Director of Games
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Hey there all,
I have spent the past few days reworking some of the rules for animal companions. I would like you to use these rules and tell me what you think. Of particular interest, I would like to know if you find them balanced across all levels (are they useful, but not overpowering)? Is the same true for the ranger and the paladin? Are the rules simple to use (or at least as simple as the old animal companion rules)? These rules leave open the door for a host of new animal companion types, what types should be included? Finally, do you prefer these rules to the existing rules?
Please note that these rules do not represent a final decision in this matter, just an alternate way of how we might do things.
Take them for a spin. Let me know how it goes.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
DRUID ANIMAL COMPANIONS
The following rules for animal companions replace those found under the nature bond ability gained by druids at 1st level. A druid can still select a domain instead of an animal companion at 1st level.
RANGER ANIMAL COMPANIONS
The following rules for animal companions replace those found under the hunter’s bond ability gained by rangers at 4th level. This ability functions like the druid ability of the same name, except that the ranger’s effective druid level is equal to his ranger level –3. A ranger can still select to form a bond with those he hunts with instead of animal companion at 4th level.
PALADIN BONDED MOUNT
The following rules for animal companions replace those found under the divine bond ability gained by paladins at 5th level. This ability functions like the druid ability of the same name, using the paladin’s level as her effective druid level. A paladin can only select a boar, camel, dog, heavy horse, light horse, or pony as her animal companion. Paladin animal companions have a minimum Intelligence score of 6. A paladin can still select to bond with her weapon instead of an animal companion at 5th level.
ANIMAL COMPANIONS
An animal companion’s abilities are determined by the druid’s level and by the type of animal that it is. Although it is generally superior to a normal animal of its kind, some start out less powerful and grow over time. Table X–XX determines many of the base statistics of the animal companion.
Class Level: The character’s druid level. The druid’s class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion’s statistics.
HD: This is the total number of eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice the animal companion possesses, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal.
BAB: This is the animal companion’s base attack bonus. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. Animal companions do not gain additional attacks using their natural weapons for a high base attack bonus.
Fort/Ref/Will: These are the animal companion’s base saving throw bonuses. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves.
Skills: This is the total number of skill points an animal companion possesses. Animal companions can assign their skill points to any of the skills listed under Animal Skills. If an animal companion increases its Intelligence to 10 or higher, it gains additional skill points. Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can purchase ranks in any skill. As with characters, an animal companion cannot have more ranks in a skill then it has Hit Dice.
Feats: This is the total number of feats possessed by an animal companion. Animal companions should select their feats from those listed under Animal Feats. Animal companions can select other feats, although they are unable to utilize some feats (such as Martial Weapon Proficiency). Note that animal companions cannot select a feat with a requirement of base attack bonus +1 until they gain their second feat at 3 Hit Dice.
Natural Armor Bonus: The number noted here is an improvement to the animal companion’s existing natural armor bonus.
Str/Dex Bonus: Add this value to the animal companion’s Strength and Dexterity scores.
Bonus Tricks: The value given in this column is the total number of “bonus” tricks that the animal knows in addition to any that the druid might choose to teach it (see the Handle Animal skill). These bonus tricks don’t require any training time or Handle Animal checks, and they don’t count against the normal limit of tricks known by the animal. The druid selects these bonus tricks, and once selected, they can’t be changed.
Special: This includes a number of abilities gained by animal companions as they increase in power. Each of these bonuses is described below.
Link (Ex): A druid can handle her animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if she doesn’t have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The druid gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding an animal companion.
Share Spells (Ex): The druid may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her animal companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A druid may cast spells on her animal companion even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion’s type (animal).
Evasion (Ex): If an animal companion is subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, it takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw.
Ability Score Increase (Ex): The animal companion adds +1 to one of its ability scores.
Devotion (Ex): An animal companion gains a +4 morale bonus on Will saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Multiattack: An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty.
Improved Evasion (Ex): When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, an animal companion takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and only half damage if the saving throw fails.
