The Bard has several glaring issues that deserve to be fixed:
A) My main issue with the bard involves the existence of the Perform skill, doubly so since Pathfinder asks that bards take at least two Perform skills to gain their class abilities.
My question is: why? The Perform skill doesn't actually do much of anything on its own, other than as a measure of a performer's talent. It does nothing that cannot be replicated by a Profession skill. It doesn't change disposition, it doesn't impress an audience, it doesn't gain glory for the subject of a Bard's tale. The skill Perform is meaningless!
Why not remove the skill entirely, or at least roll it into other skills, like Diplomacy (to impress an audience) or Intimidate (to scare a rival performer), (As a side note, why the Bard does not get Intimidate as a class skill, especially when the Virtuoso[CAdv], perhaps the most bard-geared prestige class, requires 4x Intimidate, is beyond me.) as all Perform really does is force the Bard to drain skill points just to use his class abilities.
I currently see two solutions:
-Remove the Perform skill entirely, as it doesn't really do anything.
or
-Expand upon the Perform skill, so it would actually do something. Add mechanics for impressing an individual, for example, rather than relying on "DC 30 = extraordinary," which really doesn't mean anything in game terms. As it stands, Perform doesn't change attitudes, it doesn't earn glory; all it does is let you peddle for cash, which is covered by Profession.
B) Bard is the only class whose class abilities require a skill point expenditure. Does a rogue have to max out Stealth to use Sneak Attack? Does a druid have to max out Knowledge(Nature) to use Wild Shape? Does a Cleric have to max out Knowledge(Religion) to use Channel Energy? No. But a Bard has to max out Perform to use Bardic Music. And Pathfinder Beta goes a step further, requiring a Bard to max out a second Perform category.
Thus, 3.5 made the Bard go from being a 6+Int skill class to a 5+Int skill class; Pathfinder seeks to make it into a 4+Int skill class, just like Druid or Monk. Is draining the Bard's skill points, reducing its usefulness as a skill-based class, really necessary?
I currently see four solutions:
-Remove the Perform skill requirements, as all it does is force the bard to drain skill points (on a skill I've established does not do anything), turning it into a 4+Int skill class.
or
-Let the Bard player pick X types of Perform; he gains bonus skill ranks in those Perform types for free every level.
or
-Give the bard bonus skill points to spend on Perform.
or
-Make the Bard an 8+Int skill class, to compensate for the skill point drain.
Other Bardic issues:
C)Why doesn't the Bard have Intimidate as a class skill?
D)Give higher-level Bards the ability to activate Bardic Music faster than as a standard action. A Wiz13 can cast Quickened Haste, yet the Bard is still stuck spending his standard action on Inspire Courage. Or at least spell out how long Inspire Courage can last. When I watched Return of the King most recently, I noticed that King Theoden would inspire his troops before going into battle, not during it. That's what Bards should be able to do: inspire the party all the time, perhaps even with his very presence, not only after the battle has begun.
E)Reserve the morale bonus for the Bard, as they have a hard time filling a buff role when they're constantly in competition with the other classes. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (SpC) was particularly damaging to the Bard, for example. A Sorcerer with Heroism also makes the Bard less important, as Heroism lasts 10min/lvl, adds to saves and skill checks, and doesn't have to be activated every combat. The damage begins as early as level 1, when the Cleric's Bless doesn't stack with Inspire Courage. When other classes try, they can outdo the Bard, simply by having a morale-bonus buff as well as other abilities. That's not a good thing. We should fix that.
The Bard is in desperate need of an overhaul; fortunately, we're in an excellent position to give the Bard the love and care it deserves.
-Matt
Addressing a small issue, but an important one:
The Bard's singing should either be a unique bonus or morale bonuses should stack. You are absolutely right in stating that the song's usefulness goes straight out the window when common mid-level spells come into play.
And it should make up for giving up the ability to take a standard action, to continue to concentrate. Otherwise you end up with a bard that performs once every 5ish rounds then stops letting the bonus linger while preforming other tasks just to return to it becuase he has 20 uses of this ability and it's more efficent to use and lose a couple of times than to carry the bonus round after round.
A) I'm in favor of giving Perform some cool concrete uses. That's much more interesting than eliminating it, and doesn't really effect backwards compatibility at all.
B) I'd be ok with giving the Bard an automatic skill rank each level into a perform skill, though I don't think it's especially necessary, especially because of Pathfinder's skill consolidations.
C) Dunno. Why not give it to them?
D) Maybe as a feat?
E) Why not let Morale bonuses stack? We can't reserve it for the Bard because that requires too much rewriting, and we can't rewrite splatbooks. Maybe the bard's morale bonus stacks with all other morale bonuses? Or alternatelly, we just make bardic music so darn good that it's always the better option.
