Alright, so I apologize if this has been posted before, but I wanted to raise a point. Namely, I hate spell resistance. A typical fireball, meteor swarm, etc. already has the damage and saving throw mechanics attached to it, which means that it already takes two rolls, not to mention a lot of annoying addition and subtraction from energy resistance, which makes another mechanic simply an annoyance slowing the game down.
So, for the sake of simplicity, I'm wondering if we could somehow alter SR so that it rolls into other mechanics without adding additional dice-rolling to already-slow combat. In some cases, it also creates a balance issue when spells, such as fireball, gain 3 resistance mechanics (save, SR and energy resist).
Now, I'm aware that a pretty classic part of D&D involves some creatures and races having an innate resistance to magic that others don't possess, so I'm not saying the concept should be axed. I'm also not entirely sure how we could roll it into other rolls, but here are some things I was thinking of:
-A simple bonus to saves vs. spell attached to a combination of mettle and evasion. A drow, for example, might get a bonus of 1 + 1/4 class levels to saves, and the effects of evasion and mettle vs spells, so that they have good saves, and are unaffected by spells once they do save. I'm not 100% that this works out mechanically, but I'm all for less counting and rolling.
-How about altering the core spells so that those subject to energy resistance aren't subject to spell resistance (this would also have a rider effect of making evokers suck less).
What do you people think? Have you found this mechanic redundant and annoying? Would changes like this alter balance and backwards compatibility too much? If these changes don't work, which ones would? Should I stop posting this late at night?
Spell resistance is a necesarry part of DnD. While perhaps a fireball has 3 lines of defense, spell resistance is often the only real line of defense against many of the deadliest spells. Irrisitable Dance, Enervtion, Energy Drain, and Ray of Enfeeblement all fall into this category. These are all touch/ranged touch attacks, which are terribly easy to make, and no save allowed. SR is the only real line of defense here.
For Fireballs and stuff such as you mentioned, smarter play can help you. Many monsters with elemental strengths also have elemental weaknesses. An appropriate knowledge check might help. And the monsters with resistance to all/most elemental types are rare, so a good repoitoire of magic elements at your disposal will keep you ready to fight anyone. The Elemental Substitution feat gets past the third line of defense nicely as well.
*But* easy answer... don't cast spells like fireball. If you like casting area of effect elemental damage spells well.. you're going to have to deal with some of the drawbacks.
Thank you for your response, but I'm actually not asking asking for tactical advice on how to play a character. I'm making a rules suggestion. While elemental-based spells are in need of rebalancing, the greater part of my concern is actually that the current SR system is mechanically redundant and slows the game down. I'm also not trying to get rid of it, I would just like to see a simpler way of running it so we don't have spells that take 4 rolls to complete. Is it possible that something like my previous suggestion (which was only one possible suggestion) could simply allow for spells that otherwise have no save to allow for a save?
Make Fireball and all those other blasting spells ignore SR. It's not going to hurt anything. SR still blocks real magic, while saves and resistances tend to negate blasting anyways.
This is especially true since the toughest enemies in the game are resistant or immune to at least most elements and these are also the ones most likely to be having SR. Namely aligned outsiders.
Angels get 10/immune/10/immune for their fire/cold/electricity/acid.
Devils get immune/10/0/10.
Demons get 10/10/immune/10.
Then the ones with immunity to x and vulnerability to y where y is its opposite also tend to have spellcasting access if not abilities, and can therefore block that obvious weakness at the least, perhaps going so far as to give some resistance across the board or something.
End result is blasting is a little more valid, other magic doesn't suddenly have a field day.
Post paraphrased due to annoying site glitches.
Yes, SR needs to die in a fire.
Creative Director
|
Spell resistance has been a part of the game since 1st edition. That makes it something that we'd need to think long and hard about excising from the Pathfinder RPG. I'd rather not see it go, in any case, since it IS a valuable method of balancing the game. Just as there are creatures that are resistant or immune to weapons, it's important for there to be something that makes certain monsters resistant to magic. The game is enhanced, in my opinion, if there are monsters out there that force players to switch their baseline tactics around now and then. If a player of an evoker just walks through every battle casting fireball fireball fireball, that gets to be boring and repetitive (if not for that player, likely for the other players and certainly for the GM). Creatures with spell resistance (and to an extent those with energy resistance/immunity) add a necessary element of variation to the game so that you AREN'T fighting the same things every time, and so that you DO have to switch around your tactics. If that means that the fireball throwing wizard has to take on a support role and buff other PCs whit magic or use things like transmute rock to mud, wall spells, or summoned monsters to impact some encounters... I'm okay with that.
