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I'm writing up a PC with a Taldan background and would love to get some ideas from the Boards. He'll be the 3rd or 4th son in a moderately important noble family, i.e., no real chance of ever becoming head of the family ("None of my dear brothers had the courtesy to die."). That should give him some freedom, but still, what would upbringing be like?
I want to make him a rogue, but he's come to that a little later in life. First he was a ___ ? Would his family have sent him to a military academy and put him in the army/navy? Would they have put him into a wizarding school? The clergy? A trade? I like the idea of him having a level or two in another class (or even two) to represent his wanderings.
I know it will set him back as far as his rogue skills got but I like the role playing possibilities of the guy who can say, "When I was in the Royal Guard..." in one breath and "Back in the Academy du Magique..." in the next. I also want to see how class dipping feels with the elimination of cross-class skills.
Anyway, I'd appreciate any ideas on what you think the education of a Taldan noble might look like. Thanks.
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Hmmmmm. I'd say he would learn:
Fencing, although probably fancy-pants ritualized fencing thats of no use against real fighters (the sort who wouldnt know and eppe from a saber, but do know how to crush the back of your skull with a broken chairleg, knee you in the goulies, and glass you in the face with a broken beer bottle)
Riding
Wig-Powdering
Extremely Stupid Military Tactics, ususaly relating to battle lines, massed charges, and getting most of your soldiers killed.
Famous Crappy Plays and Over-praised Authors, Outdated Philosophy.
Damn near little else, and certainly nothing with any practical use whatsoever.
Sorry, but I enjoy poking fun at aristocratic tropes. In a more favorable light, I suppose that a high-class taldan education would be very heavy on the arts, literacy, history, philosophy and aesthetics, but, once more, almost nothing practical or useful. Genuinely good fencing abilities would be likely.
From a crunch perspective, you might want to multi-class rogue/fighter, or puck up the Swashbuckler class instead, if your DM allows. For a more varied backstory, as you said, a handful of cleric levels might actualy be a valid idea- Cayden Cailean might work well, or one of the more straight-laced ones, like Abadar, depending on character Alignment.
I'd go with the fencing too - especially from the perspective of having just competed [perhaps he's a fencing champion?] but has never faced off against an opponent where his life depended on it...
As a 3rd/4th son he'd also be free of most of the family/house responsibilities so his formative years may have been spent with specific tutors - arts, history, etiquette etc, and without responsiblity he's probably been happy to fritter away his allowance on wine, woman & song [and his obligatory "hangers on"]
One of these episodes may have gone too far and he's been "disowned" and has to make his way in the world - but what's a spoiled, drunken noble braggard to do?
Adventure? Join the church of Cayden Cailean? Both?
His former hangers on could be pretty bitter about their free lunch failing them [might turn up as NPC foes fallen on harder times]
As a footnote to this - I once played a "deposed nobleman" in our old Greyhawk campaign who would distainfully take a pinch of snuff before addressing any NPC's or other characters. Was just a little "tick" that I gave him, but really allowed the character to come across during sessions and the group loved [and hated] him for it.
In traditional fiction, First son was heir. Second son went to military. Third son to Church. Fourth son was spare, and may have been used as marrige bait (for alliances).
In terms of your character- early class could have been Bard- very general training and fits with Rogue for later. If 'bardic performance' doesn't seem to fit, perhaps your instrument of choice is large and unweildy or non-musical? Ball-room dancing as a perform would be an intriging role-play bit.
In terms of role play- 2nd edition had the brown books. In 'Complete Fighter's Handbook', we had the 'Noble Warrior'. He started with more gold than standard, but always had to spend more on goods and services (to get the best). He also had to swear an oath of loyalty to some greater noble. He recieved bonus profencies in Etiquette, Heraldry, and Riding.
Hope this helps.
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I assumed a Victorian British public school education for my posh Taldan character.
He got caught up in adventures on the Grand Tour.
superficial training in ancient history, nobility and the arts (ancient Taldane, literature, etc.) plus hours spent running into other boys on a muddy field to get fit and build character (rugby).
