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...Do the monk Ki abilities fit with the flavor of the class? Are there any themes that are missing from this ability?
Ki abilities fit the Flavor just perfect.
I wouldn’t say that themes are missing, just incomplete. For instance, The Mystic aspect of martial arts could be worked a bit more or The wrestling part, actually there is really no good reason to grapple mid battle.
I think the actual problem with monks, is that people conceive them in too many different ways.
Jason gave us an excellent and flavorful too to fix this [Ki Points]. I know many of you hate the apple work, but it's not like Monk has many things to think about.
It is possible to create, Ki Abilities Trees similar to Rage Powers that would be picked as levels are gained that if well done can give the flexibility and power needed; but more so a place to be.
I would like to emphasize that since "Ki" is a "kind of energy", some of the Ki abilities should generate some king of Force effect.
Here’s an example of a potential Ki ability (or a feat, not sure):
Name : Force Fist.
Speed : Full round action
Cost : x Ki points.
Range : Single Target between 10 and 25ft. away.
Description : Make a Ranged attack that deals xdx/x Monk Level of force damage. On a successful hit you can Spend 1 additional Ki point to bull rush the target 5ft. away.
Based on Animes/Video Games/Movies/Legends/Some-Not-so-Serious Martial Arts stiles, you can see how much this kind of ability is ingrained into the popular perception of an Unarmed combatant.
I would like to see others post their opinion regarding this point, and also their own suggested Ki abilities.
(Please someone came with an ability that justify doing a grapple mid combat.)
Sorry if it doesn't sound coherent, my English as you can see is not the
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Yeah, I think the ki pool does in fact need more abilities to choose from. One of the ideas I have been contemplating is allowing them to burn a number of ki points equal to three times the equivalent value of a weapon enchantment (+1 = 3 points, +2 = 6 points, etc.) to increase either attack power or even add a special ability to the monk. When dealing with already existing enchanted weapons, just follow the existing rules; adding a +1 onto a +1 costs the value of a +2. Of course assign a time limit, something like a number of rounds equal to their wisdom modifier of something to that effect. Additionally to regulate it so they can't just burn all their points to get the equivalent of a +5 weapon at 4th level, limit the increase to 1/2 their monk level. So a 4th level monk (chosen since thats then they get the ki pool anyway) would only be able to get a +2, and a 20th level monk would be able to get that awesome +10 total. While I'm on using it for weapon enchantments, the same could be done for armor enchantments since the monk really never utilizes armor. That way they can get those little bonuses our meat tanks and stealthy types enjoy so much.
Now, adding in new abilities for the monk would have to include a bump in the number of points they receive when leveling. Put it more on pace with the barbarian, maybe half of what they receive (2 + Wisdom modifier at 4th level, 1 + Wisdom modifier each level thereafter). Alternatively, stick with the existing formula but make it twice their level instead.
Something like the paladin's divine weapon bond might be nice too. Having some ability to add flaming, frost, shocking, disruption or what not to a monk's unarmed strike would help fix a small but glaring enhancing the monk's unarmed strike with magical effects like other character's can do to their weapons.
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Something like the paladin's divine weapon bond might be nice too. Having some ability to add flaming, frost, shocking, disruption or what not to a monk's unarmed strike would help fix a small but glaring enhancing the monk's unarmed strike with magical effects like other character's can do to their weapons.
That would be nice, I wold be happy if they at least let it add Force to the damage :)
HADOUKEN ! Ooops, sorry...
Yes, please, I see I'm not the only fan of Ki projectiles shooting Monks !
But I'm digressing; however, some ki powers that
1) give the Monk the equivalent of a Greater Magic Weapon (to help avoid the "christmas-tree syndrome" of the Amulet of Mighty Fists)
2) give the Monk some sort of energy damage to their unarmed strikes (much like the Barbarian's Elemental Rage)
3) give the Monk some ranged attacks (a thing that currently the Monk is seriously lacking), better if ki-based (and also ki-draining, to keep it balanced)
would be fine indeed.
Just my 2c.
Yeah, I think the ki pool does in fact need more abilities to choose from. One of the ideas I have been contemplating is allowing them to burn a number of ki points equal to three times the equivalent value of a weapon enchantment (+1 = 3 points, +2 = 6 points, etc.) to increase either attack power or even add a special ability to the monk.
You and I are on the same page Zer0. *grin* I was thinking the same thing, just perhaps not so expensive. Double the enchantment's bonus maybe, but how far should it deplete the Ki pool to manage that effect? Perhaps dividing the effects into external/internal effects, in that any effect that is external (with all of its subsequent effects) would cost more, since the monk is "forcing" energy outside of its normal limits? That said, any internal effect duplicating magic probably shouldn't get reduced to 1 Ki point, though.. *shrug* You're thinking what I'm thinking, but we need some funkier ones as well.
