I see a lot of posts refering to how or why the fighter should be better at his job. My thought is that a DM should know the limits of his adventuring party and eventually know when/if said monster or group of monsters is simply too tough for the party in question. This applies even if the adventure is a prefab module.
Dan, I understand your point, so I'm hoping to post before some rude snob starts posting about "Pepperoni Phalluses" or whatever they call it. The deal with me is, people who want to play fighters should feel like they'e equal contributors to the party; it's no fun if you know that the DM is nerfing encounters just for you personally, and doesn't need to for everyone else. Currently, after 5th level or so, two wizards mow through encounters far better than a wizard and a fighter can ever hope to. In other words, the fighter gets badly overshadowed, which in turn makes people not want to play one more than once.
The same encounter can be impossible for four fighters, difficult for a "properly" mixed party, and trivially easy for four wizards. Eventually the wizard player wonders why he's carrying everyone except the cleric on his back, and the fighter wonders why the others put up with babysitting him all the time. This leads to dissatisfaction and potentially a loss of gamers. Making the fighter relevant at higher levels can only be a good thing, encouraging people who like to play warrior-types to stay in the hobby long-term.
I haven't played many characters beyond 7th level or so, just 2-3 to the 18-20 level range. The last one I played for about 2 years, due to people actually having lives and such. I was playing in a group with the following: Greataxe Paladin, Archer fighter, Chain fighter(me), Mystic theurge, Cleric, Rogue, Sorcerer. It was a large group and we all had our parts to play.
The paladin was our HP/AC TANK. Using the spikedchain I was titled "The Goalie" as I would keep angry mobs off of our support classes(trip/whirlwind build), along with "The Machinegun" our Archer. When the paladin went down in combat, it was my job to step up and take hits until the healers could get him standing again. Our sorcerer was hurling some relatively nice spells, but more often than not he was being shutdown by low DCs... and he had a 20+ CHA using 3.5e. I won't lie, monsters with Invisibility sucked A LOT! Our mystic theurge was "Mr. Fix-it" (with Glitterdust accessories) packing the utility spells, that the sorcerer did not have due to limited spell list, he usually fixed most problems. I don't know if I consider that "carrying" our party though, without the martial classes to kill said offending beastie, what good does it do him to discover/point it out to us.
At one point our cleric decided that she was going to Flamestrike and I (secondary tank) was already beatdown to half and facing off a large black dragon... I believe my statement was as polite as possible.. "Unless you want to tank this dragon, you might want to heal me." My point is, as a fighter, if anyone is "carrying" me I would say it's a healer, whatever class it might be, not an arcane caster.
Long story short, we were in 3.5e and using only the core 3 books with minor feat/spell exceptions from Complete/Compendium, and the party was large, but at no time did anyone feel that they were being "carried" by anyone else, we all had roles to play and fulfill. Sorry if this is a bit long and wordy, but it was an enjoyable group with TONS of team tactic learning opportunities. Again, I haven't played but a few higher levels, I apologize for lack of experience in that realm, but as with everyone else I have a few thoughts and opinions to be shared. :)
EDIT: Quoting wasn't working, had to remove it for sanity's sake. This is in response to Kirth Gersen.
Also note: Paladin, Chain fighter & Rogue all had bows, despite looking silly against the Archer fighter's volleys of pointy doom.
Your experience is unusual, but understandable. A spiked chain trip machine fighter in 3.5 was as maxed out optimized as the class could get -- whereas sorcerers are weak compared to wizards, and ones who cast blasting spells are the weakest of the lot. Mystic theurge is a crippled butterfly: lots of spells, but vastly weaker than a single-classed cleric or wizard of the same character level. So in your particular case, it worked out beautifully: two totally nerfed spellcasters and one perfectly optimized fighter. With 5 sub-optimal characters, you could tackle adventures written for 4, and do OK. And even then, as you pointed out, you weren't playing at levels where the caster/warrior disparity got too large.