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Hmmmmm. I'd say he would learn:
Fencing, although probably fancy-pants ritualized fencing thats of no use against real fighters (the sort who wouldnt know and eppe from a saber, but do know how to crush the back of your skull with a broken chairleg, knee you in the goulies, and glass you in the face with a broken beer bottle)
Riding
Wig-Powdering
Extremely Stupid Military Tactics, ususaly relating to battle lines, massed charges, and getting most of your soldiers killed.
Famous Crappy Plays and Over-praised Authors, Outdated Philosophy.
Damn near little else, and certainly nothing with any practical use whatsoever.
Sorry, but I enjoy poking fun at aristocratic tropes. In a more favorable light, I suppose that a high-class taldan education would be very heavy on the arts, literacy, history, philosophy and aesthetics, but, once more, almost nothing practical or useful. Genuinely good fencing abilities would be likely.
From a crunch perspective, you might want to multi-class rogue/fighter, or puck up the Swashbuckler class instead, if your DM allows. For a more varied backstory, as you said, a handful of cleric levels might actualy be a valid idea- Cayden Cailean might work well, or one of the more straight-laced ones, like Abadar, depending on character Alignment.
I did the write-up for Taldor in the Campaign Setting, and I agree with Jodah (at least the positive stuff that I bolded). :)
Regarding backstory, I wrote a sidebar to go with the Taldorian Duelist feat that was unfortunately cut during editing. In it, I talked about so-called "noblemen's clubs" which are really aristocratic gangs that fight running battle with each other through the streets. (They actually had gangs similar to these in the Renaissance-era Republic of Venice, which you can do more research on, if you like.) Sounds like just the thing that a low-on-the-totem-pole noble scion would do to pass the time, IMO.
Dueling is definitely taken seriously in Taldor. But if you're not an heir going into politics, most of the rest of your skills would probably be pretty useless.
There are also some famous bardic colleges in Taldor, and a level or two in bard could give you an arts education, while the bardic knowledge ability could represent all the dabblings of a dilettante. And the skills would complement the rogue skills as well.
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I did the write-up for Taldor in the Campaign Setting, and I agree with Jodah (at least the positive stuff that I bolded). :)
Regarding backstory, I wrote a sidebar to go with the Taldorian Duelist feat that was unfortunately cut during editing. In it, I talked about so-called "noblemen's clubs" which are really aristocratic gangs that fight running battle with each other through the streets. (They actually had gangs similar to these in the Renaissance-era Republic of Venice, which you can do more research on, if you like.) Sounds like just the thing that a low-on-the-totem-pole noble scion would do to pass the time, IMO.
Dueling is definitely taken seriously in Taldor. But if you're not...
Wow. Thats actually kind of cool. I suppose its too easy to write off the Taldans as wig-powdering poofters. Must stop doing that.
Do they jump greasers in their spare time?
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Wow. Thats actually kind of cool. I suppose its too easy to write off the Taldans as wig-powdering poofters. Must stop doing that.
Do they jump greasers in their spare time?
Well, you're Chelaxian - we expect such uninformed stereotypes from provincials like yourself. ;)
And I'm sure they jump almost anybody who seems like an easy mark (or a fun lark) at the time...
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I just want to add that IMO a third or fourth son would be encouraged to be a no good layabout, and their education would specifically exclude military training (except personal fencing combat) or anything else that might encourage a younger son to be 'overambitious.' Ambition in younger sons among nobles leads to dead older brothers.
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I just want to add that IMO a third or fourth son would be encouraged to be a no good layabout, and their education would specifically exclude military training (except personal fencing combat) or anything else that might encourage a younger son to be 'overambitious.' Ambition in younger sons among nobles leads to dead older brothers.
Military service by the idle rich is a pretty good idea, campaign-wise, I think. It avoids the indignity of becoming involved in the seedy business of trade, it takes the potentially covetous distant heir out of the vicinity of the court and other areas for the potential creation of trouble, it's moderately to very dangerous and it has the chance to increase the honour of the family.
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I'm writing up a PC with a Taldan background and would love to get some ideas from the Boards. He'll be the 3rd or 4th son in a moderately important noble family, i.e., no real chance of ever becoming head of the family ("None of my dear brothers had the courtesy to die."). That should give him some freedom, but still, what would upbringing be like?