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Addressing a small issue, but an important one:
The Bard's singing should either be a unique bonus or morale bonuses should stack. You are absolutely right in stating that the song's usefulness goes straight out the window when common mid-level spells come into play.
I would agree to this. In all our SRD/3.5 games, the bard's usefulness at low levels quickly evaporated. I would suggest making the bonuses a bard can grant 'bardic bonuses' and allow them to stack.
I completely agree on intimidate.
For the 'two types of perform' question, I -really- like that there are now more ways to use bardic music.
I wonder if the change to two types of skills was a deliberate attempt to scale down the power of bardic fascination at higher levels. As a person who has played a 16th level bard, I have to say that a +41 perform will beat most of will saves.
Forcing bards to have two skills, I think, was a poorly concieved attempt to prevent those numbers from creeping too high in high level play. As if a bard would alternate skill points between sing and dance.
In reality, bardinc performance is what makes a bard, and therefore most bards will drop another skill in order to have perform rock solid.
This defeats the pupose of skill consolidation, and effectively shorts the bard on skills. I don't like it, and I think the easiest fix is to give both bard and rogue 8 skill points a level.
-----------------------------------------------
And in response to the previous post, wizards and clerics absolutely -did- need a skill to be viable. It was called Concentration.
Most high-INT wizards could afford it, and most supposedly charismatic clerics and sorcerors coudn't argue their way out of a paper bag, because a 8 int cleric/sorceror had one skill, and guess what it normally was?
Good, it seems my thoughts on the sorely-needed Bard fixes are on the correct track.
-Matt
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1) & 2) i agree that it strangles the bard asking him to use his perform skill to be able to use one of his class skills... its the only class asking it...
ok its fine, every abrd should at least take one skill... but even before we arrive to skills, and its becasue its an issue with the class... why we don't take a leason from 'Linguistics' and return tothe Perform of 3.0 where you gained a perform for every level rank you gained? if its to much... then she can earn 1 perform every 3 levels...
its not always necesary... but it depends on thekind of bard, for example a varisian who is supposed to dance, since and play a song while dancing... is asked tohave 3 different performs to be able to do her job... is this right?
3) definitively, intimidate should be a bard skill
4) this i would left as a feat "Quicken 'Perform'" but its abit absurd since the perform requieres sometime to work, and some ofthe times it continues to be used while the bard acts... at high level i would make it a "move action"
5) i say stack the moral bonuses
PS... can someone explain how a Bard gets a DC 41 at level 16?
PS... can someone explain how a Bard gets a DC 41 at level 16?
Let's see, it's been a while....
Max ranks in perform = 19
Charisma of 22 = +6
Cloak of Charisma +6 +3
Circlet of Persuasion +3
and roll a 10 or better.
And that's without Skill Focus (perform); a MW instrument; the Nymph's Kiss feat, the Prayer spell, the marshal aura Motivate Charisma, or anything else which might help.
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PS... can someone explain how a Bard gets a DC 41 at level 16?
Let's see, it's been a while....
Max ranks in perform = 19
Charisma of 22 = +6
Cloak of Charisma +6 +3
Circlet of Persuasion +3and roll a 10 or better.
And that's without Skill Focus (perform); a MW instrument; the Nymph's Kiss feat, the Prayer spell, the marshal aura Motivate Charisma, or anything else which might help.
mmm
thanks rkraus2then you can only get +35 (i never take into account magica items... both because i don't use magic shops, nor do i expect the game to have it... i left them for Traditional RPG Videogames)
that means that normal bards would have a bit lower DC for their perform (also i account for rounded characters... whcih means i wills urely not get more than 18 in charisma... we use point buy... but even with dice, the best charisma i could get was 17... and i need to round a few things... maybe cha 20 for that level... maybe)
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I do belive it could exist some special skill called "Bardic Performance" that works in similar way to Bardic Knowledge and Wild Empathy. Something that improve without any need to spend skill points.
"Bardic Performance" would give a bard expertise on a number of music instruments equal to his Charisma modifier. It would be used to fullfil his class feature requirements, with a few selection of instruments (this number could improve with feats or at higher levels).
And I would keep the regular performance skill the way it is now.
luciopim
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A) I Agree, Some alternate Solutions
#1 Substantial Performance Skill) I'd like to see the Perform Skill provide a skill based Morale Bonus, Dependant on the DC, which stacks. Maybe start with a +1 at DC 10, +2 at DC 15, +3 at DC 20, etc.
#2 Perform DCs only for Bardic Music) Get rid of the level requirement for Bardic Music, and add 10 to the ranks required to get the DC of producing that spell. Make a Feat that gives you access to a specific bardic music, which the bards all get for free at the proper levels. Bards can then choose to take them early, and recoup that feat when they gain it as a class feature, and others can have some music awesomeness without diluting the bard.
