If you notice, the flaws with the class are stated at the beginning of this thread and have to do with the inconsistancies in the Bard's Performance abilities.
I notice that you dont'address any of the five points in your thread
Please address the issues stated as the relevant issues of this thread.
Please get off your high horse before you hurt yourself and try actually reading more than just my most recent post. I've addressed more than one of those five statements in this thread.
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Please get off your high horse before you hurt yourself and try actually reading more than just my most recent post. I've addressed more than one of those five statements in this thread.If you notice, the flaws with the class are stated at the beginning of this thread and have to do with the inconsistancies in the Bard's Performance abilities.
I notice that you dont'address any of the five points in your thread
Please address the issues stated as the relevant issues of this thread.
Please stop trolling.
Please stop trolling.
Please stop trolling.
Zurai: You aren't addressing the five flaws stated in this there, and therefore are off topic. I'm not on a high horse, just trying to keep you on topic. You've bringing up valid points...if we were all having a discussing about whatever it is you keep bringing up. (lol) Sorry man, I don't mean to poke fun, but lighten up, and, if you could please, point for point, address each of the five issues deemed relevant in this thread.
I have addressed them. The fact that you choose to ignore this, yet I'm the one called out for "trolling", is hypocrisy at its finest.
Not sure I really understand the lvl 4 thing you are trying to illustrate.
"At 4th level, choose a number of Perform skills equal to your Intelligence modifier. You are considered to have ranks in each of those skills equal to the highest number of ranks you have in any one Perform skill."
I think I'd simplify it, make it progressive, and remove the Intelligence dependency:
"At 4th level, choose any one Perform skill. You are considered to have ranks in that type of performance equal to the highest number of ranks you have in any one Perform skill. At 8th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, choose an additional Perform skill which gains this benefit."
Other than making the sight/sound split moot (unless a restriction on "same sensory class" is put on the performances you can select), I don't think it has much impact on the concerns of this thread; pretty cool idea for flavor, tho. :)
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Here's the fixes we brought to the bard IMC. We are currently playtesting these through some 3.5 Realms hardcover adventures...
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First, we gave bards 8 skill points per level, on TOP of the existing free knowledge point AND gave it a new free perform point (see PRPG bard rules for the "free knowledge point" explanation).
We then made perform a bit like linguistics: every two ranks grant you one of the eight perform categories: sing, strings, percussions, winds, acting, oratory, etc.) This makes the bard proficient in all 8 "artforms" by level 16... not too overpowered if you ask me, as the nuances between each "performing art" affect the game little (PRPG has some nice rules on certain bardic musics, which uses these nuances, but other than that... the other D&D rules care little what kind of "performance" you are doing, which effectively, proves a point: only bards need two or more different perform skills anyway...)
To make it more fun/complete, we gave a "favored perform art" feature to the bard, which grants +2 to one type of perform check, in a scheme/progression similar to the ranger's favored enemy (i.e. level 1, +2 to perform art 1; level 5, +4 to perform art 1, +2 to perform art 2; level 10, +4/+4/+2; level 15, +4/+4/+4/+2; level 20, +6/+4/+4/+2/+2)
To recap:
BARD ///Perform Skills///
LEVEL /#1/#2/#3/#4/#5/
level 1: /+2/ / / / /
level 5: /+4/+2/ / / /
level 10: /+4/+4/+2/ / /
level 15: /+4/+4/+4/+2/ /
level 20: /+6/+4/+4/+2/+2/
So by level 16, all 8 perform types are learned, and by level 20, 5 perform types have the above bonuses (not including masterwork instrument bonus, if applicable; i.e. perform sing cannot be enhanced via masterwork or magical instrument bonuses, and would be a good candidate for the "primary" +6 bonus for a level 20 bard...)
Thoughts?
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Yeah... 10 skill pts/level was my secret agenda... :)
Guilty as charged... he he he! the Paizo boards have a way to attract people with math skills it seems.
But yes, seriously: my original concept was 10 skill pts/level, but with the free knowledge and free perform, I scaled it back to 8 pts. My reasoning is that rogues get 8 pts/level, and that putting a bard with 8 pts/level with a free knowledge pt would normally make it a 9 pts class... but because they NEED perform for their main class ability, they are really just a 8pts/level class. And my goal was to make them kick everybody else's arse in terms of skill pts/level.