Table X–XX: Animal Companion Base Statistics
>>>>>>>>Natural
Class>>>>>>>>Armor>Str/Dex>Bonus
Level>HD>BAB>Fort>Ref>Will>Skills>Feats>Bonus>Bo nus>Tricks>Special
1>2>+1>+3>+3>+0>2>1>+0>+0>1>Link, share spells
2>3>+2>+3>+3>+1>3>2>+0>+0>1>—
3>3>+2>+3>+3>+1>3>2>+2>+1>2>Evasion
4>4>+3>+4>+4>+1>4>2>+2>+1>2>Ability score increase
5>5>+3>+4>+4>+1>5>3>+2>+1>2>—
6>6>+4>+5>+5>+2>6>3>+4>+2>3>Devotion
7>6>+4>+5>+5>+2>6>3>+4>+2>3>—
8>7>+5>+5>+5>+2>7>4>+4>+2>3>—
9>8>+6>+6>+6>+2>8>4>+6>+3>4>Ability score increase, Multiattack
10>9>+6>+6>+6>+3>9>5>+6>+3>4>—
11>9>+6>+6>+6>+3>9>5>+6>+3>4>—
12>10>+7>+7>+7>+3>10>5>+8>+4>5>—
13>11>+8>+7>+7>+3>11>6>+8>+4>5>—
14>12>+9>+8>+8>+4>12>6>+8>+4>5>Ability score increase
15>12>+9>+8>+8>+4>12>6>+10>+5>6>Improved evasion
16>13>+9>+8>+8>+4>13>7>+10>+5>6>—
17>14>+10>+9>+9>+4>14>7>+10>+5>6>—
18>15>+11>+9>+9>+5>15>8>+12>+6>7>—
19>15>+11>+9>+9>+5>15>8>+12>+6>7>—
20>16>+12>+10>+10>+5>16>8>+12>+6>7>Ability score increase
((Note: To read this table, paste it into a word document and replace all of the ">" with "^t" or tabs))
Animal Skills
Animal companions can have ranks in any of the following skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Fly (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str). All of these skills are class skills for animal companions.
Animal Feats
Animal companions can select from the following feats: Acrobatic, Agile Maneuvers, Armor Proficiency (all), Athletic, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Die Hard, Dodge, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Overrun, Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Run, Skill Focus, Spring Attack, Stealthy, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus.
Animal Types
Each animal companion has a type, which defines it starting size, speed, attacks, ability scores, and other special qualities. As you gain in levels, your animal companion gains in power as well, usually at 4th or 7th level, in addition to the standard bonuses noted on table X–XX.
Ape
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 30 ft., Climb 30 ft.; AC +1 natural armor; Attack 2 claws (1d4), bite (1d4); Ability Scores Str 13, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
4th Level Advancement: Size Large; AC +2 natural armor; Attack 2 claws (1d6), bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4.
Badger (Wolverine)
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 30 ft., burrow 10 ft., climb 10 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Attack 2 claws (1d3), bite (1d4); Ability Scores Str 10, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10; Special Attacks rage; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
4th Level Advancement: Size Medium; Attack 2 claws (1d4), bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str +4, Dex –2, Con +2.
Bear
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 40 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Attack 2 claws (1d3), bite (1d4); Ability Scores Str 15, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
4th Level Advancement: Size Medium; Attack 2 claws (1d4), bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 4, Dex –2, Con +2.
Bird (Eagle/Hawk/Owl)
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 10 ft., fly 80 ft. (average); AC +1 natural armor; Attack 2 talons (1d4), bite (1d4); Ability Scores Str 10, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision.
4th Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2.
Boar
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 40 ft.; AC +6 natural armor; Attack gore (1d6); Ability Scores Str 11, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 4; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
4th Level Advancement: Size Medium; Attack gore (1d8); Ability Scores Str 4, Dex –2, Con +2; Special Attacks ferocity.
Camel
Starting Statistics: Size Large; Speed 50 ft.; AC +1 natural armor; Attack bite* (1d4*); Ability Scores Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent. * A camel’s bite is a treated as a secondary attack and adds only half the camel’s Str bonus on the damage roll.
4th Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2.
Cat, Big (Lion, Tiger)
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +1 natural armor; Attack 2 claws (1d4), bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 13, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; Special Attacks pounce; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
7th Level Advancement: Size Large; AC +2 natural armor; Attack 2 claws (1d6), bite (1d8); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4; Special Attacks improved grab, rake (1d6).
Cat, Small (Cheetah, Leopard)
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 50 ft.; AC +1 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4), 2 claws (1d2); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 21, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Attacks trip; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
4th Level Advancement: Size Medium; Attack bite (1d6), 2 claws (1d2); Ability Scores Str 4, Dex –2, Con +2; Special Qualities sprint.
Crocodile (Alligator)
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 20 ft., swim 30 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 15, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2; Special Qualities hold breath, low-light vision.
4th Level Advancement: Size Medium; Attack bite (1d8) or tail slap (1d12); Ability Scores Str +4, Dex –2, Con +2; Special Attacks improved grab.
Dinosaur, Theropod (Megaraptor, Tyrannosaurus)
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d8); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
7th Level Advancement: Size Large; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (2d6); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4; Special Attacks improved grab, swallow whole.
Dire Rat
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 40 ft., climb 20 ft.; AC +1 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4); Ability Scores Str 10, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4; Special Attacks disease; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
4th Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2.
Dog
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 40 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4); Ability Scores Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
4th Level Advancement: Size Medium; Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str +4, Dex –2, Con +2.
