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I personally love the new rogue talent function – it allows the versatile rogue to live up to his abilities. That being said, I would believe that a few things should be changed.
First, if you are going to have a talent mechanic to give rogues minor class abilities, why isn’t trapfinding built into the talent mechanic? There are all kinds of rogues, and not all are trap-busting dungeon crawling archaeologists. I’d recommend moving this ability to a Talent, and have it scale with level, so it only needs to be taken once.
NEW TALENTS
Next looking at Talents, most are combat related, or movement related. What about an ability that serves “Face” rogues, or gives rogues non-combattant powers? How about:
Fast Talker (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to make a Diplomacy check as a standard action at a -20 to their check.
Jack of All Trades (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to make any skill check, even if it is limited to trained only.
Lucky (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to re-roll any one d20 check once per day. They may to reroll one roll that you have just made before the game master declares whether the roll results in success or failure. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll.
Observant (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to automatically check for traps or secret doors if they pass within 10 feet of them. This skill check is automatically assumed to take 10.
REVIEW OF EXISTING TALENTS
Bleeding Attack seems too powerful, and our playtesters have seen it as a ‘no-brainer’ which tells me it is head and shoulders above the other talents available. I’m not sure what to adjust though. Perhaps allow a Fortitude save to avoid the effect?
As well, I believe that Combat Trick needs to repeat the limitation that ithis talent can only be taken once. A lot of playtesters have misread this rule.
Weapon Training should probably clarify it can only be taken once as well.
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Nice thought on your talents.
I think being able to Sneak Attack certain creatures that typically couldn't should be talents that a rogue can take.
"Corpse-killer" You have studied and become a hunter of the walking dead, and have become knowledgeable in swiftly destroying them. A rogue with this talent can apply sneak attack damage to all Undead as a rogue half his rogue level.
"Tinkerer" You have a knack for clockworks and other contraptions. Your love has taught you uncanny ways to disabling them quickly. A rogue with this talent can apply sneak attack damage to all Constructs as a rogue half his rogue level
"Defiler" You have learned a talent in destroying plant-life in this world; specifically living plants that are more apt to eat you than be harvested. A rogue with this talent can apply sneak attack damage to all Plants as a rogue half his rogue level.
Robert
I'd go with those talent abilities, Robert, only I wouldn't have their levels. They're already giving up one of their talents to gain a situational bonus anyway, so they don't need to be hampered as well.
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I'd go with those talent abilities, Robert, only I wouldn't have their levels. They're already giving up one of their talents to gain a situational bonus anyway, so they don't need to be hampered as well.
I think sneak attack could be reworded to let someone with 2 ranks in an appropriate knowledge skill sneak attack their undead/construct/ooze/etc opponent. Done.
I like that idea too Archade, but I would say at least three ranks so that they're 3rd-level or higher.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I personally love the new rogue talent function – it allows the versatile rogue to live up to his abilities. That being said, I would believe that a few things should be changed.
First, if you are going to have a talent mechanic to give rogues minor class abilities, why isn’t trapfinding built into the talent mechanic? There are all kinds of rogues, and not all are trap-busting dungeon crawling archaeologists. I’d recommend moving this ability to a Talent, and have it scale with level, so it only needs to be taken once.
NEW TALENTS
Next looking at Talents, most are combat related, or movement related. What about an ability that serves “Face” rogues, or gives rogues non-combattant powers? How about:
Fast Talker (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to make a Diplomacy check as a standard action at a -20 to their check.
Jack of All Trades (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to make any skill check, even if it is limited to trained only.
Lucky (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to re-roll any one d20 check once per day. They may to reroll one roll that you have just made before the game master declares whether the roll results in success or failure. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll.
Observant (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to automatically check for traps or secret doors if they pass within 10 feet of them. This skill check is automatically assumed to take 10.
I like all of these. However, I think fast talker should be at -10 only as a full round action.
As for the other suggestions about talents for new sneak attack opponents, I don't think this is needed with the new sneak attack rules, since you can already sneak attack anything now that's not incorporeal or an ooze.
