Fighter: Better than best BAB

[Paul Johnson 245]

It's simple, really.

Remove the Weapon Training feature. Roll it into base BAB. He loses the bonus damage, but gains iterative attacks faster. Most importantly, however, he qualifies for feats faster.

Removes complexity (Weapon Training is awfully complex and wordy), increases power level, gives the fighter something completely unique that no other class has, and synergizes with his feat-heavy nature. To me, a win/win.

The progression would go something like this:

1: +1
2: +2
3: +3
4: +5
5: +6/+1
6: +7/+2
7: +8/+3
8: +10/+5
9: +11/+6/+1
10: +12/+7/+2
11: +13/+8/+3
12: +15/+10/+5
13: +16/+11/+6/+1
14: +17/+12/+7/+2
15: +18/+13/+8/+3
16: +20/+15/+10/+5
17: +21/+16/+11/+6/+1
18: +22/+17/+12/+7/+2
19: +23/+18/+13/+8/+3
20: +25/+20/+15/+10/+5

[Threeshades]

Paul Johnson 245 wrote:

It's simple, really.

Remove the Weapon Training feature. Roll it into base BAB. He loses the bonus damage, but gains iterative attacks faster. Most importantly, however, he qualifies for feats faster.

Removes complexity (Weapon Training is awfully complex and wordy), increases power level, gives the fighter something completely unique that no other class has, and synergizes with his feat-heavy nature. To me, a win/win.

The progression would go something like this:

1: +1
2: +2
3: +3
4: +5
5: +6/+1
6: +7/+2
7: +8/+3
8: +10/+5
9: +11/+6/+1
10: +12/+7/+2
11: +13/+8/+3
12: +15/+10/+5
13: +16/+11/+6/+1
14: +17/+12/+7/+2
15: +18/+13/+8/+3
16: +20/+15/+10/+5
17: +21/+16/+11/+6/+1
18: +22/+17/+12/+7/+2
19: +23/+18/+13/+8/+3
20: +25/+20/+15/+10/+5

Over the top. They'd get ridiculously powerful, effectively having the attacks of a normal full BAB character +1 at an extra +5 (that even gets doubled with a speed weapon)

In addition the fighter would get half of his levels as dead levels again.
Also the weapon training feature isn't very complex at all I think. You simply get an increasing bonus with specific groups of weapons. I dont see anything wrong about that.

[hogarth]

Interesting...I kind of like it!

[Kirth Gersen]

Threeshades wrote:

(that even gets doubled with a speed weapon)

Speed weapons add 1 attack, I thought; they don't double your number.

[Abraham spalding]

And what happens when someone dips fighter for 4 levels for the + 5 BAB then leaves again?

[hogarth]

Abraham spalding wrote:

And what happens when someone dips fighter for 4 levels for the + 5 BAB then leaves again?

Do you really think that extra +1 BAB will destroy the balance of the game?

(Note that the OP is wrong: Weapon Training starts at level 5, not level 4.)

[Abraham spalding]

Yes and no both, most people that dip fighter dip 4 levels max, now they have extra reason to do so. If the extra +1 happens on level 5 I think it would work better.

If you where to do an gish type wizard you could with this take fighter 4 Eldritch knight 10 wizard 6 and have 8th level spells and a BAB of 18, instead of 17. Not a lot but it just backs the regular fighters up a little more into their corner.

I'm seeing this as a none fix, becuase it doesn't give the fighter something unique that isn't still as benefical to dipping and fixes the basic problems of the fighter.

The idea has some merit, it's just not there yet as a fix.

[Threeshades]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Threeshades wrote:

(that even gets doubled with a speed weapon)

Speed weapons add 1 attack, I thought; they don't double your number.

I didnt mean your bonus gets doubled but that you get an additional attack at +25 along with all the attacks a normal full BAB character would get.

+25/+25/+20/+15/+10/+5

That's a heck of a lot of attacks. With the fighters current damage output they'll go a little much over the top.

I think I should also mention that a completely new BAB progression seems kind of inconsequential to me.

[Kirth Gersen]

Yeah; really I see the fighter is lacking in
1. Being unable to disrupt spellcasting (caster just moves away and casts);
2. Being unable to guard his friends (people just walk around him); and
3. Being unable to act in response to what's going on around him.

If he could trade attacks for movement, and hold attacks and movement for use as immediate actions later on in the round, those would address his core deficiencies better than giving him extra attacks as part of the full attack action he hardly ever gets to use.

[Xaaon of Xen'Drik]

I like weapon training.

I don't like your proposed system.

[seekerofshadowlight]

I don't think better BAB is the right way to do it. Fighter only feats that allow many of Keith's ideals are the way to go

[MegaPlex]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Yeah; really I see the fighter is lacking in

1. Being unable to disrupt spellcasting (caster just moves away and casts);
2. Being unable to guard his friends (people just walk around him); and
3. Being unable to act in response to what's going on around him.

If he could trade attacks for movement, and hold attacks and movement for use as immediate actions later on in the round, those would address his core deficiencies better than giving him extra attacks as part of the full attack action he hardly ever gets to use.

100% agreement here. Fighter does not need more ways to deal more damage, he needs more options for battlefield control.

[toyrobots]

I actually suggested this exact same idea in another thread.

Even so, I think the fighter would be better served by other changes, since it isn't really his BAB that's failing him. It's the ever increasing irrelevance of melee combat at mid to high level.

[Epic Meepo]

toyrobots wrote:

I actually suggested this exact same idea in another thread.

Actually, so did I.

And I also came to the conclusion that other changes would work better; in my case, because backwards compatibility would be hurt by changing the fighters BAB. (Though I did agree about fighters needing to qualify for feats faster, and would have supported a straight BAB boost if backwards compatibility weren't an issue.)

[ledgabriel]

MegaPlex wrote:

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Yeah; really I see the fighter is lacking in

1. Being unable to disrupt spellcasting (caster just moves away and casts);
2. Being unable to guard his friends (people just walk around him); and
3. Being unable to act in response to what's going on around him.

If he could trade attacks for movement, and hold attacks and movement for use as immediate actions later on in the round, those would address his core deficiencies better than giving him extra attacks as part of the full attack action he hardly ever gets to use.

100% agreement here. Fighter does not need more ways to deal more damage, he needs more options for battlefield control.

]

+1 support here! Excellent idea, trade some attacks for small instant moves would be great.

Jason, if possible, try to give it some thought. Oh, and remove that Int bonus limit to Combat Expertise, unless you are playing a Nobel prize winner fighter, the feat is useless.