Horse, heavy
Starting Statistics: Size Large; Speed 50 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack 2 hooves (1d6*); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent. * A horse’s bite is a treated as a secondary attack and adds only half the horse’s Str bonus on the damage roll.
4th Level Advancement: Attack 2 hooves (1d6), bite (1d4); Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2; Special Qualities war trained.
Horse, light
Starting Statistics: Size Large; Speed 60 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack 2 hooves (1d4*); Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent. * A horse’s bite is a treated as a secondary attack and adds only half the horse’s Str bonus on the damage roll.
4th Level Advancement: Attack 2 hooves (1d4), bite (1d3); Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2; Special Qualities war trained.
Monitor Lizard
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 30 ft., swim 30 ft.; AC +3 natural armor; Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2; Special Qualities low-light vision.
4th Level Advancement: Size Medium; Attack bite (1d8); Ability Scores Str +4, Dex –2, Con +2.
Pony
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Attack 2 hooves (1d3*); Ability Scores Str 13, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent. * A pony’s bite is a treated as a secondary attack and adds only half the camel’s Str bonus on the damage roll.
4th Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2; Special Qualities war trained.
Shark
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed swim 60 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4); Ability Scores Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2; Special Qualities keen scent.
4th Level Advancement: Size Medium; Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str +4, Dex –2, Con +2; Special Qualities blindsense.
Snake, constrictor
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 20 ft., climb 20 ft., swim 20 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d2); Ability Scores Str 13, Dex 19, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2; Special Attacks improved grab; Special Qualities scent.
4th Level Advancement: Size Medium; Attack bite (1d3); Ability Scores Str +4, Dex –2, Con +2; Special Attacks constrict (1d3+4).
Snake, viper
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 20 ft., climb 20 ft., swim 20 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4 plus poison); Ability Scores Str 8, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2; Special Attacks poison (1d6 Con/1d6 Con, Con-based DC); Special Qualities scent.
4th Level Advancement: Size Large; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4.
Wolf
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 50 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Attacks trip; Special Qualities scent.
7th Level Advancement: Size Large; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d8); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4.
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Jason, I'm wondering if the "Skills" entry needs some revision.
In the introduction it states that AC can take any skill, then in the actual entry it mentions only a specific few skills. I understand the aim (to provide a list of class skills) but the wording makes it seem like it is only those skills, which contradicts the normal skill system.
Time Travel: I had a few minutes of trouble with the table as well. Hmm.
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Hmm.. it appears that the table does not import too well after all. I am looking for solutions.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Jason, would you mind if I posted the table on my LiveJournal as a jpeg?
EDIT: Sorry, I asked James for some reason. I was thinking about Dinosaurs. :)
Tyrannosaurus... Size MediumThat can't be right.
It starts at medium and then advances in size. It's a generic therapod...not sure about that, the wording should be that in some cases you acquire a new companion. Otherwise it feels like Pokemon for some companions.
I'm wondering if there should be a ranking system again, where some companions take longer to get all of their abilities. For example, a Wolf is clearly better than a Dog.
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The biggest problem I see with these rules (from a Paladin's standpoint) is that the rules for druid animal companions and paladin mounts are merged into one ruleset. While this does streamline all the content to make animal companions easier, it erases the flavor of the paladin's mount.
To me the mount has always seen as a "special" companion. One that you can talk to, and is magical in nature. As it stands most of the magical aspects of the paladin mount have been removed - spell resistance or command of like creatures; in addition the non-magical flavor of the mount has been removed - it being a better mount (improved speed). That being said, the idea of merging the rulesets has solved one of the major problems with mounts, lower hit dice than normal. I do like how the HD of the creature increases just below the character, getting as high as 16 by level 20.
But this merging of rulesets has eliminated the other fantastic element that I loved about paladin mounts - the ability to have something other than a horse. I was expecting a continuation of the ability to have a mount that is a magical beast / other animal. The most iconic mount one of my paladins ever had was a Bearhound (MMIII), and Maus (as she was known) wasn't overpowered... but was one of the defining features of the character. I guess the reason I bring this up is that I'd love to see the flat HD as an option (or more bonus HD), but at the same time I'd hate to see the loss of other animal companions, such as bears, bearhounds, pegasi, etc.
P.S. I love the changes for druids and rangers, although again I wonder how the rules will work with other animal choices that you can get at later levels. Oh and the table works for me.... so long as I reduce the text size to 8 or so before I copy the text in and use paste special.
Jason,
One of the issues I've had with animal companions in the past is that at low levels (1-4) their special abilities can overshadow those of the PC combatants with them. In particular we had a lot of issues with the riding dog's free 'trip' ability which is in some ways superior to the 'improved trip' feat. I am concerned that this system will have similar issues. (Edit: Thinking about this a little, the relatively low HP and AC of the animals at low levels in this version will probably make this a non-issue).