Contrast that with the Savage Tide game I ran: the (single-classed) cleric and wizard started off in awe of the barbarian, and feared him. He and the rogue shined at first, but after about the 4th adventure level or so, the wizard and cleric were doing a lot more of the work, the rogue was multiclassing like mad to become a Fochlucan Lyrist, so he was all over the place, and the barbarian made little difference at all.
That sucked. I wanted the barbarian to be relevant. I did what I could to give him and the would-be Lyrist little "set" pieces, so they could feel important. Before too long, it was obvious what I was doing; the players appreciated the effort, but knew something was wrong.
By the 8th adventure, the cleric and wizard could do it all themselves, and the other two were total dead weight. We never did play the last three or four adventures; instead, the campaign dissolved.
I'd like for other people to be able to avoid that.
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Right now, maybe we need to focus on what a fighter could do that's similiar to magical effects for battlefield control.
Intercepting Step (Combat)
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Bull Rush, Mobility
Benefit: You may choose to move up to your normal movement speed as an immediate action in response to an enemy's movement. This movement counts as one of your attacks of opportunity for the round (but does not count against your normal movement), and must place you in a square along the enemy's line of movement (if you cannot reach such a square, you cannot use this feat). This movement forces the moving enemy to stop in the square in front of the one you now occupy. Alternatively, the enemy can attempt to bull rush or overrun you (at +2 to the normal DC) to continue movement, but this provokes an attack of opportunity from you.
This is a good start but I find it a little more powerful than a normal feat. You not only get to move as a free action in place of an AoO but you also get to stop your enemy and make him roll to move. 3 actions for the price of a small one would need to be tweaked a little. Maybe if we divide this into two feats or make one part of it a fighter ability and the other a feat. So the two parts I see as needing seperating are:
1. The movement action.
2. The enemy being stopped.
Now 1 is perfect for a feat. Instead of using a AoO or giving up the next rounds move action(Not sure what would be a good balancing factor against the movement), the player could choose to move.
2 would be great as a feat or it could be a better fighter ability. Now anyone near the fighter would have a harder time moving past the fighter. Now would stopping movement be the goal or how about taking a note out of the Knight's book and make the area he threatens difficult terrain.
Now I'm not saying that these are truly more balanced than Kirth's idea or should replace them. But these are here for some thoughts.
This is a good start but I find it a little more powerful than a normal feat.
You are quite correct, and that was intentional; it's got 4 prerequisite feats, so really anyone but a fighter (e.g., a paladin) who takes this ends up hyper-specialized, with little else they can do. So, in essence, it's a primary focus for paladins or a class feature for fighters, if you look at it that way.
An important way of looking at things is to consider that fighters get 11 bonus feats (their primary class feature) over 20 levels, whereas wizards, clerics, etc. get more than 10 times that number of spells (their primary class feature) over that same spread. The wizard's spells range from 1st level mage armor (better than the Dodge feat right out of the gate) to the 9th level time stop (vastly superior to anything a fighter could ever dream of doing). The fighter's feats need to scale as well -- certainly not as quickly, but by the time he's 10th level he ought to have feats that are maybe equivalent to 3rd level spells (Cf. vampiric touch: if we made a feat that gave an 10th-level fighter a standard-action touch attack for 1d6/2 levels and a healing burst, people would scream bloody murder, but we don't bat an eye when the wizard gets the same ability at 5th level). By the time the fighter is 20th level, I honestly don't feel as if 6th level spell equivalent effects are too far out of line. (One way to try and scale them is to consider what a Fighter 1/sorcerer 6/eldritch knight 10 could do with spells, and see if a fighter 17 can come even vaguely close.)
For the feat in question, it's actually quite a bit less powerful than a 3rd level cleric's hold person spell, but a 3rd level fighter would burn all his resources to get it that soon, and a 3rd level paladin wouldn't have access to it yet at all.
