Just ran a short playtest and our party cleric was very very very miffed.
Defensive casting posed a major issue for us, the half-orc cleric realized early on that in order to even have a chance to cast spells in combat he would need to sink all 5 skill points into spellcraft to overcome his -2 int penalty. This was juxtaposed to the frail elf wizard who had no trouble casting defensively with minimal spellcraft ranks by virtue of his high int. That just isn't right.
Basing defensive casting off Spelcraft(Int) seriously hinders clerics, particularly if they have poor int as they have a negative modifier and not enough ranks to do anything else.
Our Solution: Cease to make Defensive casting a spellcraft check. Make it a CMB check instead vs DC 15 + CMB of threatening opponents (a free action as part of spellcasting). If you succeed at the maneuver no attacks of opportunity by enemies are possible, otherwise they get attacks of opportunity as usual. This removes a nasty skill burden from low int clerics and generally make's front line Paladins and Clerics better at defensive casting than their frail back-rank wizard counterparts by virtue of generally higher strength and BAB. It also factors in the size and skill of threatening opponents.
By extention, to cast a spell when grappled you would need to pass a CMB check.
Perhaps a discussion that should be saved for when we broach skills or combat but as it seriously affects defensive casting for all three listed classes I felt it bears mentioning at this stage.
Thoughts?
Just ran a short playtest and our party cleric was very very very miffed.
Defensive casting posed a major issue for us, the half-orc cleric realized early on that in order to even have a chance to cast spells in combat he would need to sink all 5 skill points into spellcraft to overcome his -2 int penalty. This was juxtaposed to the frail elf wizard who had no trouble casting defensively with minimal spellcraft ranks by virtue of his high int. That just isn't right.
Basing defensive casting off Spelcraft(Int) seriously hinders clerics, particularly if they have poor int as they have a negative modifier and not enough ranks to do anything else.
Our Solution: Cease to make Defensive casting a spellcraft check. Make it a CMB check instead vs DC 15 + CMB of threatening opponents (a free action as part of spellcasting). If you succeed at the maneuver no attacks of opportunity by enemies are possible, otherwise they get attacks of opportunity as usual. This removes a nasty skill burden from low int clerics and generally make's front line Paladins and Clerics better at defensive casting than their frail back-rank wizard counterparts by virtue of generally higher strength and BAB. It also factors in the size and skill of threatening opponents.
By extention, to cast a spell when grappled you would need to pass a CMB check.Perhaps a discussion that should be saved for when we broach skills or combat but as it seriously affects defensive casting for all three listed classes I felt it bears mentioning at this stage.
Thoughts?
Actually I expect the frail elf to be better at defensive casting than the half orc, because frailty is not the issue. Casting defensively means dividing your attention: not giving 100% mental focus, but pulling off the spell as if you had. That requires the mental skill to make complex casting feel like second nature, a hard feat for the half orc who has trouble remembering the spell under the best of circumstances. If the half orc in question were a wizard instead of a cleric, the need for extra practice would make perfect sense. One can imagine the half orc furrowing his brow and complaining, "Cut it out, guys! I'm trying to concentrate!"
However, I can see the half orc being better able to shrug off damage while casting than the elf, not because the half orc is better at concentrating, but because physical damage causes him less interference. Still, defensive casting is not a matter of toughness. It is meant to avoid attacks of opportunity, at the risk of losing your spell if you fail a (DC 15 + spell level) spellcraft check.
I think the elf vs. half orc aspect of this gives the player no cause to be miffed, but I do sympathize with the cleric vs. wizard side of the complaint. Since cleric spellcasting is based on wisdom instead of intelligence, it seems strange that the spellcraft check for clerics is not also influenced by wisdom rather than intelligence. It doesn't seem right to me that cleric spells depend on concentration the same way that wizard spells do, since cleric spells are divinely bestowed, not a matter of arcane study. It also makes less gaming sense. Presumably, the wizard is in the back row because her more powerful spells are easier to disrupt.
The problem might be solved by saying that some divine spells are not subject to attacks of opportunity. Maybe domain spells, or spells with short casting time, or designated "combat" spells. This lets the cleric function on the front line while leaving him vulnerable when chanting in the back row.
Even if we modify some divine spells, the problem should still be there for Bards and Sorcerers (who cast Arcane spells, but their best score is Charisma).
Either we leave the skill as is (allowing Wizards the "better edge" on defensive casting), or we make an exception in Spellcraft checks made for defensive casting to use the caster's ability score he uses for his spells (Intelligence for Wizards - the default - , Charisma for Sorcerers-Bards-Paladins, and Wisdom for Clerics-Druids-Rangers). A solution similar to the Epic Spellcasting (Epic spells require a Spellcraft check to be casted, but as an optional rule it is possible to use the caster's spellcasting key ability instead of Intelligence).
And don't forget that Combat Casting is always useful for a caster in the middle of the battle...
Why not get rid of defensive casting altogether? It would add a bit of excitement to things...
Why not just make Spellcraft a skill whose relevant attribute is Int, Or your primary casting stat, whichever is higher?
It would create a new rule (i.e. a rule without precedent) but it would solve the problem for all casters.
-S
Why not get rid of defensive casting altogether? It would add a bit of excitement to things...
Assuming you wanted to do that, it would only solve part of the problem, since Spellcraft is also the skill needed to avoid losing a spell when something interferes with your concentration.
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Even if we modify some divine spells, the problem should still be there for Bards and Sorcerers (who cast Arcane spells, but their best score is Charisma).
Either we leave the skill as is (allowing Wizards the "better edge" on defensive casting), or we make an exception in Spellcraft checks made for defensive casting to use the caster's ability score he uses for his spells (Intelligence for Wizards - the default - , Charisma for Sorcerers-Bards-Paladins, and Wisdom for Clerics-Druids-Rangers). A solution similar to the Epic Spellcasting (Epic spells require a Spellcraft check to be casted, but as an optional rule it is possible to use the caster's spellcasting key ability instead of Intelligence).
And don't forget that Combat Casting is always useful for a caster in the middle of the battle...
I really like the idea of casting defensively being based off of the caster's ability score that he uses for his spells. That way every casting class gets a fair shake at pulling it off.
Why not get rid of defensive casting altogether? It would add a bit of excitement to things...Assuming you wanted to do that, it would only solve part of the problem, since Spellcraft is also the skill needed to avoid losing a spell when something interferes with your concentration.
Good point; we'll need to get rid of that, too!
This is an interesting approach. It definitely favors melee casters like Paladins and Rangers.
I'm not sure defensive casting should favor melee casters. It seems to me that casting any spell that requires mental focus with anything less than your full attention ought to require more practice in the craft of spellcasting. A melee caster should not be able to cast the same spell by the same method more easily than a non-melee caster who is more devoted to spellcasting. If it makes sense for melee casters to avoid attacks of opportunity when casting (I think it does), then let them do so by choosing spells that require less mental focus during casting, or give them a different method of casting. Of course, a method that is less risky should also be less powerful (or else cost more).
As part of an answer to the OP's complaint, I like the idea of making domain spells exempt from attacks of opportunity, since it makes the domain choice for clerics more interesting.
Why not just make Spellcraft a skill whose relevant attribute is Int, Or your primary casting stat, whichever is higher?
It would create a new rule (i.e. a rule without precedent) but it would solve the problem for all casters.
-S
This is not without precedent, it's an optional rule in the ELH. We've been playing using this rule for about 4 years now and it works fine. And it does stop problems like the one the OP described.
Peace,
tfad