Hello friend,
For a modest fee, and some spare useless equipement of no consequence, I am willing to entertain your new PC and act as his preceptor.
You have to tell me more about him, of course. And his family. Does he value them, like ... a lot ? because, it seems he has ... issues with them, no ?
How generous are you feeling ? I am sure that for the right compensation, we could arrange ... social events for them.
Would you not appreciate that ?
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Contributor
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I just want to add that IMO a third or fourth son would be encouraged to be a no good layabout, and their education would specifically exclude military training (except personal fencing combat) or anything else that might encourage a younger son to be 'overambitious.' Ambition in younger sons among nobles leads to dead older brothers.Military service by the idle rich is a pretty good idea, campaign-wise, I think. It avoids the indignity of becoming involved in the seedy business of trade, it takes the potentially covetous distant heir out of the vicinity of the court and other areas for the potential creation of trouble, it's moderately to very dangerous and it has the chance to increase the honour of the family.
If you have a handy war to send them off to, I whole-heartedly agree! I'd view that as an equally viable scenario. As long as you discourage or inhibit the younger son from wanting to take the position of the older son.
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I'd never thought about the bard angle before (I've never played a bard, actually), but that would seem to fit with Taldor. Wasn't there a description somewhere of Taldoran Bardic colleges, or am I just making that up?
How would they work anyway? Harry Potter style with 1 year = 1 level, or would you graduate and be level 1? I'm thinking my guy would have started but not finished.
On dueling, I'm thinking the Taldoran Duelist feat with the falcata and buckler might be fun. Not sure if it's worth 3 feats though. Not much info on the falcata, not even 100% sure what it looks like. Curves in rather that out, right? Heavy on top to chop? It's not a light weapon so not much chance that you can finesse it. Still, bards can cast spells while using a buckler (I think). Would such a thing combine well with Expert Dualist from the Guide to the Pathfinder Society? Hmmm.
As pointed out above, duelling would be popular (and can be fatal).I'd go with the fencing too - especially from the perspective of having just competed [perhaps he's a fencing champion?] but has never faced off against an opponent where his life depended on it...
Point taken :)
Regarding backstory, I wrote a sidebar to go with the Taldorian Duelist feat that was unfortunately cut during editing. In it, I talked about so-called "noblemen's clubs" which are really aristocratic gangs that fight running battle with each other through the streets. (They actually had gangs similar to these in the Renaissance-era Republic of Venice, which you can do more research on, if you like.)
Dueling is definitely taken seriously in Taldor.
Man Rob - first perytons now the Taldorian Duelist feat - don't those editors realise its gold they're chopping out?!?
Is the feat likely to end up in the Taldor Pathfinder Companion?
Cheers
BD
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On dueling, I'm thinking the Taldoran Duelist feat with the falcata and buckler might be fun. Not sure if it's worth 3 feats though. ... Would such a thing combine well with Expert Dualist from the Guide to the Pathfinder Society?
I'm still fiddling with this (I'm not much of a min/max'er so bear with me and feel free to check my work)...
Taldan Duelist has Exotic Weapon Prof (falcata) and Weapon Specialization (falcata) as pre reqs. Plus, Taldan Duelist, that's three feats. I get one for human and one for 1st level. Maybe I start with the two weapon feats and pick up Taldan Duelist at 3rd. OR - given that a Dwarf gets to take "Dwarven" weapons as martial rather than exotic - wouldn't make sense for me to get a Taldan weapon as martial rather than exotic? In which case I could take the falcata as my free human martial weapon instead of needing a feat and get Taldan Duelist at 1st! It would pull together all my little bonuses nicely and fit better with the idea that this stuff was backstory. Finally, I can pick up Expert Dualist free as a Taldan faction feat. Cool, 4 for the price of 2. Now I just need to add them together and see what it would look like...
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Contributor
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HERE is a picture of a falcata, for reference.
Any modification to the proficiency rules is of course up to your DM, but if it were me, I would not give this one away free, because its crit values are pretty much unheard of.
Setting-wise, I think it would make sense, but it's a much better weapon IMO than the dwarven waraxe.
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you have a handy war to send them off to, I whole-heartedly agree! I'd view that as an equally viable scenario. As long as you discourage or inhibit the younger son from wanting to take the position of the older son.