I want to know what sort of incredibly weak enemies an Evoker is 'walking all over'.
|
In most encounters dealing with an SR creature the player should quickly get in the habit of automatically rolling the CL check if they're casting a spell against that target. It should only take once for the player to be told the critter has some unnatural ability to resist magic. As long as your player is on the ball I've found no real 'slowdown' effect due to SR by itself.
But like anything else in 3.5 its cumulative. If the critter is incorporeal,has SR, fire resistance and a host of buffs some drag is inevitable.
Ermmm...fireball was just an example. I wish I hadn't picked two evocation spells, as I was talking about all spells (though, evocation has a serious case of 'teh suck', and no one has ever been able to mathematically display otherwise, but that's a discussion for a different time).
I guess I really wasn't clear in my suggestion. I suppose I should have said something more along the lines of "get rid of an extra roll for spell resistance". I'm not really suggesting that spell resistance is mechanically unsound, because, it does actually balance well. I'm suggesting that it's an annoying nuisance to figure out yet ANOTHER roll for a spell. The system works, it's just wonky, sort of like the combat maneuver system was. One thing I've really liked about the pathfinder roleplaying game is that the guys at Paizo seem to be working towards speeding the game up, which means (in the case of CMB) smooshing some rolls together so we can get through 6 seconds of game time in less than 10 minutes of real world time (yes I'm exaggerating). I'd like to see something similar for SR (
really, couldn't some spells be nerfed to allow saves? and some races given a bonus to saves? something like that would be so much better than adding 5 additional rolls every round)
I tried to think about some ways to acomplish what you wanted, but then, no idea came to my mind that kept the spell resistance (it may make one more roll, but then, it's easier to the dm to see a number written than to add some bonus to a save...)...
I think that UA mention something in a sidebar about the point some people made here. It was something like "SR does not apply against energy spells". While I think that this is a little too generic, some more evocation and "blaster type" spells should have SR removed from them. As the book points, it helps making the popular blaster concept more player-friendly, while keeping away the annoying save or die effects.
I don't think there is a easy way to waht you want, OP, and none that could fit well into the PFrpg book.
Most of the spells you care about only have two lines of defense. Save, SR. Some only have one, the SR. So it's not making anything more complex than it would for blasting if SR did not apply to SR (save, energy resist).
Nothing is actually harder.
Nerfing the no save spells is just going to make them utterly and completely useless as the reason why they have no save is because they are weaker than save allowing spells which produce more reliable results. Case in point: Ray of Dizziness vs Slow. Both spells render the target unable to take both a standard and a move action in any given round for 1 round a level. The former simply requires a touch attack followed by a SR check and affects one creature. The latter does not require a touch attack, but does require a Will save and affects up to one creature a level as long as no two are more than 30' apart. It also reduces their actual speed by half which effectively means they can only take a quarter the actions instant of half.
So you have one spell that can affect many things but almost never works against the things you care about (anything remotely tough has high saves across the board), and one spell that has a lesser effect on one thing that almost always works. Both have their niche.
Nerf the reliable option, it now becomes pointless as it's either another Slow, or just inferior to Slow. Seeing as both spells are level 3, they should have comparable effects.
I know someone's going to try to say Ray of Dizziness isn't core, but it's hardly the only example of a consistent, reliable result vs a far less reliable but greater result.
Spell resistance has been a part of the game since 1st edition. That makes it something that we'd need to think long and hard about excising from the Pathfinder RPG. I'd rather not see it go, in any case, since it IS a valuable method of balancing the game. Just as there are creatures that are resistant or immune to weapons, it's important for there to be something that makes certain monsters resistant to magic. The game is enhanced, in my opinion, if there are monsters out there that force players to switch their baseline tactics around now and then. If a player of an evoker just walks through every battle casting fireball fireball fireball, that gets to be boring and repetitive (if not for that player, likely for the other players and certainly for the GM). Creatures with spell resistance (and to an extent those with energy resistance/immunity) add a necessary element of variation to the game so that you AREN'T fighting the same things every time, and so that you DO have to switch around your tactics. If that means that the fireball throwing wizard has to take on a support role and buff other PCs whit magic or use things like transmute rock to mud, wall spells, or summoned monsters to impact some encounters... I'm okay with that.
I am very happy that Paizo is not falling into the 4E mode of thinking that every power of every character must be useful in every situation.
Velderan, although I agree that it would be nice to get rid of the extra roll, I don't really think it is feasible to transfer spellresistance to other existing rolls without making the whole thing a lot more complicated than it is already. I was thinking about this a while ago and wanted to simply provide a large "spell resistance" bonus to saving throws, but this effort floundered on the fact that not all spells that allow spell resistance allow saving throws. Making up a system that would make them saving-throws dependent in some circumstances is simply needlessly complex and it is ultimately simpler and less confusing to simply keep the spell-resistance roll. Of course, this would be a different situation if the game was being designed from the ground up, but that is not the case this time.