The other issue I see is perhaps not a big one. There are some forms that are just a bit better than others, in general the larger forms are more powerful than the smaller... I guess that makes a bit of sense.
I'm still poking at it but overall though I think it's a huge improvement... I like that it brings consistency across classes and offers the players a lot more flexibility advancing their animal companion. We were discussing stealth and animal companions and this works very nicely as you can have a cat with Skill Focus Stealth and skill ranks.
I would also love to see some flying mounts in there, maybe the birds could move up to size M at 7th level so at least halflings can fly? By that level flying should be pretty common.
*We finally get cats for low levels, Lini will smile at you*
Gotta plug some stats before I comment any more.
PS: table works fine for me.
Would it be at all possible to add warhorses for paladins? Pretty please? With sugar on top? In 3.5, a "heavy horse" isn't a "heavy warhorse" for some reason -- or has that changed in Pathfinder, and they've been eliminated in favor of basic heavy horses with "war training"?
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Director of Games
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The biggest problem I see with these rules (from a Paladin's standpoint) is that the rules for druid animal companions and paladin mounts are merged into one ruleset. While this does streamline all the content to make animal companions easier, it erases the flavor of the paladin's mount.
To me the mount has always seen as a "special" companion. One that you can talk to, and is magical in nature. As it stands most of the magical aspects of the paladin mount have been removed - spell resistance or command of like creatures; in addition the non-magical flavor of the mount has been removed - it being a better mount (improved speed). That being said, the idea of merging the rulesets has solved one of the major problems with mounts, lower hit dice than normal. I do like how the HD of the creature increases just below the character, getting as high as 16 by level 20.
But this merging of rulesets has eliminated the other fantastic element that I loved about paladin mounts - the ability to have something other than a horse. I was expecting a continuation of the ability to have a mount that is a magical beast / other animal. The most iconic mount one of my paladins ever had was a Bearhound (MMIII), and Maus (as she was known) wasn't overpowered... but was one of the defining features of the character. I guess the reason I bring this up is that I'd love to see the flat HD as an option (or more bonus HD), but at the same time I'd hate to see the loss of other animal companions, such as bears, bearhounds, pegasi, etc.
P.S. I love the changes for druids and rangers, although again I wonder how the rules will work with other animal choices that you can get at later levels. Oh and the table works for me.... so long as I reduce the text size to 8 or so before I copy the text in and use paste special.
Couple of notes. I think this system could easily have some of the special bits for the paladin mount added back in, making them more special (in some regards) than a normal animal companion (the Int boost is just one way that might work). I also think that better mounts are certainly possible through the use of a feat, ala improved familiar (it even makes sense from a consistency standpoint). As an aside, there are no additional animal choices at higher levels. I might add to this list, but more powerful animals might only be accessible through a feat (as with the paladin mount).
I think this system provides a whole lot of flexibility while still doing everything the old system did. Most importantly, if you want to be a druid with a bear companion, you can now do that from first level, and keep that companion all the way through 20th level (whereas before this was impossible at 1st, and suboptimal at later levels).
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Would it be at all possible to add warhorses for paladins? Pretty please? With sugar on top? (a "heavy horse" isn't a "heavy warhorse" for some reason).
Yeah. For heavy horse think draft horse. Heavy warhorse is a destrier. Again, it's a language issue. But I see Jason has pointed out the added bonus to horses below.
Jason: I'm convincing my Red Hand of Doom PbP Druid to use these rules, he's level 4 now so the changes won't be seen until later.
Any response on my jpeg question?
Oops. One more question/ observation. It's not entirely clear if the character levels stack for the purposes of the animal companion. Based on the way it's structured it seems they do but there is a similar confusion in the 3.5 animal companions.
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Director of Games
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Would it be at all possible to add warhorses for paladins? Pretty please? With sugar on top? In 3.5, a "heavy horse" isn't a "heavy warhorse" for some reason -- or has that changed in Pathfinder, and they've been eliminated in favor of basic heavy horses with "war training"?
When the horse gets "war training" its stats are almost exactly that of a warhorse. Remember, the paladin does not take a level hit for his bonded mount, so when he gets it, it already has war training. That was just my code phrase for implying that it does not spook in combat.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Director of Games
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Oops. One more question/ observation. It's not entirely clear if the character levels stack for the purposes of the animal companion. Based on the way it's structured it seems they do but there is a similar confusion in the 3.5 animal companions.
They do. The exact language is still being clarified.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Director of Games
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Jason, I'm wondering if the "Skills" entry needs some revision.