I fear that any population with a surplus of idle young men, particularly ones that believe themselves superior to the rest of the world, will not go long without the odd war.
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Wrong mindset. We don't "believe" that we are superior to the rest of the world. We are.
Actually, the important thing is belief, I think. People that were merely superior to everyone else but didn't believe it, why, they might as well not be superior at all.
Of course, that's somewhat of a hypothetical. Anyone as superior as the noble classes of Taldor would inevitably realise it as part and parcel of what defined that superiority.
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Actually, the important thing is belief, I think. People that were merely superior to everyone else but didn't believe it, why, they might as well not be superior at all.Of course, that's somewhat of a hypothetical. Anyone as superior as the noble classes of Taldor would inevitably realise it as part and parcel of what defined that superiority.
I don't know if they would realize it or not - it probably wouldn't even enter their minds that it might be any different.
Do we think about why we breathe? No. Why would a Taldor noble think about we he is superior?
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HEREis a picture of a falcata, for reference.
Any modification to the proficiency rules is of course up to your DM, but if it were me, I would not give this one away free, because its crit values are pretty much unheard of.
Setting-wise, I think it would make sense, but it's a much better weapon IMO than the dwarven waraxe.
Thanks for the pic. I found a similar (though not as shinny) one on wiki.
Okay, so no free falcata. If it's worth it, I'll have to wait 'til 3rd.
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More thoughts on my Taldan ...
Even if I had 3 feats to burn at 1st level to Exotic Weapon (falcata), Weapon Focus (falcata), Taldorian Dualist, I couldn't do it as a 1st level bard because you can't take any of those feats w/o a +1 BAB. I could take a level of fighter to represent his young rake days, then a few of bard as his family tries to make him something, then go rogue after that. I have also been wondering, though, if the Taldorian Dualist feat is worth it. At first I was attracted to it because it is THE Taldorian feat presented int he Campaign Guide, but what do I get for it? I'd pick up a great crit weapon and +1 attacks on the way, but then only +1 AC and +2 Acrobatics (Balance/Tumble), which I would use to avoid AoOs. Cool, but is that worth 3 feats? And fulcata aren't finessible so I wouldn't be able to benefit from my high Dex. I'll have to see if there are any other feat combos that would grant me similar benefits with just a rapier or something.
On a side note, most non-human races seem to have a racially-preferred exotic weapon that, for them, is merely martial. That makes it a lot easier for non-fighters to take them and creates some racial flavor. What about having culturally-preferred exotic weapons that are merely martial for humans with those cultural affinities (and maybe non-humans who identify more with that culture than their race)? Humans already have 1 free martial weapon proficiency, why not let them bump it to an exotic weapon if it's culturally appropriate?
Also, humans get a free martial weapon proficiency, but so do fighters, so human fighters lose out. Maybe in the case of a human fighter, the free martial weapon proficiency should get upgraded to a free exotic weapon proficiency. That would also lend itself to the stereotype of humans as being drawn to the strange and diverse.
If you consider going the route of a Noble who was trained somewhat in the arts of war to help meet some of those prereqs for the Taldoran Duelist feat I would suggest the 'War-College Training' alternate class feature for Fighters. You give up your 1st level Fighter bonus feat for 4+ skill points per level and get access to some additional skills.
Granted that means giving up one of those feat slots that might help you take the Duelist feat, but the skills make up for it.
It might make a good deal of sense that the character started off by being sent to a Taldoran Military College and then upon graduating (level 1) decided instead to persue a more 'cultured' profession. That of a gentleman. A gentleman is expected to be able to properly act in high society and usually have some kind of talent that shows he is a man of the world. In this way, Bard is a really good choice to multiclass into. It gives all the other skills you might want as well as abilities that go well with the idea of military training.
Make your perform skill 'Oratory' and you have a decent commander-type who can use Inspire Competence by giving a rousing speech or shouting commands.
If you are planning on going back towards a more combat oriented character, the Warchanter PrC from Complete Warrior is a good one to add at mid-levels. Provided you have a GM that is allowing the use of such books with PF Beta.
Just a few thoughts.