I feel as if we can (and must) make much more powerful feats, but should limit access to them. Two ways of doing this come to mind:
1. Apply a lot of prerequisites (which is what I've done above); or
2. Apply prerequisites that default to "x level fighter" (for example, "Prerequisite: Armor training +3," which means that the "feat" is actually an optional class feature for an 11th level fighter.
Also, having combat feats that scale based on BAB means that only martial characters will get full benefit from them.
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I agree that at higher levels the disparity bewteen caster and fighter becomes far too noticeable. The only thing the fighter has going for him is his extra hit points! The problem is getting the monsters to target the fighter and not the wizard.
I see two problems with melee combatants as a whole and there are simple ways to fix them.
First is the problem of damage output. At low levels the fighter-types do well, but they max out in damage output around level 10ish, where as the casters keep gaining damage dice all the way to 20. To fix this problem and to fix the problem of casters being weak at lower levels (which I think Paizo fixed) every class needs to be able to deal damage dice equal to their hit dice or there abouts (or actually I would like to see damage in the range of 1/2 level instead). This keeps all classes equal in damage and just as useful.
The second problem I see with melee types and specificlly teh fighter, is they have no way to ensure they are the ones being attacked. The Knight class had challenges which were awesome ways to force NPCs to deirct their attacks against the Knight. I mean what is the point of all those Hit Points of no one considers you a threat anymore and no one attacks you anymore?
As an example of that problem when my fighter was near to 20th level, the popular strategy was to hit me with Slow. I can move or attack but not both. So the bad guys just keep out of my range and attack the casters instead. My fighter was a waste of space. At best the cleric or wizard or whatever would counter the Slow, just to have it cast back on me. So I took up resources and time from the casters and could do nothing in return. Sure I could have used my crossbow to hit the demon with a d8 damage, that probably wouldn't get past his DR... Meanwhile the casters are hitting it with 19d6.
As an example of that problem when my fighter was near to 20th level, the popular strategy was to hit me with Slow. I can move or attack but not both. So the bad guys just keep out of my range and attack the casters instead. My fighter was a waste of space.
Indomitable Will
Prerequisite: Bravery class feature.Benefit: The bonus from your bravery class feature applies as a bonus to all Will saves. In addition, once per day, when affected by a spell or effect allowing a Will save which you fail, you can attempt to save again 1 round after the effect occurs. You must accept the new results.
Reasoning: Prevention of "hold person = dead fighter" syndrome. Prereq means it's really a variant class feature more than a feat.
Unfettered Combatant
Prerequisites: Dodge, Mobility, BAB +7, Escape Artist 5 ranks
Benefit: Once per day as a swift action, you gain the benefits of freedom of movement for 1 round per point of your BAB.
Special: You can select this feat multiple times. Each time, you gain an additional use per day.
Reasoning: Prevent uselessness by slow or automatic death by grapple monster with insanely high CMB. You can't get it until 7th level, and it uses an amount of your resources (feats, skill points) far outstripping the spellcaster's freedom of movement spell.
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Unfettered Combatant
Prerequisites: Dodge, Mobility, BAB +7, Escape Artist 5 ranks
Benefit: Once per day as a swift action, you gain the benefits of freedom of movement for 1 round per point of your BAB.
Special: You can select this feat multiple times. Each time, you gain an additional use per day.Reasoning: Prevent uselessness by slow or automatic death by grapple monster with insanely high CMB. You can't get it until 7th level, and it uses an amount of your resources (feats, skill points) far outstripping the spellcaster's freedom of movement spell.
This idea I like because it can be flavored that the fighter uses his strength to break free of the hold. The only thing that I see as a problem is that this feat makes the other will save one useless for the purpose that you created for.
This idea I like because it can be flavored that the fighter uses his strength to break free of the hold. The only thing that I see as a problem is that this feat makes the other will save one useless for the purpose that you created for.
Not really, as Will targetting effects have a huge range of effects, from command, to phantasmal killer.
Indomitable Will
Prerequisite: Bravery class feature.