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As for the other suggestions about talents for new sneak attack opponents, I don't think this is needed with the new sneak attack rules, since you can already sneak attack anything now that's not incorporeal or an ooze.
My idea was in lieu of that mentality/mechanic.
Because frankly, I disagree with it. Without that, rogues were already one of the most powerful elite of the classes - with this change to the core mechanics, I feel it escalates sneak attack - and thus the rogue - as too lucrative.
Out of curiosity - can undead creatures etc now be affected by critical hits? or just sneak attack. I didnt know where in the Beta rules to look for this.....
Robert
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Out of curiosity - can undead creatures etc now be affected by critical hits? or just sneak attack. I didnt know where in the Beta rules to look for this.....
Robert
I've asked about this, but haven't seen an official answer. The concenssus was that crits should affect whatever sneak attacks do, and that's how my group is using the rules in playtest.
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I've asked about this, but haven't seen an official answer. The concenssus was that crits should affect whatever sneak attacks do, and that's how my group is using the rules in playtest.Out of curiosity - can undead creatures etc now be affected by critical hits? or just sneak attack. I didnt know where in the Beta rules to look for this.....
Robert
We've been doing just the opposite.
As I said before, I think this is wrong for both sneak attacks and crits to start affecting these creatures - it's been built in to their immunities at the time of the creature's design.
I dont have a problem with a particularly dedicated rogue to learn how to affect some of these creatures to some degree (as I suggested for new talents).
Robert
We're also doing the opposite. I'm playing a cleric/rogue in our Crimson Throne game and so far things have gone well. I agree that there needs to some more non-combat Rogue Talents.
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Here's my updated list ...
Fast Talker (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to make a Diplomacy check as a standard action at a -20 to their check.
Jack of All Trades (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to make any skill check, even if it is limited to trained only.
Lucky (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to re-roll any one d20 check once per day. They may to reroll one roll that you have just made before the game master declares whether the roll results in success or failure. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll.
Observant (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to automatically check for traps or secret doors if they pass within 10 feet of them. This skill check is automatically assumed to take 10.
Trap Sense (Ex): This ability grants a rogue a bonus to his Reflex saves and Perception checks equal to +1 per 3 levels of rogue.
Hidden Countenance (Ex): This ability grants a rogue the ability to conceal certain actions if they succeed at a Sleight of Hand check at –10, opposed by Perception. This includes spellcasting, attacks, aiding another, drawing a hidden weapon, using a magic item, readying an action, or the like. If the opponent does not succeed a Perception check, sneak attack damage may apply.
Slippery (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to make an Escape Artist check as a swift action.
Misleading Stance (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to use Bluff to feint in combat against all opponents within 30 feet.
Dangerous Tongue (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to double the duration of Intimidate checks to make opponents shaken.
Leaping Charge (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to make a charge attack without requiring a straight line of movement, or even if they move through difficult ground.
Likeable Scoundrel (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to use his Bluff skill for Diplomacy checks, or his Diplomacy skill for Bluff checks.
Sneaky Maneuver (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to use the extra dice they receive from sneak attack to perform a Combat Maneuver, if their opponent is flanked or flat-footed.
Tinkerer (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to use their Use Magical Device skill to imitate a Create Item feat, at a DC check of 30 + the caster level required to make a magic item. The rogue must still meet the other requirements of making a magic item.
Trap Sense - Would this double the effect of the existing class ability or are you proposing to scrap it?
Observant - This is what I'd like the trapfinding ability to be like, rather than just prohibiting everyone else from finding magical traps. Maybe it could instead give the rogue a 1/2-level bonus to his Disable Device checks to disarm magical traps.
Misleading Countenance - Would this allow the rogue to feint and attack in the same round or make a feint as a move action?
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Trap Sense - Would this double the effect of the existing class ability or are you proposing to scrap it?
Observant - This is what I'd like the trapfinding ability to be like, rather than just prohibiting everyone else from finding magical traps. Maybe it could instead give the rogue a 1/2-level bonus to his Disable Device checks to disarm magical traps.
Misleading Countenance - Would this allow the rogue to feint and attack in the same round or make a feint as a move action?
