Class Features
The following class features of the paladin have been changed from those in the Beta edition of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game.Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning its strength as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin can call out...
Etc, yeah, in general I like where you're going with these changes, because it really needed "something." The paladin in our playtest group is easily overshadowed in most combats by the group's barbarian and fighter characters, although all have similar strength scores and are the same levels (so BAB's match). Even against Evil foes he doesn't shine so much as dimly glimmer, because his powers are used so quickly and then - POOF! No more powers... you can't smite anymore today, you're out of healing too... Oh, but you can still Cure Disease twice today! What? Makes no sense...
Personally, I’d like to see all those “X times per day and again at Y per level for a max Z times at XX level…” blahblahblahblah… those need to be activated based on a divine or holy pool similar to a barbarian’s rage points system. It makes so much more sense, and it keeps a much more consistent theme with other classes that use pools of class specific points (barbarian’s rage points and monk’s ki pool).
On another note, since paladin's have their smite ability work so well on undead, it makes perfect sense to add Ghost Touch to the range of special powers they can grant to their weapon. Nearly all the creatures that are intangible are undead, so the paladin seems best suited to combat them.
Also, don't know if anyone else brought this up (1000+ posts is a lot to dig through, lol!) but I have one more idea to add: Due to the wide base of skills they have available, I think Paladins should have 4 skill points per level instead of 2. Unlike wizards which tend to have a high intelligence score to make up for it, a Paladin usually must put his ability scores in other more relevant slots (Charisma, Strength, Constitution, Wisdom). Even Dexterity is more important, leaving most paladins with either their lowest or their second lowest score in Intelligence. If they want to be good at Riding that mount they get, then they only get 1 or 2 more ranks per level to put into Sense Motive, or Religion, or Diplomacy, or anything else to make them more well-rounded off the battlemat. I've been doing this for years as a house-rule, but does anyone out there agree with me on this?
Curiosity killed the Bard...
I just want to add that that suggestion I read of letting the Paladin split his duration of Divine Bond ability sounds like the best thing since sliced bread! Thank you thank you thank you!!!
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Also, don't know if anyone else brought this up (1000+ posts is a lot to dig through, lol!) but I have one more idea to add: Due to the wide base of skills they have available, I think Paladins should have 4 skill points per level instead of 2. Unlike wizards which tend to have a high intelligence score to make up for it, a Paladin usually must put his ability scores in other more relevant slots (Charisma, Strength, Constitution, Wisdom). Even Dexterity is more important, leaving most paladins with either their lowest or their second lowest score in Intelligence. If they want to be good at Riding that mount they get, then they only get 1 or 2 more ranks per level to put into Sense Motive, or Religion, or Diplomacy, or anything else to make them more well-rounded off the battlemat. I've been doing this for years as a house-rule, but does anyone out there agree with me on this?
Curiosity killed the Bard...
I definitely agree, but the same argument can be made for the fighter. And Jason isn't willing to change skillpoint mins at the moment so I doubt the change will happen. Still in my playtest I had 4 per level and it was exactly the magic #.
I never liked (or used) 3rd edition's version of calling the mount from some place else.
You clearly never had one of those old-school draconian DMs that thought of everything not attached to your limbs as overpowered, the kind that will kill paladin mounts, animal companions and even familiars on session 1 just to make their point. =P
The ability to keep the mount someplace safe and summon it only when needed was a way to aleviate the problem, but I'll always prefer the new Divine Bond option any day of the week.
Um, why exactly does a paladin need Wisdom?
To cast spells perhaps?
Since PF paladins use Charisma for spellcasting, I'm thinking not so much.Um, why exactly does a paladin need Wisdom?To cast spells perhaps?
Charisma for spells and good will saves. No need for wisdom anymore :-)
And then gives him immunity to most will save effects over 20 levels, while giving bonuses to allies inside his aura.
Paladin has become nice (which is how it should be).