Benefit: The bonus from your bravery class feature applies as a bonus to all Will saves. In addition, once per day, when affected by a spell or effect allowing a Will save which you fail, you can attempt to save again 1 round after the effect occurs. You must accept the new results.Reasoning: Prevention of "hold person = dead fighter" syndrome. Prereq means it's really a variant class feature more than a feat.
Maybe, just maybe, add Iron Will as a prerequisite. My reasoning is that if you want to focus on Will save defense, you are likely to pick up Iron Will regardless. This might actually also provide a way to work in Mettle into a Fighter build option, outside of PrCs.
The only thing that I see as a problem is that this feat makes the other will save one useless for the purpose that you created for.
Yes, as TreeLynx pointed out, the will save one also protects your friends from the "dominate person or incite riot = party has to waste a turn subduing their own fighter" syndrome, which comes up disturbingly often in our games... There's a bit of overlap, but not too much.
@TreeLynx: Iron Will prereq... hmm... I'd probably allow them to stack, but I'm not sure that one needs another prereq -- definitely not if it supercedes it. Have to think about that one. Maybe if the "mettle" concept could be worked in, it would need another one, in which case that would be a good choice.
@TreeLynx: Iron Will prereq... hmm... I'd probably allow them to stack, but I'm not sure that one needs another prereq -- definitely not if it supercedes it. Have to think about that one. Maybe if the "mettle" concept could be worked in, it would need another one, in which case that would be a good choice.
I don't know, because it seems fairly strong for essentially a second tier feat. Almost a poor man's dispel magic for Will effects, which, granted, is single use, and circumstantial, plus essentially giving the Fighter two good saves in a non-circumstantial way, since Bravery scales about as a good save would. Having it be both seems a bit too much, even though it is class feature limited.
Maybe use Iron Will as the Will Save booster, and use BAB > Class Will Save by 4 or more as a prerequisite. That way, all low Will save classes can get in on the love, and the Fighter has to wait for 5th level to qualify.
I'm really hesitant to go as far as to give the Fighter 2 good saves, especially since the Barbarian and the Paladin don't get them, and especially as a single feat.
I don't know, because it seems fairly strong for essentially a second tier feat. I'm really hesitant to go as far as to give the Fighter 2 good saves, especially since the Barbarian and the Paladin don't get them, and especially as a single feat.
Yes, I see where you're coming from. If the "resave" function remains, it really needs better prereqs. Hmmm, paladins are supposedly getting good will saves down the pipeline, and they already get charm immunity at "x" level, barbarians get +2 (or more) when raging, and rogues can take slippery mind as a talent. So, to retain this as a fighter class feature:
Indomitable Will
Prerequisites: Bravery +2, Iron Will.
Benefit: The bonus from your bravery class feature applies as a bonus to all Will saves. This supercedes (does not stack with) the effects of the Iron Will feat. In addition, once per day, when affected by a spell or effect allowing a Will save which you fail, you can attempt to save again 1 round after the effect occurs. You must accept the new results.
Normal: Bravery applies only against saves vs. fear, and Will saves cannot be rerolled.
RE: Saving throws, "resistance" lets any spellcaster have +1 to all saves all day (cast at will). Why not make a feat that does the same?
Resilience
Your own superior mettle affords you resistance to ill effects.
Prerequisite: BAB +4
Benefit: You receive a +1 resistance bonus to all saving throws.
The Spell Compendium had a couple of 24-hour duration improvements: greater (4th level spell, +3) and superior (6th level spell, +6), IIRC. Now, you could get +3 to all saves by taking Resilience + Iron Will + Great Fortitude + Lightning Reflexes, but the latter 3 are not resistance bonuses; they stack with spells or cloaks. So a resistance-based feat chain seems not unreasonable:
Resilience, Improved
Prerequisites: Resilience, BAB +8
Benefit: The resistance bonus from your resilience feat increases to +2.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time, the resistance bonus to saves increases by +2, to a maximum bonus of +6.