B) Concur, Alternate Solution assuming that Perform will actually be made to do something useful.
#1 Bard Class Feature). You are considered to have as many Perform skills as 1+ your Charisma Modifier, at the ranking of your highest perform skill.
C & D) Concur
E) I'd instead prefer if the Bard's Morale bonus stacked, see A1.
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I disagree. The two classes of bardic performance are supposed to be equally powered options akin to different domains. They are designed to allow the bard to have distinct flavours that make sense. In the old system, you could countersong with the power of interpretative dance, after all. Would that be better?
Additionally, the Bard now gains Bardic Knowledge which is an additional skill point. He also gains a bonus of half level on ALL knowledge checks. Or, if you prefer, the equivalent of an additional 10 skill points per 2 levels (or 5 points per level). That's a lot of skill savings and does not take into account the fact that the Bard benefits from several of the skill consolidations such as Stealth, Perception, Diplomacy/Gather Information, Linguistics, and Spellcraft at the least.
So, in short, I disagree with the premise of the request.
EDIT: Rogue has to max out Perception and Disable Device to use Trapfinding in effect if not in actuality. Rangers need to max out Survival to use Track. All spellcasters are taxed with Spellcraft if they want to cast defensively. So, no, it's not that the Bard is the only class that has a skill requirement to use his class features. It might be the only one with an explicit requirement, but the others have skill taxes too.
EDIT 2: Items C and D (with the proviso that it's a high level ability to extend the duration of a Bardic Performance ability) I support, however.
Rogue has to max out Perception and Disable Device to use Trapfinding in effect if not in actuality. Rangers need to max out Survival to use Track. All spellcasters are taxed with Spellcraft if they want to cast defensively. So, no, it's not that the Bard is the only class that has a skill requirement to use his class features. It might be the only one with an explicit requirement, but the others have skill taxes too.
Even if you were right (to which I've already posted my disagreement), that doesn't solve the issue of Perform not doing anything. The Pathfinder Beta Bard is still a 4+Int skill class.
-Matt
And the "ranks" that the bard gets on knowledge skills (with the exception of the 1 given skill point) are not ranks. They are a class bonus on some skills. As such they don't do some of the things real skills do like qualify for prestige classes.
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Even if you were right (to which I've already posted my disagreement), that doesn't solve the issue of Perform not doing anything. The Pathfinder Beta Bard is still a 4+Int skill class.
-Matt
Perform not doing anything is not at all the same as the bard being a 4+Int class. Even accepting your presentation of a Performance requirement effectively reducing the class' skills (which is indisputably an oversimplification), the bard is still a 5+Int+1 Knowledge skill class. You do not need two different Perform skills to access most of the class' abilities. The class' current design is explicitly set up so that getting all the class' abilities requires an additional outlay of resources, because it's intended as an upgrade of the power level. Honestly, except for flavor reasons, I don't know that I would bother buying two different Perform skills. It seems like a lot of skill points to blow just to get access to the last three class abilties - but the fact that I have a choice as to whether I want to spend those resources for those abilities means that there is a meaningful difference between the Pathfinder bard and the automatic skill point reduction you are presenting.
Creative Director
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Here's my thoughts on the matter...
A) My main issue with the bard involves the existence of the Perform skill, doubly so since Pathfinder asks that bards take at least two Perform skills to gain their class abilities.
I'd rather not remove the Perform skill, since it DOES give characters some cool background stuff in the same way Craft and Profession do. I'd be okay with revising the skill though; perhaps making it a bit more useful in some ways. Having played plenty of bards, I know that at high levels DC 30 isn't a problem at all. I think that the categories for performances should probably be expanded, and maybe have better results for higher ones. Maybe a DC 30 Perform check increases your fame in the region and gives you a +2 bonus on Gather Information and Diplomacy and Bluff checks in the area for a day? Stuff like that. Might even be worth working a subsystem for fame and glory into Perform, to be honest, since the skill's as much about making money as it is about increasing your reputation.
B) Bard is the only class whose class abilities require a skill point expenditure. Does a rogue have to max out Stealth to use Sneak Attack? Does a druid have to max out Knowledge(Nature) to use Wild Shape? Does a Cleric have to max out Knowledge(Religion) to use Channel Energy? No. But a Bard has to max out Perform to use Bardic Music. And Pathfinder Beta goes a step further, requiring a Bard to max out a second Perform category.