This is moving Trap Sense to a talent, and taking it out of the fixed class abilities. It's effectively the same effect (although it could be +1 per 2 levels -- its not exactly a powerful ability).
I'm assuming you mean Hidden Countenance -- they basically could make a Sleight of Hand check at -10 instead of a Bluff check, and perform an attack that round. I suppose the working could be clarified. I was just throwing out wild ideas...
Mea culpa. I actually meant Misleading Stance, as I've found that any sort of "combat rogue" really needs Improved Feint to effectively employ his sneak attack, even if he is not flanking.
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Mea culpa. I actually meant Misleading Stance, as I've found that any sort of "combat rogue" really needs Improved Feint to effectively employ his sneak attack, even if he is not flanking.
Oh! I meant Misleading Stance to be "hey look, all of your shoelaces are untied!", so you can feint against all your enemies, and then move through them without provoking AoOs. You could use it for Improved Feint, Feinting for ranged attacks, whatever you like.
Oh! I meant Misleading Stance to be "hey look, all of your shoelaces are untied!", so you can feint against all your enemies, and then move through them without provoking AoOs. You could use it for Improved Feint, Feinting for ranged attacks, whatever you like.
I like the idea of a rogue with a bow, looking around the battle field, firing an arrow at the lights hanging above then, while everyone is looking at the lights, he takes a shot at the head goon. I can't remember what Improved Feint does, so I can't weigh in there.
These are all great though! Keep 'em comin'.
Here's my updated list ...
Fast Talker (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to make a Diplomacy check as a standard action at a -20 to their check.
Jack of All Trades (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to make any skill check, even if it is limited to trained only.
Lucky (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to re-roll any one d20 check once per day. They may to reroll one roll that you have just made before the game master declares whether the roll results in success or failure. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll.
Observant (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to automatically check for traps or secret doors if they pass within 10 feet of them. This skill check is automatically assumed to take 10.
Trap Sense (Ex): This ability grants a rogue a bonus to his Reflex saves and Perception checks equal to +1 per 3 levels of rogue.
Hidden Countenance (Ex): This ability grants a rogue the ability to conceal certain actions if they succeed at a Sleight of Hand check at –10, opposed by Perception. This includes spellcasting, attacks, aiding another, drawing a hidden weapon, using a magic item, readying an action, or the like. If the opponent does not succeed a Perception check, sneak attack damage may apply.
Slippery (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to make an Escape Artist check as a swift action.
Misleading Stance (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to use Bluff to feint in combat against all opponents within 30 feet.
Dangerous Tongue (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to double the duration of Intimidate checks to make opponents shaken.
Leaping Charge (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to make a charge attack without requiring a straight line of movement, or even if they move through difficult ground.
Likeable Scoundrel (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to use his Bluff skill for Diplomacy checks, or his Diplomacy skill for Bluff checks.
Sneaky Maneuver (Ex): This...
Why not adding the following:
Advanced Talent:
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While near to any sort of concealment, a Rogue can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. A Rogue must be at least of 14th level in order to choose this Advanced Talent.
My reason: Rangers (who are a sort of Fighter/Rogues) can hide in plain sight, and full Rogues cannot?
I would point out that until 3.x rogues where not really 'martial' characters, they where expert characters. The thought that they can only be 'martial' bugs me, lets leave the arcana claptrap in as there are lots of examples of rouges with minor magical talents, but absolutely no 'levels' in a 'mage class'. Gray Mouser for example.
If it doesn't fit your view fine, don't take it, but I hate to see stuff taken out just so the thing in question fits a narrow view of how something is 'supposed to look'. Lets leave that to 4ed thanks all the same.
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Looking through Complete Scoundrel there are a couple of feat-themes that I could see becoming Talents. All the stuff about Luck, for example. I don't want to see a bunch of Luck talents, but something that let the rogue re-roll once per day might be fun, maybe as a minor talent, then something more specific or drastic for an advanced talent.