In the introduction it states that AC can take any skill, then in the actual entry it mentions only a specific few skills. I understand the aim (to provide a list of class skills) but the wording makes it seem like it is only those skills, which contradicts the normal skill system.
Time Travel: I had a few minutes of trouble with the table as well. Hmm.
Currently, that is my thought. Animals should not have the entire skill list at their disposal. Creatures with an Int that low cannot speak, let along have a grasp of Knowledge (nobility). That said, I think this is certainly up to debate. Since I am letting the PC pick the skills, I wanted to avoid really strange choices.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
For those interested in a clean version of the table:
Thanks Jal. It's a lot easier to read.
Wow, this is pretty darn good. I was worried about a system like this taking away variation, but it actually has a good number of options. Couple of questions:
-Is bear meant to be medium>large, instead of small> medium?
-can a player opt NOT to take the advancement?
-Do you have any plans for ways in which you might expand this?
-Any possibility of getting pounce back for the pets that had it? or is this deemed too powerful?
Couple small gripes that I would respectfully like to present before playing it:
-Paladin options too limited. Classic things like the pegasus and the griffon won't be usable on this list, and some things, like a dire tiger mount, are excluded by this system.
-I don't like the limited feat selection, this'd make ACs the only things that can't take whatever feats they want as level-based feats.
-Edit: I'm uneducated, and apparently can't read. What I meant was, can we get the deinonychus someplace on the list? Or at least give it a variant advancement that looks more like the old entry with the multiple attacks?
Please don't take these as anything but questions and constructive criticisms, this is honestly sounding like a really good compromise.
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Director of Games
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Since animal companions with an Int higher than 3 can take any skills, can we assume that they can choose any feat as well because of higher Int?
Yes you can. I would also point out that this list is by no means definitive. There are certainly other feats from other sources that would make for perfectly good choice. Although I am wondering if we need some common sense language added, restricting animal companions from taking feats like Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kukri....
Thoughts
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I like the overall system.
I think giving SOME base creature types a minimum level would be appropriate. (It also gives mid/higher level PCs more options without strictly REQUIRING an Improved Companion Feat) It's not mentioned, but I presume since the focus seems to be on keeping/upgrading the same Companion, that the method to replace a dead/un-wanted Companion is more time-intensive, or at least linked to "levelling up"...?
You mentioned a Feat like Improved Familiar, which could allow access to "higher tier" Companions, which I think would pretty much be a necessity, given people like their "cool" pets, like Dionychii(?), Orca, Sabretooths and Great Roc... There could be distinct Feats (or tables) for the Paladin, so they could gain access to things like Pegasi and Celestial type creatures, while the Druid & Ranger would gain more mundanely impressive Animal-type Companions (and perhaps Magical Animal/ Plant/ Fey?). Following the logic of the system, the "Improved Companion" Feat could also have two "tiers" of Companions, that grow up/exchange as you level.
Likewise, it'd be nice to have an "Enhanced Companion" Feat which could increase the Companion's Intelligence, and grant some Familiar-like capabilities. Having several Companion Feats allows a character to gain enhanced Companions with cool abilities, and generally let them be more effective at higher levels, but at the cost of other abilities they could achieve with their Feats, which sounds like a great trade-off to me.
Like was mentioned, the Paladin's Mount needs to have unique powers beyond what is this basic system. I've mentioned different ideas in the thread on the Paladin Mount, but generally: increased Intelligence, Will Saves, and minor Celestial-flavored abilities, and perhaps Familiar-like Telepathy and even Teleport/Gate at higher levels. For the Paladin Companion, an "Enhanced Companion" Feat could add SLAs and/or synergize with the Paladin's Smite/Spellcasting/other Class Abilities...
...But I like this as a simple, universal "base system" that can be extended with Feats and the like for those who want Stronger/more Exotic/more Adept Companions....
Should Multi-Attack be on the list of Animal Feats, giving Companions a way to gain it earlier than they would otherwise? The wording of the first part could allow it anyways, but it's wording is very unclear... (and being a non-PC Feat, Multi-Attack should probably be on the list explicitly) ...Though just making Multi-Attack ONLY achievable at appropriate level is a balanced AND simple solution :-)
Since animal companions with an Int higher than 3 can take any skills, can we assume that they can choose any feat as well because of higher Int?Yes you can. I would also point out that this list is by no means definitive. There are certainly other feats from other sources that would make for perfectly good choice. Although I am wondering if we need some common sense language added, restricting animal companions from taking feats like Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kukri....
Although if a Companion has sufficient Intelligence (minimum Humanoid = 6?) and compatable anatomy (like hands/ opposable thumbs) using weaponry is a very reasonable thing, although it should probably require a Trick as well as a Feat (would Simple Weapons Feat be necessary for an Ape? At least Martial would, before being eligible for Exotic Proficiency...)