Skills are very much the bard's forte, of course, so it makes sense that his powers are skill-based. If it weren't such a HUGE revision, I'd be interested in adding a "bard bonus" to each skill, something that if a bard hits, say, rank 10 in a skill, he gets as a bonus ability, thereby turning skills into a new track for powers for bards. That's too huge a change, alas. I also don't really want to give the bard bonus skill points for perform. Giving the bard get 8 skill points/level seems like the most graceful fix. Or perhaps a system of "Virtual" perform skills (every 5 levels or so, he gets to add a new performance type to his main perform skill, so at 15th level, a bard would be equally good at song, dance, oratory, and wind instruments, for example).
C)Why doesn't the Bard have Intimidate as a class skill?
That's a good question. They should have Intimidate as a class skill. Anyone who thinks bards can't be intimidating hasn't seen a rock star run amok in public or a reporter subtly use his wits to infer great harm on a politician.
D)Give higher-level Bards the ability to activate Bardic Music faster than as a standard action. A Wiz13 can cast Quickened Haste, yet the Bard is still stuck spending his standard action on Inspire Courage. Or at least spell out how long Inspire Courage can last. When I watched Return of the King most recently, I noticed that King Theoden would inspire his troops before going into battle, not during it. That's what Bards should be able to do: inspire the party all the time, perhaps even with his very presence, not only after the battle has begun.
Interesting ideas. Jason's working on something along these lines right now, I think... I'll double check with him on Monday though.
E)Reserve the morale bonus for the Bard, as they have a hard time filling a buff role when they're constantly in competition with the other classes. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (SpC) was particularly damaging to the Bard, for example. A Sorcerer with Heroism also makes the Bard less important, as Heroism lasts 10min/lvl, adds to saves and skill checks, and doesn't have to be activated every combat. The damage begins as early as level 1, when the Cleric's Bless doesn't stack with Inspire Courage. When other classes try, they can outdo the Bard, simply by having a morale-bonus buff as well as other abilities. That's not a good thing. We should fix that.
This is also a good point. In the same way knock or find traps had a tendency to downplay the rouge, spells like good hope and bless tend to step on the bard's toes. It's worse when you realize that bards can cast a lot of those spells, but by the time that he gets the spells, his bardic performance is a better option anyway. Might be too much to say morale bonuses stack. The simple solution is to say that bardic performance morale bonuses stack with all other morale bonuses (except other bardic performance bonuses, of course). In any event, of the five points you raise, this one's the most keen and important, I think, and one that's been overlooked for far too long. I'll certainly be pointing this out ad nauseum to Jason! :)
I agree with the sentiments here. Frankly, it's more the 'color' implications that annoy me about Perform being broken up into so many sub-groups - yeah, if you want to dance, sing, and play an instrument you need more skill points than most classes even have. Is Perform (dance) really as useful to ANYONE other than a bard as Acrobatics or Spellcraft? No, so it shouldn't be a skill that costs as much. (No one's going to blow skill points on "fun for the character to have" skills when many skills are more life-and-deathy.) I'd prefer one Perform skill that there's some kind of differentiation within as people have suggested - one "form" every X levels, or whatever.
Plus, a lot of the differentiations don't make sense. I can't Fascinate with dance? Tell that to all the strippers out there :-P
That's a good question. They should have Intimidate as a class skill. Anyone who thinks bards can't be intimidating hasn't seen a rock star run amok in public or a reporter subtly use his wits to infer great harm on a politician.
Or heard a barbarian skald singing a rousing tune about his forefathers tearing the heads off of the forefathers of the people he is currently performing for . . .
Or perhaps a system of "Virtual" perform skills (every 5 levels or so, he gets to add a new performance type to his main perform skill, so at 15th level, a bard would be equally good at song, dance, oratory, and wind instruments, for example).
I think something like this would be a pretty good solution just because some of the 3.5 stuff out there has Perform type requirements. Several magic items in the Magic Item Compendium not only have Perform type requirements, but some require you to make checks in those perform types to use them. No other class is so throttled on access to magic items designed for that class. By way of analogy to cleric domains, I've never seen a Cleric item that required access to a specific domain.
On the other hand, having the bard abilities split like that is nifty. But the consequence amounts to having the option to trade away some of your powers in order to maintain one extra skill. That might be worth it for some character concepts, but it's otherwise not very tempting. I would be tempted to simply house-rule it something like this: 2 performance types at 1st level, and extra one every so many levels. The problem with that is that it's then not clear why it needs to be a skill at all. You no longer make a perform check to use the associated powers, though you can do so to earn money as a street musician (the utility of which drops off quickly after, say, 0th level). Okay, some magic items out there require perform checks. But otherwise Perform as a skill acts only as an opportunity cost and not a usable gameplay mechanic.