I also really like what the book refers to as the "ambush" feats - feats where a rogue can trade sneak attack die for interesting effects. Bleeding Attack and Slow Reactions already work like this. Actually, I prefer Pathfinder's way of just adding to CS's trading away damage, but it seems to me that sneak attack is one of the rogue's signature abilities and finding interesting ways to fiddle with it would be fun. Different talents could allow sneak attacks to cause things like 1 pt of temporary ability loss, blindness, deafness, reduced movement, etc.
Personally, I like Dispelling Attack and wouldn't mind seeing something where an arcane-inclined rogue could literally steal a spell from an opponent, a la spell-thieves.
Skill tricks also seem like something we could look at for ideas:
* Assume quirk - familiar viewers don't get bonus to see through your disguises
* Clever improviser - no penalty for Disable Devices w/o tools
* Conceal spellcasting
* Hidden blade - draw HIDDEN weapon as a move
* Mosquito's bite - opponent doesn't notice damage you've dealt with light weapon
* Sudden draw - draw weapon as part of an AoO
* Clarity of vision - spot invisible
* Extreme leap/leaping climber - extra Jump distance or add Jump distance to Climb distance
Other ideas:
* Trap setting
* Photographic memory
* Perfect recall of things heard
* Throw your voice/ventriliquism
Was there anything fun the old thief-acrobats could do that isn't in 3.5 that we' like to bring back?
Also, I like the ideas for non-combat and social talents.
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More ideas for rogue talents...
* Being able to use poison without risk (or other mildly assassin-like skills).
* KO - On a crit with a subdual weapon, victim has to make a Fort save or be knocked out. This fits with all those kidnapping, bonking-over-the-head rogues in stories.
* Something that makes the rogue able to be a REALLY good pickpocket.
* Does rapidly assessing a pile of loot and spotting the most valuable item in the room already exist somewhere? Being able to do it as a free action might be useful to some.
I would like to see more merciful rogue type feats. The talent to put someone to sleep on a SA might work... hmm...
Considering a Wizard can put up to 4HD to sleep at 1st level why not let the rogue do the same at 2nd with a talent?
Sleep Easy: If the rogue does a sneak attack with a non-lethal weapon the rogue may attempt to knock his target out with the blow. Target makes a fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 rogues level plus INT Bonus) or collapses unconscious for 1d4+1 rounds.
Also... I posted another thread but I think any sneak attack triggered effects should be limited to one effect per round.
More ideas for rogue talents...
* Being able to use poison without risk (or other mildly assassin-like skills).
My same idea here. I thought of a "beta-talent" before seeing your suggestion (strange that nobody else thought about it...)
Poison Use (Ex): A Rogue with this talent is trained in the use of poison and never risks accidentally poisoning himselves when applying poison to a blade.
It's only a 5% better than everybody else, so it's strange that only assassins and blackguards can do this... most poisons don't even kill (well, directly; but seriously, Strength or Dexterity damage is the best way to subdue enemies without killing them, if you ask me)(but don't tell to the Paladin !!!)
Observant (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to automatically check for traps or secret doors if they pass within 10 feet of them. This skill check is automatically assumed to take 10.
My suggestion: it could be an Advanced talent, in order to avoid level-dipping just for the taking (at 2nd level).
Poison Use (Ex): A Rogue with this talent is trained in the use of poison and never risks accidentally poisoning himselves when applying poison to a blade.
There is an alternate class ability almost identical to this in the Gazeteer:
Class Abilities: Some Rogues are renowned for their use of poison. This ability replaces the trap sense ability.
Poison Master (Ex): At 3rd level, the rogue can use poison without any chance of poisoning himself. For every three levels of rogue beyond 3rd, the DC for any poison coated on the rogue's weapons increases by +1 if the target is poisoned as part of a sneak attack.
Maybe two talents, one to enable poison use and one to increase the DC of the poison.
I like Hidden Countenance. It's like improved feint, performing it faster at the expense of a -10 penalty. Leaping Charge might have some thematic issues from the typical rogue build for people, commonly seen as something a barbarian does. Likeable Scoundrel is a bit too good, giving you a full skill point per level for something that's supposed to be on par with a feat. I do really like the Sneaky Maneuver talent though.
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I agree with most of your observations.