But what about the Leadership Feat? That one'd be interesting :-)
Wow. Nice change, I like this.
Paladin mounts can be added, just as other types of familiars and such have been added. Just use what is listed as a guild.
I do like the thought of a feat allowing such things as griffins and more fantastic mounts.
Awww that means I can't use my paladins (they had unicorn and Pegasus mounts). Perhaps they could add some magical beast that can fly or at least Dire Bat for Paladins?
Well as PFRPG has more feats , and if they add a feat for better mounts I don't see an issue. Once you move them over they will have at lest 1 extra feat
And dragons, please. Be it a feat just for dragons with many pre-requisite feats and all, but please, pretty please, the player who reads the player's handbook must read that he can, someday, somehow, have a mighty dragon as his holy mount.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I like the change overall, and I think with appropriate tweaking and further development (additional feat for improved choices as already mentioned, etc.) this will beceome a great system. I'm also very glad that the progression is every level now and more gradual. On this note though, I'd prefer to see the levels that don't grant a HD increase have some other increase. For instance, level 3 doesn't increase the HD, but does give the another bonus trick and evasion. However, level 7 also doesn't increase the HD, and gives no increase or bonus at all. I'd rather see level 7 be the first level that grants a 3rd bonus trick and grants devotion. Currently these are part of level 6 combined with a HD increase. Similarly, level 11 could have multiattack and the 5th bonus trick, level 15 is good as is, and level 19 needs something, though I don't know what off the top of my head.
A question I have about this system is when the AC increases in size. Is this supposed to have any kind of in game explanation? I'm fine with this happening, but a brief 1-2 sentence reason would be great - something like "at a certain point, the druid infuses the AC with the power of nature which grants increased size or abilities."
For the animal skill list, survival should definately be added to the list, to allow for tracking animals like dogs to become better at it.
For the animal feat list, great fortitude should be included, since the other saving throw enhancer feats are.
Also, you have a copy and paste error on the light horse, heavy horse and pony where you mention that their bite is a secondary attack that adds only half the camel's Str bonus.
I like it! I've been reworking a few existing characters and I like the way their new animal companions look. The natural progression also helps replace the awkward mechanic of trading out the old animal companion and acquiring a new one (we had several instances of a wolf wandering off and a Tyrannosaurus wandering back).
Several thoughts:
I would really like to see a feat option that allows you to apply a template or themed abilities to your animal companion. Paladins could add Celestial or perhaps an equivalent of War-Trained (from MMII); Druids and Rangers have access to elemental templates or similar nature themed abilities.
Alternatively, it could be part of the natural progression of the animal companion. At higher levels, it would add some power to a creature that doesn't scale well with its master.
The combat advantages of the medium and large creatures are rather pronounced. I'm not convinced that a small creature, like the dog or small cat, have enough to make them tempting options. Low-light vision is alright, but not weighty enough to pull you away from the Wolf or Lion. The smaller animals are better at hiding and scouting, but this won't be very useful until the animal has enough intelligence to follow complex orders.
The same is true with the dire rat, whose disease ability is not really going to factor into a fight against most enemies (what with the onset time).
The Viper's poison ability while weak at first looks like it could become very powerful. The Viper gains Constitution points quickly, increasing the save DC. Con Damage is nothing to sneeze at, and an animal that can deal it out every round, coupled with a few Poison spells from the nearby Druid, it can kill a very tough opponent who loses a few saves. Would Dex damage be balanced?
Overall, I like the chart and the options. The numbers work well, and it gives the Druid/Ranger/Paladin a chance to select an animal companion that fits with their theme rather than just its abilities. As I play some adventures with these creatures I'll try and report back the results. Thanks for letting us see this!
Since animal companions with an Int higher than 3 can take any skills, can we assume that they can choose any feat as well because of higher Int?Yes you can. I would also point out that this list is by no means definitive. There are certainly other feats from other sources that would make for perfectly good choice. Although I am wondering if we need some common sense language added, restricting animal companions from taking feats like Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kukri....
Thoughts
Common sense language is probably a necessity, as a Bastard Sword-wielding super-horse wouldn't be past some of my players.
Please consider adding Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, and Great Fortitude to the list (without the prequisite of combat expertise). Great Fortitude seems a natural choice, given the other save-boosting feats on the list. Improved Disarm and Improved Trip can be powerful, but I can see the logic behind allowing a well-trained wolf from trying to wrestle the sword or wand from an opponent's hand, or a well-trained snake from pulling the legs out from the skulking wizard. It is also in keeping with Improved Bullrush or Improved Overrun.
Actually, I like the differences in stats we see up there. First of all, it keeps the ridiculousness of an eagle and a dire wolf having the same str score, which we can all agree is silly. Second of all, there are some big tradeoffs for whichever pets you decide to get. Sure, that shiny large pet seems like a great idea. But that's until you have to figure out how to get it the hell into the dungeon.