Charisma for spells and good will saves. No need for wisdom anymore :-)The paladin upgrade (see OP) even upgrades the paladin to good Will saves.
Somehow I keep missing saving throw progression and stat for spells, was that posted somewhere after the OP? If so, would anyone be so kind as to compile the full upgrades so far please?
Somehow I keep missing saving throw progression and stat for spells, was that posted somewhere after the OP? If so, would anyone be so kind as to compile the full upgrades so far please?Charisma for spells and good will saves. No need for wisdom anymore :-)The paladin upgrade (see OP) even upgrades the paladin to good Will saves.
- Paladin use Charisma for spells: See page 32 in the beta.
- Good will saves: see OP (Jasons first post in this thread).
Hi there all,
I have been working for a while on a number of upgrades to the paladin. Below is our current draft of these upgrades. These changes do not affect the paladin chart in any way save one. The paladin currently is upgraded to "good" Will saves, meaning that her Will saves match her Fortitude saves
I disagree with this. The new version of the paladin did what it needed to, make the paladin the best against evil outsiders and undead. That is their bread and butter far above anyone else. They are average against all the rest of the creatures.That's great, but a 16th level Paladin with the full TWF combat tree can liquify a Pit Fiend or a Balor in something like two rounds. That's insane. Frankly, I believe that both this ability AND Sneak Attack need to be nerfed something fierce.
I'm not sure I like the bonus damage vs. against evil outsiders and undead and nerfing the durantion of the smite at higher levels might be necessary, but smite needs to be "Nerfed something fierce"? I don't think so.
It seems you want a lot of other classes nerfed but not the fighter. Especially spell asters should be nerfed, right? Well not the Bard perhaps, but I guess you think the Bard is just great the way it is.And you wanna rewrite tons of spells and rework the spell system.
No more "Save-Or-Suck" spells, you want Recovery Saves.
Yes sure. Make the fighter better, no problem, but nerfing everything just because the fighter is not as good as you want it to be?
Make the fighter better, no problem, but nerfing everything just because the fighter is not as good as you want it to be?
There are people who aim to improve themselves, but for every such person, there are 10 others whose definition of "improvement" is taking everyone else down to their level and preventing them from achieving anything else.
Btw, thanks for the Paladin notes Zark. =)
Make the fighter better, no problem, but nerfing everything just because the fighter is not as good as you want it to be?There are people who aim to improve themselves, but for every such person, there are 10 others whose definition of "improvement" is taking everyone else down to their level and preventing them from achieving anything else.
Btw, thanks for the Paladin notes Zark. =)
Which explains the difference between a paladin and the fighter... ;D
Which explains the difference between a paladin and the fighter... ;DMake the fighter better, no problem, but nerfing everything just because the fighter is not as good as you want it to be?There are people who aim to improve themselves, but for every such person, there are 10 others whose definition of "improvement" is taking everyone else down to their level and preventing them from achieving anything else.
Btw, thanks for the Paladin notes Zark. =)
LOL
Make the fighter better, no problem, but nerfing everything just because the fighter is not as good as you want it to be?There are people who aim to improve themselves, but for every such person, there are 10 others whose definition of "improvement" is taking everyone else down to their level and preventing them from achieving anything else.
Btw, thanks for the Paladin notes Zark. =)
No problem. I hope Jason post a pdf with the new Paladin and fix the errata in the beta (page 7 where is says Paladins get bonus spells based on their Wisdom scores, etc.).
Please clarify how the (revised) paladin's channel energy ability interacts with a cleric's channel energy ability. I'm not sure how a multi-classed cleric/paladin is supposed to work any more.
Please clarify how the (revised) paladin's channel energy ability interacts with a cleric's channel energy ability. I'm not sure how a multi-classed cleric/paladin is supposed to work any more.
"I'm not sure how a multi-classed cleric/paladin is supposed to work any more." Well no one is. It's very unclear. So you are not alone.