The Knowledge ranks to sneak attack stuff is interesting for a couple of reasons: (1) What you suggested in exactly the house rule we came up with (in 3.5) during Age of Worms. (2) Maybe there's an exisiting mechanic we can co-opt. If the rogue makes a Knowledge check (DC equal to 10 + CR), he can sneak attack that monster. (Assuming it's not explicitly immune.)
As for Combat Trick, it definitely needs to be clarified. My reading doesn't match yours, though I can see how you arrived at your interpretation. (I prefer your interpretation, actually, from a balance standpoint.)
Combat Trick says that the feat chosen is "in place of" a rogue talent, with the implication that Combat Trick itself isn't a rogue talent, subject to the "take only once" restriction.
Bleeding Attack is definitely too good, as you say. A Fort save to avoid is okay, though I hate adding another roll to combat. Maybe Bleeding Attack could apply only if the weapon damage is max? (I.e., 4 with a dagger, 6 with a short sword, and so on.) This would encourage the use of "roguish" weapons for sneak attack, and highlight the difference between big weapons and sneaky weapons: big weapons hit hard ... sneaky weapons nick veins.
-- Jeff
As for Combat Trick, it definitely needs to be clarified. My reading doesn't match yours, though I can see how you arrived at your interpretation. (I prefer your interpretation, actually, from a balance standpoint.)
Combat Trick says that the feat chosen is "in place of" a rogue talent, with the implication that Combat Trick itself isn't a rogue talent, subject to the "take only once" restriction.
Jason himself has specified in the thread "Errata and Typos (Bard, Monk and Rogue)" that Combat Trick can be taken only once, and that the wording will be clarified.
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Bleeding Attack is definitely too good, as you say. A Fort save to avoid is okay, though I hate adding another roll to combat. Maybe Bleeding Attack could apply only if the weapon damage is max? (I.e., 4 with a dagger, 6 with a short sword, and so on.) This would encourage the use of "roguish" weapons for sneak attack, and highlight the difference between big weapons and sneaky weapons: big weapons hit hard ... sneaky weapons nick veins.
I too feel bleeding attack is too good. My players in the playtest jumped all over that talent to the exclusion of all the others. The problem with a 'damage ceiling' is it introduces bookkeeping, which should be avoided. Maybe change it to a flat 1 or 2 points of bleed damage per round?
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The problem with a 'damage ceiling' is it introduces bookkeeping, which should be avoided. Maybe change it to a flat 1 or 2 points of bleed damage per round?
I'm not sure what you mean by "damage ceiling." Could you explain? (My suggestion, that Bleeding Attack only happen if max damage is rolled on the weapon-damage die, doesn't have any book-keeping that I can see, so I'm confused.)
The problem with a flat low-value Bleed is that you end up with the problem opposite the current one ... a weak talent that doesn't scale with level.
-- Jeff
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The problem with a 'damage ceiling' is it introduces bookkeeping, which should be avoided. Maybe change it to a flat 1 or 2 points of bleed damage per round?I'm not sure what you mean by "damage ceiling." Could you explain? (My suggestion, that Bleeding Attack only happen if max damage is rolled on the weapon-damage die, doesn't have any book-keeping that I can see, so I'm confused.)
The problem with a flat low-value Bleed is that you end up with the problem opposite the current one ... a weak talent that doesn't scale with level.
Aha! I misunderstood you.
I think your idea has merit. You could say that bleed does an extra bit of damage for each max die rolled, so a sneak attack with multiple dice has a greater chance of bleed ...
Are you guys saying that 1 point of Bleed for each 1d6 of Sneak Attack is too confusing?
Requiring the bleed to only trip when the weapon hits max damage has the odd effect of making daggers "bleed" more often than shortswords, and for smaller rogues to trip it more often than medium ones.
That's just.. odd.
Unless your party is the type to "hit and run" and run and run and wait for the bleed to kill them- Bleed really isn't an issue. It adds a couple of points a damage for the 2-3 rounds the poor creature has left on this earth, then the effect is over. ('cuz the critter is toast).
And lets not forget DR when counting the bleed. (i think it affects it, doesn't it? hrm)
The Hit and Run tactics should take care of themselves when the DM, appropriately, begins drastically decreasing the xp gain for repeated wins with no loss required by the group.