But, really, this must be the way to go, as no one seems to dislike it.
I'm going to have to look this over in some detail, but it seems like a good ruleset for Animal Companions at first blush! I'm not so sure about its suitability for Paladin Mounts - I'll have to sit down and have a talk with my gaming group about it before I can come to that decision. That being said, I do have a few questions for you:
1) How do you intend on handling Size changes in Pathfinder? Based on the Polymorph size changes listed on P. 160, I was under the impression that ability score bonuses and penalties for size changes had changed from the ones listed on P. 291 of the 3.5 DMG. The Animal Companions seem to be following the latter rules for Size changes rather then the former, and I'm wondering what the "norm" for Pathfinder will be.
2) Which leads to my second question: will the current Size increase bonuses granted by Animal Growth be retained, or will they be reduced? I realize that this is a spell as opposed to an element of the Animal Companion class feature, but casters slather this buff all over their Animal Companions and (in some cases) their Summoned Animals, and I can't help but think that the role of this spell has to be considered when determining the final balance and power of the Animal Companion.
2) Is there any possibility of adding Vermin Animal Companions to this list? I realize that as they stand right now, Vermin are "mindless", but I've never thought that this was a good way to handle them. As they stand right now, Vermin have no INT scores and basically function as organic constructs. I believe that they should instead be assigned an INT score of 1 to reflect their limited (rather then non-existent) animal intelligence and work much like "normal" animals. My colleagues and I have always assumed that Vermin could not be Animal Companions because they were "mindless" and because they were unable to scale to higher levels without massive increases in size - I believe that these new rules would address the second issue very well.
That's all that I have for now. Thank you very much for listening!
For those that were having issues with the table formatting, or just want something a bit easier to reference, I threw everything into a PDF, with similar formatting to the main pathfinder book, bookmarks, etc.
I'll do my best to keep it up to date with any changes that come down the line. Hope it helps!
The pdf can be downloaded here. (http://rapidshare.com/files/152563499/Animal_Companion.pdf.html)
Please consider adding Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, and Great Fortitude to the list (without the prequisite of combat expertise). Great Fortitude seems a natural choice, given the other save-boosting feats on the list. Improved Disarm and Improved Trip can be powerful, but I can see the logic behind allowing a well-trained wolf from trying to wrestle the sword or wand from an opponent's hand, or a well-trained snake from pulling the legs out from the skulking wizard. It is also in keeping with Improved Bullrush or Improved Overrun.
The Wolf already retains the "Trip" Special Attack. And I don't think that any animal should be able to take feats like Improved Disarm or Improved Trip without taking the proper prerequisites.
I think we all agree that Great Fortitude needs to be put on the Feat List, but this isn't a final Feat list, so I'm not surprised that it was accidentally omitted.
I agree with Monster Rancher's Eyeball about the vermin.
I always found strange that vermin were "mindless" since i'm an enthusiast of the study of insects and all those little suckers. Some insects have very interesting social structures, and while they certainly aren't inteligent, "mindless" seems so much very strange. Everyone knows that Tarantula spiders can hve some sort of fondness for their caretakers not very much different from snakes and other lowlier lizards... Just give them 1 int and life is good.
...this opens to one of my players wanting to make a paladin of the desert, or as he said "The White Rider of the Waste!", a falchion wielding arabian-nights themed paladin dressed in white robes and turbant, atop a gleaming silver giant scorpion.....
.....
I would like to add my voice to the list of supporters. This is a tidy and even handed solution. I feel the Paladin benefits quite nicely from this change and look forward to seeing how the concepts discussed here can be expanded upon using feats at a later time.
Again, it will require a few laps around the gaming table before I have more to say on the subject, but I'm excited to see how the new system goes.
And thank you to Jal for posting the table. Very much appreciated!
Edit: I too have always longed for Vermin companion (that sounded creepy, sorry). Maybe if we dealt with the (admittedly weak) poison abilities so prevalent among the species, the concept would have more legs.
Re: Vermin, isn't there a Rat on the list?
If you're meaning Insects, I could see that as being a distinct Feat.
The problem with insects is really that they are much less "trainable"
for purposes of Handle Animal Tricks... But a Feat could have enough
woo-woo fluff to explain that away thru 'mystical connection' or whatnot.
I spent most of the day working on an alternative system as well. Mine merges animal companions, familiars and paladin mounts into one. I'll try and finish it up tomorrow and post it.
Cheers
If you're meaning Insects, I could see that as being a distinct Feat. The problem with insects is really that they are much less "trainable" for purposes of Handle Animal Tricks.