Therefore, to do this, 8pts + free perf + free knowledge kindof achieves this (effective 9pts class, again, if you don't count perform... which is mandatory for a bard...)
Cheers!
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Absolutely. High skill points could be the saving grace of this class.
If you're already a caster (wiz or clr), you wouldn't dip into a class with another, separate spell progression regardless (assuming you want to keep your caster level as high as possible).
If you're a fighting type, you'd probably dip into rogue for the sneak damage rather than bard (especially when rogue has 8 skill points and the bard has 6... so no brainer here).
However, a bard with 8 or 10 skill pts / level, with the current bardic knowledge system (which grants you all knowledge skills at no cost) and perhaps a free perform, would *start* to be an appealing option for a quick dip...
--> wizards or loremasters, with high int, would love this new bardic knowledge system, especially!
--> and fighters who wish to get a bit of skill advantage with acrobatics to tumble in melee perhaps or bluff to feint in combat would love this as well...
--> paladin, who benefit from high CHA, would perhaps get the greatest mileage from levels in bard... Hmm... paladin/bard... hmm... THAT'S my next character my friends! especially a PRPG rules paladin/bard!!! yesssss!!!!
Deadly performance is one thing that ruining things for the bard. Remove it and give the bard more songs and:
A) make the bard use songs/performances as a swift actions at higher levels
B) or / and make the bard combine songs/performances.
C) give the bard more versitile songs/performances
D) don't boost the spells. Boost their songs. Make the class unique, don't make it compete with the socerer.
E) don't make moral bonus a bard only thing but remove heroism and greater heroism from the wizard/socerer spell list.
F) Don't give high levels spells to the bard at lower spell levels. (Stuff like tongues and heroism). This will only lead to abuse (cheap wands, potions etc.) Either give the bard togues as a spell like ability or make the bard use tongues by spending a use of his/her songs.
Also giving the bard charm monster as a level 3 spell is not a solution since the DC will suck. (also because the bard can not boost the charisma tha same way a wizard boost his int or as a cleic bost her wisdom or as a socerer boosts her charisma. Why? the bard needs a little bit aof everything).
G)Adjust the spell list slightly. See invisibility as a level 2 spell and give them bull's strength and some other utility spells. (But don't focus on spells)
H) Boost the songs and make them only last as long as the ally percieves the bard‘s performance and for 1 round thereafter. Now no one wants to take the bard out because: 1)the bard sucks, 2) even if one takes the bard out the effect still lasts for 5 rounds.
I) Don't make the bard a fighter or an archer. He/she should be a bard.
J) Give the bard Proficiency long bow. A hafling with a short bow = joke.
K) Give the bard more skills per level (8)
L) Give the bard trapfinding and evasion.
M) give the bard collages or/and talents (and talent trees).
N) Don't give the bard full BAB. He's not a fighter.
O) Make songs like Inspire Competence usefull.
P) Boost Inspire Courage. Make the foes wanna nuke the bard.
Q) Give the bard performances to help the party resist / avoid gaze attacks. Something even the cleric can't do. And this is fits the bard.
R) Give the bard performances to remove stunning effects, etc.
S) Give the bard more healing (especially at higher levels). Perhaps as an option by choosing a talent tree or collages.
T) Give the bard some damage ability. Especially vs. undead and other that are immune to charmimg effects.
U) give the bard Dimension Door and teleport spells. Fits with their profile. Brads that travels the world is seach of wonder and adventure and knowledge.
V) Give them more spells known, but nor more spells per day. Knowledge is one of their things. Fits they should know many spells.
X) Give them summon monster 1 - IX. Possibly as spell like abilities. If they can't do damage they can get help. Perhaps this way: At level 1 they can summon SM! once per day. At level 3 they can use SM2 instead. At level 5 they can use SM3 instead etc. If they don't get
Y) give them detect law at will
Z) Do anything. just make the bard a NPC class and focus on songs/performances, not on spells. And the Bard should only have to boost perform as one skill, not as four skils or five skills or tejn skills. Perhaps just let the bard add one type of perform for every 3 ranks in perform. ..or something.