E) Reserve the morale bonus for the Bard, as they have a hard time filling a buff role when they're constantly in competition with the other classes. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (SpC) was particularly damaging to the Bard, for example. A Sorcerer with Heroism also makes the Bard less important, as Heroism lasts 10min/lvl, adds to saves and skill checks, and doesn't have to be activated every combat. The damage begins as early as level 1, when the Cleric's Bless doesn't stack with Inspire Courage. When other classes try, they can outdo the Bard, simply by having a morale-bonus buff as well as other abilities. That's not a good thing. We should fix that.
Several people have voted to make morale bonuses stack. For example
E) Why not let Morale bonuses stack? We can't reserve it for the Bard because that requires too much rewriting, and we can't rewrite splatbooks. Maybe the bard's morale bonus stacks with all other morale bonuses? Or alternatelly, we just make bardic music so darn good that it's always the better option.
So if I understand this issue correctly, we can't make morale bonus exclusive to bards because that means taking it away from the cleric's bless spell, etc. But I don't think we can make them stack either, because that breaks backward compatibility just as badly. For example, bless is not supposed to stack with remove fear, which provides a +4 morale bonus against fear. In general, different spells that provide the same bonus type are not supposed to stack.
BlaineTog suggests making the bard's morale bonus an exception, letting it stack with all other morale bonuses. Fortunately, the rules already provide a cleaner way to do that: find a different keyword for the Inspire Courage bonus, so that it stacks with morale bonuses without invoking an exception.
That got me wondering what are all the different bonus types. I was surprised to find that they are not listed anywhere in one place, neither in Pathfinder nor in 3.5e PHB, so I grepped around and came up with the following (probably incomplete) list:
Bonus Types:
ability
armor
base attack
base save
circumstance
combat maneuver
competence
deflection
dodge
enhancement
favored enemy
favored terrain
insight
luck
morale
natural armor
racial
resistance
shield
size
I think in 3e, only dodge bonuses stack with each other.
So the name of the Inspire Courage ability already provides us with the new keyword: inspiration. Sure, it sounds a lot like morale, but someone can probably make up a reason why it's qualitatively different, and anyway, all we need is a different keyword to allow stacking.
I'd rather not remove the Perform skill, since it DOES give characters some cool background stuff in the same way Craft and Profession do. I'd be okay with revising the skill though; perhaps making it a bit more useful in some ways. Having played plenty of bards, I know that at high levels DC 30 isn't a problem at all. I think that the categories for performances should probably be expanded, and maybe have better results for higher ones. Maybe a DC 30 Perform check increases your fame in the region and gives you a +2 bonus on Gather Information and Diplomacy and Bluff checks in the area for a day? Stuff like that. Might even be worth working a subsystem for fame and glory into Perform, to be honest, since the skill's as much about making money as it is about increasing your reputation.
This is a tough one, as we'd basically be creating a brand-new skill from scratch. At first thought, I would consider letting Perform synergize with skills like Diplomacy and Gather Information, with every five ranks of Perform adding +2 to other skills if Perform can be used to assist. It makes sense, because the focus shifts towards what Perform is actually used for, like raising or lowering disposition.
However, Pathfinder did remove synergy skills. I will have to think on this.
Skills are very much the bard's forte, of course, so it makes sense that his powers are skill-based. If it weren't such a HUGE revision, I'd be interested in adding a "bard bonus" to each skill, something that if a bard hits, say, rank 10 in a skill, he gets as a bonus ability, thereby turning skills into a new track for powers for bards. That's too huge a change, alas. I also don't really want to give the bard bonus skill points for perform. Giving the bard get 8 skill points/level seems like the most graceful fix. Or perhaps a system of "Virtual" perform skills (every 5 levels or so, he gets to add a new performance type to his main perform skill, so at 15th level, a bard would be equally good at song, dance, oratory, and wind instruments, for example).
I put some thinking into this, and if we combine it with making the Perform skill do something, then 8+Int skill points per level could work. At the moment, the Rogue is the premier skill-based class, largely due to 8+Int skill points. This way, the Bard emerges as closer to the Rogue's equal rather than its lesser. I'll have to consider the multiclassing implications.
That's a good question. They should have Intimidate as a class skill. Anyone who thinks bards can't be intimidating hasn't seen a rock star run amok in public or a reporter subtly use his wits to infer great harm on a politician.
Yeah, giving Bards Intimidate... this one's a given.
Interesting ideas. Jason's working on something along these lines right now, I think... I'll double check with him on Monday though.
What I'm also noticing from other threads is a certain amount of confusion over maintaining a Bard's song. Apparently, there are still players out there who believe that using Inspire Courage costs a Bard his standard action every round, when in reality the Bard only needs to spend his standard action to begin the song, while no action is required to maintain it. These rules, apparently, need to be reworded.