Why? Riding Vermin is a fairly common fantasy trope. You've got Drow and Deurgar riding Spiders in the Underdark. Why not just make Vermin like other animals and be done with it?
Edit: I too have always longed for Vermin companion (that sounded creepy, sorry). Maybe if we dealt with the (admittedly weak) poison abilities so prevalent among the species, the concept would have more legs.
I would recommend depriving Vermin of their Poison abilities until they have their first size change. Or just dump the Poison altogether and give them better regular attacks. My main issues are with critters with Acid Spray and Trample. What would be the best way to adjudicate that?
Some more questions for Jason:
1) How would the Animal Companion gained from the Animal Domain be handled? Would they be integrated under these rules? Or do they play by a different set of rules altogether? Or will this Domain Ability just end up getting the axe?
2) Can you still get the "original" version of these Animal Companions by taking Leadership? Or will this system also be used for Animal Cohorts that can be gained with Leadership? Does this mean that say for example a Rogue could also gain an Animal Companion by taking Leadership?
Thanks!
...problems displaying table...
I recommend using a Google spreadsheet.
ala
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pg3rpbuiUpPniNf0SkGfTJg
I like the fact that it's more standardized, but nevertheless would like to see the Paladin's Mount getting a slightly different treatment (and I am aware of the contradiction in what I am saying). To keep the general standardized format, I would merely replace some abilities with those more appropriate to the Paladin's mount, probably in a very limited manner, such as:
Evasion --> Mettle
Improved Evasion --> Improved Mettle
I like the fact that it's more standardized, but nevertheless would like to see the Paladin's Mount getting a slightly different treatment (and I am aware of the contradiction in what I am saying). To keep the general standardized format, I would merely replace some abilities with those more appropriate to the Paladin's mount, probably in a very limited manner, such as:
Evasion --> Mettle
Improved Evasion --> Improved Mettle
Looking at that... it might not even be worth the extra complication. Maybe it can just stay as you wrote it.
I like the way this system works (in theory). I would suggest opening up the paladin's list for special mounts a little more just so they can ride T. rexes. (Why? Because that'd be awesome.)
I also think it would be thematic for paladins to have the celestial template applied to their special mounts at some point.
Some Stat Blocks... Not 100% sure these are right. I assumed that the first attack was the primary weapon so the secondary attacks are at -5:
1st level big cat
STR: 13 (+1) DEX: 17 (+3) CON: 13 (+1) INT: 2 (-4) WIS: 15 (+2) CHA: 10 (0)
Init: 0 Speed: 40 ft.
---------------- Defenses -----------------------
HP: 15
AC: 14 flat-foot: 11 touch: 13 (/ )
Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +2
---------------- Offenses -----------------------
melee : 2 claws +2 (1d4+1)
melee : bite +3 (1d6)
-------------------------------------------------
[/b]Pounce
---------------- Special Abilities -----------------------
[b]Link, share spells
Feats: Toughness
Skills: Climb +2, Stealth +4
2nd level
STR: 13 (+1) DEX: 17 (+3) CON: 13 (+1) INT: 2 (-4) WIS: 15 (+2) CHA: 10 (0)
Init: 0 Speed: 40 ft.
---------------- Defenses -----------------------
HP: 23
AC: 14 flat-foot: 11 touch: 13 (/ )
Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +3
---------------- Offenses -----------------------
melee : 2 claws +3 (1d4+1)
melee : bite -2 (1d6)
-------------------------------------------------
[/b]Pounce
---------------- Special Abilities -----------------------
[b]Link, share spells
Feats: Toughness, Combat Reflexes
Skills: Climb +2, Stealth +5
4th level
STR: 14 (+2) DEX: 18 (+4) CON: 14 (+1) INT: 2 (-4) WIS: 15 (+2) CHA: 10 (0)
Init: 0 Speed: 40 ft.
---------------- Defenses -----------------------
HP: 36
AC: 15 flat-foot: 11 touch: 14 (/ )
Fort +5 Ref +8 Will +3
---------------- Offenses -----------------------
melee : 2 claws +5 (1d4+2)
melee : bite +0 (1d6+1)
-------------------------------------------------
[/b]Pounce
---------------- Special Abilities -----------------------
[b]Link, share spells
[/b]Evasion
[b]Ability score increase
Feats: Toughness, Combat Reflexes
Skills: Climb +3, Stealth +7
No guarantees about accuracy.
I'll get some higher level versions of Simba up tomorrow... err later today ;) Then try and whip up some other companions. I just cooked these up so I'm not gonna comment on them yet.
EDIT: HP were off, I think I fixed it but...
Jason: Pounce at first level is too powerful.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I thought of another few feats that should be added. The series of Armor Proficiency feats to allow for barding. Either that, or have these feats be part of the war training, and have rules for how to get non-horse companions become war trained and be able to wear barding.