No need to give golems energy resistance. If the Wizard is casting a crappy little blasting spell, instead of using one of the means that negate the golem in spite of its so called immunity, let him do his minor to moderate damage.
Making SR a save bonus just means nothing with SR will fail a save, ever. Barring natural 1s obviously.
No need to give golems energy resistance. If the Wizard is casting a crappy little blasting spell, instead of using one of the means that negate the golem in spite of its so called immunity, let him do his minor to moderate damage.
Making SR a save bonus just means nothing with SR will fail a save, ever. Barring natural 1s obviously.
Stone golem is CR 11, has 107 hp and a +3 reflex save. 11th-level fireball deals on average 30 points of damage, 11th-level scorching ray deals on average 36. This is of course barring any sort of metamagic. With no immunity to that fireball, the wizard (who is almost certain to be using metamagics, in this case probably Maximize) is almost guaranteed to 2-round it without any help from the party. Hardly minor to moderate.
Counting in contributions from other party members (a flame strike from the cleric, a full attack from the barbarian that'll probably dish out at least 12-20 points of damage, etc.) and the golem is pretty much guaranteed dead on the first round.
EDIT: and on an unrelated note, I've always been for giving golems hardness anyway.
Your math has so many errors in it it is not even funny.
Fireball does 35 average against a failed save, 17.5 vs successful save. With a save modifier like that it has about a 20% success rate.
35 damage cannot two hit KO. It can't even three hit KO. As such, it is minor to moderate seeing as that's his entire freakin' round.
Scorching Ray averages 42, no save. It's taking 3 castings to do it.
Maximized Fireball is a 6th level spell. He wants to blow two 6th level spells on one routine enemy, let him. It will bite him in the ass before the day is done. If you really want to blow a 6th level spell in the fight, use Disintegrate on the 10' cube under its feet. Encounter negated for half the cost.
If the Barbarian is only doing 12-20 damage on a freakin' full attack, he needs to full attack himself ASAP as he fails horribly at life. Come to think of it, all these casters using blasting magic should follow suit. Synchronized suicide? We are talking level 11 barbarians right? Not level 1?
Or you can just Fog the damn thing, which is still superior to any other method of negation in terms of efficiency and effectiveness, and is still superior to blasting it even if you now could.
Therefore, being able to Fireball it just means those silly mages that still think direct damage is worth a damn suck slightly less. Especially if the Swift action thing goes through. Then those spells have a point in existence.
5th level spell to still not kill it compared to low level spells that auto negate it. Blasting isn't too good against it. Really. That's what being inferior to preexisting options means after all.
There is no reason why a Barb 11 would not have Haste (10 rounds, or the entire standard day divided as he sees fit) and an adamantine weapon (it's freakin' cheap, why not?)
Also, a level 1 barbarian is doing 8-19 a hit, without including any racial strength bonuses. All it takes is 16 strength and rage. That's it. Make him an orc, he's up to 11-22. Level 11 barb is going to manage more than that a hit, and still get three hits.
So... waste spells smashing face, let the at will guy smash face, or auto negate the golem with a low level spell. See, nothing wrong with being able to blast the golem. It's not making things any easier for you at all.
Oh and learn what asshat means.
Take Heighten Spell and use a higher level slot for your Fireballs.
Take Heighten Spell and use a higher level slot for your Fireballs.
Which makes the DC higher, does nothing else, and means wasting a higher level spell slot. Again, what purpose does this serve?
Want to worry less about spell resistance...
Step 1 - Buy complete Arcane
Step 2 - Take Feat: Arcane Mastery (look it up ;) )
Step 3 - Buff w/ 4th level Spell "Assay Resistance" (look it up ;) )
I guarantee those 2, combined with spell penetration, greater spell penetration, being an elf, and becoming a 20th level universal wizard you will NEVER have to worry about spell resistance again.
Arcane Mastery is high Int or elf. You don't have to be an elf. That's also likely overkill since even without the spell penetration feats you ignore all SR of 40 or lower.
|
Yeah I'm all for that. Blasting spells should ignore SR. In fact, they started this trend in the spell compendium with the orb spells and so on, though oddly they were conjuration and not evocation, which was stupid.
Aren't conjuration spells the ones that are generally not subject to spell resistance? My assumption would be that they were put into conjuration for that reason, to keep inside that line (and on a side note, I've always been somewhat bemused by the spell schools and what goes into them).