Personally, as a GM I agree with you on the Human bonus proficiency. I use Weapon Groups though, so its easier to adjudicate. Humans just get an extra one of choice. Anyone who is not familiar with weapon groups, check the SRD website or take a look at the 'Groups' that Fighers get their Weapon Training ability with in the Beta, this follows the same groups almost exactly.
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Wow. I kind of lost track of this thread, and look where it's gone!
Some responses:
Man Rob - first perytons now the Taldorian Duelist feat - don't those editors realise its gold they're chopping out?!?
Is the feat likely to end up in the Taldor Pathfinder Companion?
Thanks. :)
Unfortunately, I'm not doing any work on the Taldor Companion, so I can't say what will be in it or not. But if it's already in the Campaign Setting, does it need to be reprinted in the Companion?Also, I should say that while I did do the write-up for Taldor in the Campaign Setting, most of what we know about Taldor was already written (by Erik Mona, I believe) in the Gazeteer - I just expanded on a few things and added a few more.
I'd never thought about the bard angle before (I've never played a bard, actually), but that would seem to fit with Taldor. Wasn't there a description somewhere of Taldoran Bardic colleges, or am I just making that up?
How would they work anyway? Harry Potter style with 1 year = 1 level, or would you graduate and be level 1? I'm thinking my guy would have started but not finished.
There are indeed bardic colleges in Taldor, the Kitharodian Academy and Rhapsodic College (Kitharodes play the kithara, while rhapsodes perform epic poetry). I had mainly envisioned them as being background, but your idea of 1 year = 1 level sounds good too, and ties the character more to his surroundings.
More thoughts on my Taldan ...
Even if I had 3 feats to burn at 1st level to Exotic Weapon (falcata), Weapon Focus (falcata), Taldorian Dualist, I couldn't do it as a 1st level bard because you can't take any of those feats w/o a +1 BAB. I could take a level of fighter to represent his young rake days, then a few of bard as his family tries to make him something, then go rogue after that. I have also been wondering, though, if the Taldorian Dualist feat is worth it. At first I was attracted to it because it is THE Taldorian feat presented int he Campaign Guide, but what do I get for it? I'd pick up a great crit weapon and +1 attacks on the way, but then only +1 AC and +2 Acrobatics (Balance/Tumble), which I would use to avoid AoOs. Cool, but is that worth 3 feats? And fulcata aren't finessible so I wouldn't be able to benefit from my high Dex. I'll have to see if there are any other feat combos that would grant me similar benefits with just a rapier or something.
On a side note, most non-human races seem to have a racially-preferred exotic weapon that, for them, is merely martial. That makes it a lot easier for non-fighters to take them and creates some racial flavor. What about having culturally-preferred exotic weapons that are merely martial for humans with those cultural affinities (and maybe non-humans who identify more with that culture than their race)? Humans already have 1 free martial weapon proficiency, why not let them bump it to an exotic weapon if it's culturally appropriate?
Also, humans get a free martial weapon proficiency, but so do fighters, so human fighters lose out. Maybe in the case of a human fighter, the free martial weapon proficiency should get upgraded to a free exotic weapon proficiency. That would also lend itself to the stereotype of humans as being drawn to the strange and diverse.
Keeping in mind that what is published is what is official, I originally wrote the falcata as a martial weapon, although, in hindsight, it probably should be exotic as Craig says (and as the editors at Paizo clearly thought too), and so the feat had fewer pre-reqs, just Dex 13, shield proficiency, and weapon focus (falcata). On the other hand, I believe the human weapon proficiency should be applicable to cultural weapons, so I would have no problem giving the falcata as a bonus weapon proficiency to a Taldorian character. But of course, that's up to your DM to decide.
In any case, I made my Pathfinder Society character as a duelist bard, with the plan to eventually take the Taldorian Duelist feat, but as she's a half-elf (for the bardy bonuses), it's going to take her a bit longer to get all the pre-reqs.
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While dueling usually does involve finesse, what makes the falcata an effective weapon is that it mixes the keen edge of a sword with the power of an axe. This to me means that there's lots of heavy chopping involved in using the falcata. So probably, the traditional Taldan fencing style is more "brutish," as you said.
In short, I don't think the falcata would be a "finessable" weapon.