What I'd like to see involves a Bard eventually getting to the point where can maintain his Bard's song as an aura. Just being in an effective leader's presence, or heck, just the knowledge that one is following the leader's agenda, can be enough to inspire morale. In a party-based skirmish system for combat, it would make sense for an effective Bard to inspire his comrades just by being around them. Perhaps the Perform skill could be rolled to determine how long after leaving the Bard's presence does the morale bonus continue to linger?
Another thought for higher-level Bards would be to bring in the Combine Songs ability from various 3.5 prestige classes, which allowed a Bard to activate multiple variations of Bardic Music at once. By extension, that would mean eventually maintaining multiple auras at a time.
This is also a good point. In the same way knock or find traps had a tendency to downplay the rouge, spells like good hope and bless tend to step on the bard's toes. It's worse when you realize that bards can cast a lot of those spells, but by the time that he gets the spells, his bardic performance is a better option anyway. Might be too much to say morale bonuses stack. The simple solution is to say that bardic performance morale bonuses stack with all other morale bonuses (except other bardic performance bonuses, of course). In any event, of the five points you raise, this one's the most keen and important, I think, and one that's been overlooked for far too long. I'll certainly be pointing this out ad nauseum to Jason! :)
Yeah, that is the simple solution, though you would get issues like stacking Heroism with Inspire Courage. This issue is a very necessary one to solve, as the "buff overlap" really wrecks the Bard's effectiveness as a buffing character.
-Matt
mattastorphic I like the aura idea, but I would worry about stepping on the paladin's toes with all his aura abilities.
Boosting the bard's skill points to 8+ int modifier seems like a reasonable solution. Perhaps the Monk could use a boost to 6+ as well?
Either that, or the full-BAB Ranger needs to drop down to 4+Int, or both.
But that's another topic.
-Matt
mattastrophic I like the aura idea, but I would worry about stepping on the paladin's toes with all his aura abilities.
I don't think it would be a problem. The +4 morale bonus to fear saves, and eventually charms and compulsions, isn't the Paladin's primary purpose.
What would be accomplished is the concept that a good leader doesn't have to constantly be speaking in order to bolster his allies. I sometimes think of Admiral Adama from Battlestar Galactica; his leadership bolsters his allies when they're far away from him, even when they're across the galaxy.
-Matt
In that case I like it. When the bard is around or paying attention he can bring the bonuses up more by using standard actions or some such to actually be really inspiring.
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BlaineTog suggests making the bard's morale bonus an exception, letting it stack with all other morale bonuses. Fortunately, the rules already provide a cleaner way to do that: find a different keyword for the Inspire Courage bonus, so that it stacks with morale bonuses without invoking an exception.That got me wondering what are all the different bonus types. I was surprised to find that they are not listed...
You left off the "unnamed" modifier. Like the dodge modifier, unnamed modifiers stack with each other so long as they come from different sources. They also stack with any and all named modifiers. For instance, in 3.5 the hexblade's Curse ability is an unnamed penalty that stacks with everything but another hexblade's Curse.
Making the Bard's Inspire Courage an unnamed bonus is a simple fix that would be compatible with any other bonus but another bard's Inspire Courage ability.
Sure it's not a requirement,
You could for example have a wizard with an INT of 12, but you wouldn't do it, why play something if you aren't going to use its class features?
IF you want class features from the bard class the bard shrinks down to a 5 + Int Mod skill points, IF you want ALL your class features from bard you shrink again to 4 + Int Mod skill points. This is agumented a little bit by the Lore ability, but only if you wanted to have a Knowledge skill, otherwise it's another point you are told what to do with.
I'd say that at the very minimum Bard Class Abilities should be (Perform Check+1/2 lvl) to set save DCs.
Good God, no. That breaks really damn fast. It's OK at level 1 and 2, but by level 10 you've easily got DC 30 and 40 performances, and by level 20 your save-or-die performances would be "roll a 20 or die" performances. Even discounting magic items.
Level 10 bard -
10 ranks in Perform
3 class skill bonus
5 charisma modifier
6 skill focus
That's a +24 to the roll. A 10 thus gives you a Perform check of 34; add 5 to that and we get DC 39. That's without using a Charisma-boosting item or an item that provides bonuses to Charisma-based skills in general or Perform in specific.
At level 20, you've got -
20 ranks in Perform
3 class skill bonus
6 charisma modifier
6 skill focus
Which is a +35 to the roll. A roll of 10 thus gives us a DC of 55, which would instant-kill even a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon 95% of the time (only a natural 20 would save it).
And it should make up for giving up the ability to take a standard action, to continue to concentrate. Otherwise you end up with a bard that performs once every 5ish rounds then stops letting the bonus linger while preforming other tasks just to return to it becuase he has 20 uses of this ability and it's more efficent to use and lose a couple of times than to carry the bonus round after round.