Heck, why not permanently reduce the Monk's Ki pool by the amount to "purchase" various enchantment effects for himself?
I wonder if there'll be a "collection" thread for all the sticky ideas that make a good deal of sense before the focus time is over?
My request for the Monk would be that they add abilities similar to 'FIERY FISTS' and 'VERSITILE STRIKE' to the Monks Ki Pool Powers AND perhaps even give them a 'Rogue-Talent type tree' to place them in and choose from.
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You and I are on the same page Zer0. *grin* I was thinking the same thing, just perhaps not so expensive. Double the enchantment's bonus maybe, but how far should it deplete the Ki pool to manage that effect? Perhaps dividing the effects into external/internal effects, in that any effect that is external (with all of its subsequent effects) would cost more, since the monk is "forcing" energy outside of its normal limits? That said, any internal effect duplicating magic probably shouldn't get reduced to 1 Ki point, though.. *shrug* You're thinking what I'm thinking, but we need some funkier ones as well.
Heck, why not permanently reduce the Monk's Ki pool by the amount to "purchase" various enchantment effects for himself?
I wonder if there'll be a "collection" thread for all the sticky ideas that make a good deal of sense before the focus time is over?
Well, lets see if we can't just iron this out then. The main problem I see is what would constitute an internal versus external power. We could stick with the basic system for weapons and armor enchantments: times three for weapon and times two for armor enhancements. While on the subject of cost, I took into account after the original post the non-bonus equivalent enchantments for armor (spell resistance, shadow, etc.). Best way I can figure it is find the nearest bonus cost, rounded up. For example, Glamered is listed at 2,700 so we go for a +2 enhancement bonus.
Well we should add a "charge up" feature I think...
maybe around level 8 or 10 the monk could spend ki to increase a physical stat...
Let's see, try this:
After level 8 a monk can spend a number of Ki points equal up to half his monk level to add a competence bonus to one physical stat equal to the number of ki points spent. This bonus lasts for a number of rounds equal to the monk's class level. At level 12 the monk can split this bonus among 2 physical stats, and after 16 level he can split it among all three of his physical stats. He may not have a total bonus to his stats higher than 1/2 his monk level at any given time.
Well, lets see if we can't just iron this out then. The main problem I see is what would constitute an internal versus external power. We could stick with the basic system for weapons and armor enchantments: times three for weapon and times two for armor enhancements. While on the subject of cost, I took into account after the original post the non-bonus equivalent enchantments for armor (spell resistance, shadow, etc.). Best way I can figure it is find the nearest bonus cost, rounded up. For example, Glamered is listed at 2,700 so we go for a +2 enhancement bonus.
I wouldn't really count glamered on the list for anything, as it is an effect on armor to make it look like normal clothing. However, as an example, yes, that does work. My question is, should there be a duration (if any), and if so, for how long? 2+Wis modifier in rounds? Just plain Wisdom modifier? For example, if a monk spent the ki for "Light Fortification", is that a "day" duration? Number of hours equal to the character's monk level? Permanent subtraction if that is to remain a part of the character's repetoire? Perhaps a "recharge" time for the powers, to prevent overuse (assuming it was not permanently bought)?
I'm not so worried about abuse, currently. I can't think of many ways to abuse that idea just yet, *looks to fellow Paizonians* but I would like to think that there would be some sort of visible change for some of the magical abilities. Keen would be neat, save that it would require a feat to be viable, and Brilliant Energy? *thinks, tiny smirk* I'd call for a concentration/spellcraft/or Fort save to prevent dissolution of the monk that used it, provided his school didn't specialize in it -- even then, it might just be a bonus on that save... Perhaps limit the level of the ability the ki is used for to the character's level/4? So that way, any monk character won't be able to manifest the +5 effects until their last four levels?
*ponders the idea*
Shameless plug to spread the word as it were:
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I wouldn't really count glamered on the list for anything, as it is an effect on armor to make it look like normal clothing. However, as an example, yes, that does work. My question is, should there be a duration (if any), and if so, for how long? 2+Wis modifier in rounds? Just plain Wisdom modifier? For example, if a monk spent the ki for "Light Fortification", is that a "day" duration? Number of hours equal to the character's monk level? Permanent subtraction if that is to remain a part of the character's repetoire? Perhaps a "recharge" time for the powers, to prevent overuse (assuming it was not permanently bought)?
I'm not so worried about abuse, currently. I can't think of many ways to abuse that idea just yet, *looks to fellow Paizonians* but I would like to think that there would be some sort of visible change for some of the magical abilities. Keen would be neat, save that it would require a feat to be viable, and Brilliant Energy? *thinks, tiny smirk* I'd call for a concentration/spellcraft/or Fort save to prevent dissolution of the monk that used it, provided his school didn't specialize in it -- even then, it might just be a bonus on that save... Perhaps limit the level of the ability the ki is used for to the character's level/4? So that way, any monk character won't be able to manifest the +5 effects until their last four levels?