Spellcasters can get massive resistance bonuses by casting 1 spell/day, and can potentially craft 1/2-price cloaks as well. Non-spellcasters are dependent on spellcasters to have saves at par. This feat chain allows a warrior to invest in better saves without needing a wizard or cleric to do it for him.
Just an observation, but at what point does your fighter start to look less like a fighter simply because all of his FEATs are picked to prevent him from being abused by Will Save Effects? Mind you I understand he gets the MOST 'chosen' feats out of any other character class, but Iron Will, Indomitable Will, Resilience, Imp. Resilience... it's an entirely seperate tree from the 5+ that 'already' exist and mind-altering spells (Will Saves) start at first level. (Command, Sleep, etc.) Sleep + Coup De Grace = Bob the fighter & friends 'Take 2'. Woe to the players who have such a sucky DM, but it's totally possible.
The fighter already has to decide where he's going with actual combat-oriented feat trees, to add another seems detrimental to his combat prowess at early levels. (not an order listing, just options)
1. Power Attack/ Overhand Chop tree (combined due to stat/weapon use)
2. Two-weapon/Weapon Finesse tree (combined due to stat/weapon use)
3. Combat Expertise
4. Spring Attack/Whirlwind tree (combined due to stat/weapon use)
5. Others...
I had always considered things like Iron Will & Imp. Initiative feats you take before or after you complete desired feat trees, but perhaps I have more lenient DMs than most out there.
The fact that so many are having problems at higher levels with the fighter immediately being shutdown reminds me of those DMs I hear about that run all the monsters right to the cleric/wizards and beat them down horribly (to death) regardless of said monster's intelligence. Either of these two situations doesn't sound like a game I would continue to play in for 10-20 levels. *shrug* On top of that, there are spells out there that can shutdown casters rather fast also due to lack of Fortitude or Strength.
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I would have to agree with Daniel on this one for the will saves. Iron will covers the low will save pretty well and a Player would rather get the resistence cloak than spend one of their precious feats. But in the same respect, giving the fighter a equivalent of a spell ability could be good as a feat ie. your freedom of movement feat.
Just an observation, but at what point does your fighter start to look less like a fighter simply because all of his FEATs are picked to prevent him from being abused by Will Save Effects?
It's a choice, not a requirement. No one forces you to invest in a particular feat chain just because it exists. But some people might like the option -- why refuse to allow it just because you personally don't choose to invest in it? If your characters would prefer to spend their gold on cloaks, that's their call; if other people have feats that do the same thing, that doesn't suddenly remove the cloak option for you.
I might also mention that, just as there's a fine line between using will save effects judiciously vs. straight-up picking on the fighter --equally, there's also a fine line between the DM who doesn't go overboard with anti-fighter will effects, and one that intentionally goes too easy on the figthter because he knows the poor sucker is gimped.
It's a choice, not a requirement. No one forces you to invest in a particular feat chain just because it exists. But some people might like the option -- why refuse to allow it just because you personally don't choose to invest in it? If your characters would prefer to spend their gold on cloaks, that's their call; if other people have feats that do the same thing, that doesn't suddenly remove the cloak option for you.
Heh, I didn't necessarily mean I was against the option of having them. New feats/skills/classes/races,etc. are always welcome.
I personally have never had the need for the Will save feat(s), but I'm one of those fighters who finds/buys a cloak of resistance, though it's not real high on the shopping list. When I do get one it's only been +2 at best, the rogue usually gets the good cloak for trap finding and lower health.
Warning: this will be a long and involved post. Replies along the lines of 'Too long, didn't read' will be accepted with an understanding chuckle.
The fighter class is entirely inadequate as it stands and needs a complete rewrite. Here are the qualities of the fighter that I think need to be addressed and expressed with class features, not feats:
1) The fighter is hugely dangerous when in control of the battlefield. Anyone entering the battlefield, even a little out of reach of the fighter is in mortal danger, and should be limited in their movement options.