This is the second thread I've seen you spout this little bit of myth-information. Only three of the bardic performances require concentration, and none of them are performances you're likely to ever use in combat (Inspire Competence, Song of Freedom, and Soothing Performance). There's no such thing as what you describe.
I think in 3e, only dodge bonuses stack with each other.
Circumstance bonuses also stack. Which gives us a neat outlet: Make Inspire Courage a Circumstance bonus. This also gets around the irritating "Mind Blanked characters get no benefit from Inspire Courage" issue.
Give me a quote for that bit on circumstance bonuses stacking becuase I can't find it anywhere.
I mentioned this in another bard thread but I think it bears repeating:
An old 3.5 houserule I found and use for the bard states that each Bardic Music ability has a Perform check DC the bard has to make in order for it to work.
Sounds awful at first right? The kicker is, the more the Bard's perform check beat the DC, the better the effect got.
Example:
Inspire Courage has a DC 20 to grant a +1. For every 10 the skill check went over 20, it went up by +1.
Now, the DCs were made with old 3.5 Skills in mind, so those would have to change but I think it's a good idea.
The Bard has several glaring issues that deserve to be fixed:
ACK! It ate my post! It's too late to retype it now... I'll repost my reply tomorrow sometime. :)
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I mentioned this in another bard thread but I think it bears repeating:
An old 3.5 houserule I found and use for the bard states that each Bardic Music ability has a Perform check DC the bard has to make in order for it to work.
Sounds awful at first right? The kicker is, the more the Bard's perform check beat the DC, the better the effect got.
Example:
Inspire Courage has a DC 20 to grant a +1. For every 10 the skill check went over 20, it went up by +1.
Now, the DCs were made with old 3.5 Skills in mind, so those would have to change but I think it's a good idea.
Actually, that still sounds awful. Especially considering the 3.5 bard Inspire Courage improved as you leveled. Tying the bard abilities into skill checks is a major nerf as there is a chance, however small, that the character will fail and waste a turn at low levels when they already have an absurdly low number of perform uses. Besides, most people prefer to REDUCE the number of dice rolls in a game, not add to it.
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(No one's going to blow skill points on "fun for the character to have" skills when many skills are more life-and-deathy.)
Hi Ernest (and all others out here),
As a player whose favorite class is the bard, I do use skill points an "useless" skills like dance.
A)to give the character more flair (After all, the "perform stringed instrument skill" should suffice, but I also pick "wind instruments" , "compose" and "oratory" just to round up the picture of my bard being a "performer-of-all-traits") cause his greatest dream is to own his own theater or famous traveling show, becoming renowned through all of Golarion. And I have even taken the skill " build stringed Instrument" (just in case the "performing" and adventuring does not work out that well in regards to become world famous). This way the character does not really have to worry about making a living, without resulting to sleep with everyone in town in order to stay fed and warm).
True, all of the above is really taxing in regards to skill points, but it allows to play a bard as an artist and performer.... after all, no bard really has chosen his profession to go wandering in dungeons and fighting monster.
One has to decide if to build a roleplaying character or a maximized know all, kill all, do all character. Both is fine, but the choise is yours. (Same can be done with any other class).
If any of the perdorm skills would be dropped, I would have to "houserule" them....and then, paying for them from my Skill allowance would hurt double.
I do concur in regards to dropping the rule of the maxed out skills. Let any one choose if he wants to be as perfect as could be....or being just a dabbler. BUT DONT DROP ANY SKILLS...contrary: GIVE MORE SPACE ON THE SHEET for perform, Craft and Profession Skills..... ;))
A) My main issue with the bard involves the existence of the Perform skill, doubly so since Pathfinder asks that bards take at least two Perform skills to gain their class abilities.My question is: why? The Perform skill doesn't actually do much of anything on its own, other than as a measure of a performer's talent. It does nothing that cannot be replicated by a Profession skill. It doesn't change disposition, it doesn't impress an audience, it doesn't gain glory for the subject of a Bard's tale. The skill Perform is meaningless!
Why not remove the skill entirely, or at least roll it into other skills, like Diplomacy (to impress an audience) or Intimidate (to scare a rival performer), (As a side note, why the Bard does not get Intimidate as a class skill, especially when the Virtuoso[CAdv], perhaps the most bard-geared prestige class, requires 4x Intimidate, is beyond me.) as all Perform really does is force the Bard to drain skill points just to use his class abilities.