*ponders the idea*
Glamered could have its applications but I see what you are saying with it. It just happens to be the first on the list for non-enhancement bonuses. What I was considering is just sticking with the equivalent of two spells that do something similar; Magic Weapon (1 min/lvl) and Mage Armor (1 hr/lvl), depending on the enchantment type you decide to go with. This keeps it uniform with already existing spells and gives a decent time duration for the abilities.
As for the abuse factor, the only real concern I have with it is people stacking it with items like the Amulet of Mighty Fists or Bracers of Armor. Good way around it is to simply add in a rule that limits it to not being used in conjunction with any other enchantment. Sure, it really discourages monks from picking up most of the little items but on the same token, it keeps them from having to rely on outside gear but rather the strength of the self.
In regards to the power limitations, I'll stick with what I had before: A monk cannot manifest an ability more than half their class level and cannot have a a total equivalent of enchantments equal to half their monk level. The way that breaks down, is a fourth level monk can manifest a total of a +2 enhancement, either divided between two +1 enchantments or one +2 enchantment. Further, a level 20 monk could manifest a total of a +10 enchantment bonus, distributed as they needed it.
Just to cover it while I am thinking about it, a monk should be able to manifest this power to give himself armor and melee bonuses but should have to use the power twice to do it.
It is possible to create, Ki Abilities Trees similar to Rage Powers that would be picked as levels are gained that if well done can give the flexibility and power needed; but more so a place to be.
Or we could give them a paladin's spell progression, spontaneous casting, and call them "ki abilities" instead of spells...
Kirth while your idea has merit I just don't think it's going to happen. It's nice to see you keep plugging away though.
Kirth while your idea has merit I just don't think it's going to happen. It's nice to see you keep plugging away though.
Just call me the Option Man. Anything to provide more choices with less rulebook space!
Seriously though, I'll stop now, because I think you're right -- it's not going to happen, except by houserule.
The Psychic Warrior, another Medium BAB class, has the ability at 4th level to do a Full Attack on a charge.
Now, at 4th level, this is once, maybe twice per day based on his power points.
However, this quickly starts to go up with additional levels.
I propose that in order to give the Monk a more solid niche as a "hit-and-run" combatant, he gets a Ki ability (1? 2 points?) to do a full attack on a charge, and then later maybe a full attack on a Spring Attack.
Archers already get to do more full attacks per round than standard melee types. Let's put the Monk in the same boat as them, and make use of his Flurry and improved movement speed at the same time.
Between Deflect Arrows and all high Saves, he's better suited to ranged and magical protection than regular melee combat.
Kirth while your idea has merit I just don't think it's going to happen. It's nice to see you keep plugging away though.Just call me the Option Man. Anything to provide more choices with less rulebook space!
Seriously though, I'll stop now, because I think you're right -- it's not going to happen, except by houserule.
If it were up to me, I'd go so far as to give everyone spell slots. Make magic universal, and give spell slots like we do BAB.
Then the Fighter gets spell slots that, while he may or may not use in his class abilities, can be combined while multiclassing.
And it opens the door for more magical effects in other areas. Feats could require spending a magic slot of a certain level to get a bonus effect. Items could give additional effects if you burn a slot (Titan's Maul causes an earthquake effect if you use a 4th level slot, etc). Get a feat that gives you the ability to put the Flaming weapon enhancement on your attacks... so the Fighter is good with literally any weapon, not just because of the magic doohickeys he picks up.
This would give the Fighter something more at higher levels, without making it part of his class. "People" are magical, and can do magical things with the right feats or items, while the Fighters training doesn't give them anything more than the lowest magical ability a "person" gets.
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I know it won't happen in Pathfinder though... too big a change, and makes the game something too different. I still like the idea though.
If it were up to me, I'd go so far as to give everyone spell slots. Make magic universal, and give spell slots like we do BAB. Then the Fighter gets spell slots that, while he may or may not use in his class abilities, can be combined while multiclassing.
Even better, we could give the fighter useful combat abilities that are currently "too powerful" for feats: imagine a 3rd level fighter "spell" (maneuver) useable 1/day that deals an extra 1d6 precision-based damage per point of BAB (max +10d6). This verges perilously close to Bo9S territory (which has a lot of detractors due to its "wuxia" flavor), so we'd have to be very careful to (a) make sure the abilities are not blatantly magical, and (b) make sure to name them things like "Desperate Strike" rather than "Stone Monkey kata."
giving fighter's a manuevers list kind of like the rogue's talents wouldn't hurt my feelings any, but we are on monks here...
More choices on what to do with the ki pool are diffinently needed, I agree some of these should focus on improving the monks unarmed attack, but a good mix should have out of combat abilities as well. I kind of think most anything sort of personal boost or buff should be possible with the ki pool.