-S
Requiring the bleed to only trip when the weapon hits max damage has the odd effect of making daggers "bleed" more often than shortswords, and for smaller rogues to trip it more often than medium ones.
That's just.. odd.
And a mechanism that doesn't exist anywhere else in the game.
Unless your party is the type to "hit and run" and run and run and wait for the bleed to kill them- Bleed really isn't an issue. It adds a couple of points a damage for the 2-3 rounds the poor creature has left on this earth, then the effect is over. ('cuz the critter is toast).
Yes, that pretty much sums it up. Our typical encounters last 4-10 rounds and the span of time between first blood and death on a given creature is usually far less than that. Your 2-3 round estimate is right in the ballpark. Beefier enemies might last 4 rounds.
And lets not forget DR when counting the bleed. (i think it affects it, doesn't it? hrm)
I would say DR would not affect bleed but creatures with fast healing would be more or less immune to it as should any creatures that can't actually... well bleed... golems, many undead.... but that's a tough call.
OK, new guy on deck. I was working to exploit the Spring Attack angle, but short of cross classing into Barbarian or Scout(THAT would be a mess), it was impossible for me to get into and out of combat with my skin. I worked with my DM and another guy in my group, and we expanded on the Dash feat in the Complete Warrior and added the results into the Rogue Talents:
Dash - If you are wearing light or no armor and carrying a light load, your speed is 5 feet faster.
Improved Dash - Req. Dash - If you are wearing light or no armor and carrying a light load, your speed is 5 feet faster.
And as an advanced talent:
Greater improved Dash - Req. Improved Dash - If you are wearing light or no armor and carrying a light load, your speed is 10 feet faster.
So you spend 3 talents, get another 20ft. of movement, and don't have to lose some back stab bonus in cross class stuff.
So far, it doesn't seem unbalanced and I'm not dead> Go Me.
I like the Dash talent idea too, but I don't think you need one talent per five feet. Why not have a basic talent for ten feet (with the listed restrictions) and keep the advanced talent for the other 10 feet?
I like the Dash talent idea too, but I don't think you need one talent per five feet. Why not have a basic talent for ten feet (with the listed restrictions) and keep the advanced talent for the other 10 feet?
Dash is a pre-existing feat, so it was easier to expand on that idea as a Talent than to over power it. 5 feet twice and 10 feet once seemed fair, didn't make me too fast too early, and we felt it let me do what I want to do without putting me at an advantage.
Honestly, the only reason was so we didn't over-do it in my favor. Granted we are playing kinda fast and loose with 3.5/Pathfinder feats, but we are still using Pathfinder core classes. We'll probably review our characters again at 10th level and see what has changed rules wise. So far, it's working out OK.
By the way, 100ft. charge, SWEET!
The rogue only gets one combat trick and one bonus feat, as each rogue talent may only be selected once.
The rogue only gets one combat trick and one bonus feat, as each rogue talent may only be selected once.
Yes and no...
There is Finesse rogue (talent), which gives weapon finesse, and weapon training (talent) which gives weapon focus. So technically you can get up to 4 feats out of your talent choices.
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About the poison use talents (Which I wholeheartily aprove of) If you'll notice in the back of the beta (391) The poisons now have levels. I propose the following Poison Talents:
Poison Use (Ex): A rogue may apply any poison of equal level of the rogue or less without any risk of accitdentally poisoning themselves when applying poison. A rogue who uses a poison of a higher level is at risk of rolling a 1 and posioning themselves, as well as receiving a 1% cumulative chance per Poison level above the rogues level (maximum of 5%) to poison themselves while applying the poison.
Improved Poison Use (Ex): A rogue may apply poison faster, and use more deadly poisons. You add 3 to your rogue levels when comparing the poison level to your Rogue level. Also you may apply poison one step faster (I don't recall off the top of my head, but I think that to poison a weapon is a full round action, this would make it a standard, or if it is a standard this would make it a move etc...) Speeding up applying poison in this manner doubles the risk (if any) of poisoning yourself while applying the poison. You must have Poison use to take Improved poison use.