I currently see two solutions:
-Remove the Perform skill entirely, as it doesn't really do anything.
or
-Expand upon the Perform skill, so it would actually do something. Add mechanics for impressing an individual, for example, rather than relying on "DC 30 = extraordinary," which really doesn't mean anything in game terms. As it stands, Perform doesn't change attitudes, it doesn't earn glory; all it does is let you peddle for cash, which is covered by Profession.
I think you misunderstand what the difference between Perform and Profession, first of all. Just because someone has talent and can play an instrument, act, whatever, doesn't mean they have the savvy, the know-how, or the organizational skills to market their talent(s). That is the cut-and-dry difference (also that Profession can almost act as a knowledge skill for determining what characters know in regards to the practical and applied business side of a craft or trade, whereas Perform (which is more like the craft skill(s) than it is Profession) is simply that, the ability to utilize talent the character has (whether it be innate or trained; which really is a moot point, anyway, b/c you can use the background story for the character to suggest or outright declare any innate musical talents and simply represent it by spending skill points in the skill).
You can also use perform in a myriad of "assisting" ways. Consider the following examples, which are all things I've seen as an observer or been party to as a player: A bard could be playing some entertaining act or instrument to distract someone (or a crowd of people) to aid their roguish comrade in sneaking into some area that would be otherwise too well guarded and/or that would have much more attentive guards than when the bard's making a scene and distracting them. A bard could use his oratory skills to talk up a great tale of heroics of heroes of long ago to inspire and incite a sense of pride and hope in a crowd, which would be a wonderful way to persuade certain officials in that town/area that a cause is worth supporting or taking up (that was a create bit of theatrics a fellow player came up with to get a stubborn magistrate to aid the heroes in their quest - which was really needed on a story level - which wasn't how the DM planned it per se, but very effective and a lot less violent and didn't require the town to come into danger before the man saw the heroes point.). Or one could be doing some dizzying array of acrobatics/gymnastics with some juggled items to confuse and mystify someone (or a group again) while making a subtle move towards an exit with his/her friends to avoid fighting their way to said exit... Those are all just "off the cuff" ideas that I've seen players come up with that all required skill checks in their respective and relevant Perform skills that (in most cases) worked wonderfully... (the 1 on the juggling check on that last example, well that worked wonderful until they were near the door and the bard lost concentration just a moment before they made a break for it... Can't always awe your way out, eh?).
B) Bard is the only class whose class abilities require a skill point expenditure. Does a rogue have to max out Stealth to use Sneak Attack? Does a druid have to max out Knowledge(Nature) to use Wild Shape? Does a Cleric have to max out Knowledge(Religion) to use Channel Energy? No. But a Bard has to max out Perform to use Bardic Music. And Pathfinder Beta goes a step further, requiring a Bard to max out a second Perform category.Thus, 3.5 made the Bard go from being a 6+Int...
That is also wrong. Rogues, for example, must put ranks into Search, Disable Device, and Open Locks to be able to use their class ability of being able to detect and disable traps, as well as opening locked doors and chests and such. There's other uses for skills such as Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana) being used by Wizards to discern what a written spell is and to copy it into their book... While it's true the Bard has this mechanic applied to the class more than most of the classes is true, it is because the Bard (like the Rogue) is a skills class. It is built to be a skilled craft that represents the training and many talents and abilities of what those of the class can do. Rangers are very close to these two, but not quite as skills intensive, but they do need to make Survival checks to navigate, track animals/people/etc, and Handle Animals to calm and influence animals they run into. And let's not forget how handy Knowledge (Nature) is at identifying what you're fighting and whether or not the Ranger knows the strengths and weaknesses of that creature... That is huge and can be of critical importance sometimes!
For perfrom I agree a class who is focused on perfromance should get a leg up.
I like one perfromance style plus one per point of intelligence bonus or point of charisma bonus whichever is higher.
So a bard with a 16 charisma would have 3 styles, one base, and one for each point of charisma bonus.
I also think ride should be a class skill for bards - they are the messengers and heralds - they have to be able to ride.
This is also a good point. In the same way knock or find traps had a tendency to downplay the rouge, spells like good hope and bless tend to step on the bard's toes. It's worse when you realize that bards can cast a lot of those spells, but by the time that he gets the spells, his bardic performance is a better option anyway. Might be too much to say morale bonuses stack. The simple solution is to say that bardic performance morale bonuses stack with all other morale bonuses (except other bardic performance bonuses, of course). In any event, of the five points you raise, this one's the most keen and important, I think, and one that's been overlooked for far too long. I'll certainly be pointing this out ad nauseum to Jason! :)
James,
It might be better to change the nature of bonuses granted by some of the spells. Sacred and profane bonuses are rarely used and could be combined into some kind of divine bonus. This might allow for better control of stacking bonuses.On a related note, I would like to see prayer changed from a luck bonus even if nothing else changes.