2) The fighter is in full control of his weapons, and can lash out in unexpected directions at times of his choosing, and anyone who thinks he can predict the fighter's combat actions is foolish and destined to feel the business-end of the fighter's weapon.
3) The fighter is a master of attacking while in motion. Anyone who turns his back on the fighter to flee is lucky to make it more than 2 steps before having his head split open.
4) The fighter is acutely aware of his opponent, and is able to predict his actions based on the subtlest of clues.
5) The fighter is master of narrowing his opponent's options. Once engaged by a fighter, you may be able to disengage, but only if you retreat in a direction of his choosing.
The following are the Class Features I propose so that the fighter can actually fulfill the roll he was created for.
Zone of Control:
At first level, any square next to a square the fighter threatens, which does not have cover or concealment from the fighter, is considered difficult terrain for anyone the fighter considers his opponent, and requires double the movement to pass through. If the terrain is already difficult terrain, it requires triple the movement to pass through. If the opponent attempts to cast a spell while in such a square, he must make a spellcraft check or lose the spell. This ability is always considered active, however the fighter may choose to deactivate or activate this ability at any time as a free action, even when it is not his turn.
Always Ready:
At third level, any time a fighter is wielding a melee weapon he has the Weapon Focus feat for or for which he has Weapon Training, he may use one of his attacks of opportunity per round as a ready action instead against any foe he threatens in melee. Unlike normal readied actions, the fighter does not need to announce beforehand what actions trigger the readied action, he may simply announce that he is using it any time someone he threatens in melee does anything that could conceivably trigger a readied action. Even if the fighter has more than one attack of opportunity available to him, he still may only use one of them in this manner.
Mobile Attacker:
At 6th level, once per round,any time an opponent who is threatened by the fighter leaves a threatened square, in addition to taking an attack of opportunity, the fighter may also follow the opponent's exact path at half his normal speed as an immediate action, as long as the fighter has an appropriate movement type (this ability does not grant the fighter a fly speed, burrow speed, swim speed or climb speed if he does not already have one). This movement does not count against the fighter's normal movement for the round. If the fighter has additional attacks of opportunity available, he may make one additional attack of opportunity for each square he moves with his opponent, up to, but not exceeding his total available attacks of opportunity, with each additional attack applying a cumulative -5 attack penalty. If the opponent uses a full withdrawal action, he does not suffer an attack of opportunity for his first 5 feet of movement, as normal. If the opponent attempts to tumble, he must tumble for every square in which the fighter gets an attack of opportunity. If the opponent has the Mobility feat, the fighter does not get any attacks of opportunity, but still may follow his opponent's exact path at half normal movement rate. Extra movement granted by spells or any other temporary abilities do not count toward his normal movement speed for purposes of this ability. Extra movement effects from items or that are permanent do count toward the fighter's normal movement speed for purposes of this ability.
Living Wall:
At 9th level, any time an opponent that the fighter threatens in melee takes any move action that results in actual movement, and is not a five foot step, the fighter can elect to prevent movement in all directions but one. The fighter chooses one five foot square, other than any one he occupies, which is adjacent to his opponent. The opponent may move away normally if he chooses to pass through that five foot square first, however the fighter is still entitled to an attack of opportunity as normal. If the opponent chooses to not pass through the chosen five foot square first, he must make a CMB check against the fighter, as if he were performing an Overrun. The fighter gets a +4 insight bonus to his CMB for this check. The opponent is always aware of which square he can pass through without making a check. The fighter may not use this ability and the Mobile Attacker ability against the same opponent in the same round.
That's what I have so far. Perhaps there should be more at higher levels, perhaps not, but I do feel that the addition of these 4 character features would allow the fighter to be what he is supposed to be: master of the battlefield. In addition, I think some of these abilities would go a long way toward making the dex-based fighter in light armor much more viable, especially the 'mobile attacker' ability.