This thread is intended on focusing discussions toward the Combat Style class feature of the Ranger class. The goal is compile the ideas and suggestions people in this community have presented. I will begin the thread by revealing my ideas for this class feature.
I believe the Ranger class needs to be unique in its own right. Currently it shares similar concepts with the Druid, Rogue, and Fighter classes. I would like to present an overhaul of the Combat Style class feature. I think that the Ranger class would be better served if this class feature was setup more like the Rogue Talent class feature of the Rogue class.
First, let's define these abilities as Techniques which are broken into 2 categories for now, Archery and Two-Weapon Fighting. New techniques would be gained every even level (2, 4, 6...) for a total of 10 techniques at level 20. These techniques would enhance existing feats, add additional feats, or add entirely new abilities specific to the Ranger.
I am going to briefly present some examples of what I am talking about below.
Combat Style Techniques: Archery
Crossbow/Bow Mastery (Ex) – The Ranger gains +1 to attack and damage rolls per every 4 Ranger levels with a specific type of crossbow/bow. This technique may only be selected once.
Arrow Eclipse (Su)
Action: Full Round Attack Action made with a bow
Range: 60Ft.
Area: 30Ft. Burst
Saving Throw: Reflex partial
Description:
The Ranger fills the sky with arrows raining death upon all targets in a targeted area. All targets must make a DC 10 + ½ Ranger Level + Dexterity Modifier or take 1d6 per every 2 Ranger levels in damage.
Pin Cushion (Ex) – When a Ranger is using the Many Shot feat all attacks fire 2 arrows but suffer a -2 penalty.
Headshot (Ex) – When a Ranger confirms a Critical Hit against an opponent ¼ of the total damage is counted as temporary constitution damage instead of hit point damage. This effect only applies to the first Critical Hit confirmed in each round.
Sniper Shot – When an opponent is denied their Dexterity bonus, the Ranger may add her Dexterity modifier to the damage of the first attack in the round.
Combat Style Techniques: Two-Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Fighting Mastery (Ex) – When a Ranger is wielding two weapons reduce the penalty for doing so by an additional 2.
Parry (Ex) – When wielding two weapons and engaged in melee with an opponent the Ranger may elect not to make an off-hand attack. In doing so, the Ranger can make the opponent reroll one attack with a -2 penalty.
Whirling Blades (Ex) – The Ranger takes a Standard Action and makes an attack roll against every adjacent opponent. No bonus damage is applied to any opponents hit in this way.
Riposte (Ex) – When an opponent’s melee attack misses the Ranger she may take an Immediate Action and attack that opponent at her full bonus.
Improved Riposte (Ex) – Requires the Riposte technique. The Ranger may Riposte a number time equal to her Dexterity modifier each round.
While I do like the ideal,I do not think it will happen. As it stands combat styles are a set of bounes feats and this rework would add many pages to the already large book. Also it is a big change.
I think they will stay feats, but I do like the ideal of talents.
While I do like the ideal,I do not think it will happen. As it stands combat styles are a set of bounes feats and this rework would add many pages to the already large book. Also it is a big change.
I think they will stay feats, but I do like the ideal of talents.
Well I hope they at least review what I am trying to do here. I mean is it better to save some pages while not improving a class that needs it or add few pages and give Rangers something more usable than an incomplete list of bonus feats?
I guess the designers at Paizo are the only ones capable of answering this question.
I can't say your wrong. How ever the ranger as stands is pretty nice
I can't say your wrong. How ever the ranger as stands is pretty nice
First, I'd like to say thank you to folks who provided feedback to this post.
However, what I find funny though is one of the community members suggested I create this "Think Tank" post to gather up feedback. I frankly was expecting a bit more than what I have seen.
Is the issue that no one really has any interest in Rangers except for a few people. Perhaps everyone is playing Barbarins to check out the new rage system. I am not sure what's holding up the discussions but I hope it picks up soon.
I think timing is what is holding it back for now. Two many folks having words over the paladin[ many wanting to make him on par with a druid it seems] and the druid.[wanting him brought down, or pushed back up]...sigh
The ranger didn't get much attention really as most find it well balanced and a good all round class I think. Bump this every once in a while is all I can tell ya.
I like the idea of the riposte, even as a feat - thematically, though, I think it should be limited to weapons that you can use weapon finesse with.
A key concern as the PF Beta book stands for Rangers is the fact that certain feats from their roster were removed without being identically removed from the class' lists, leaving the poor Ranger in a bit of a pickle.
At levels 2, 6, 10, 14 and 18 a Ranger gets to select from a list of combat feats pertinent to their chosen primary combat style: either archery or two-weapons.
Given how I have an Archery Ranger in my playtest campaign, that will be eyeballed first.
LEVEL 2: Careful Targeting , Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot. Due to removal of the first, 2nd level's list is only Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Rapid Shot.
LEVEL 6: Exact Targeting and Many Shot are added to this list.
LEVEL 11: Pinpoint Targeting and Shot on the Run are added to this list.
I would instead suggest revamping the list as follows:
LEVEL 2: Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot & Quick Draw are available.
LEVEL 6: Many Shot & Shot on the Run are available.
LEVEL 14: Improved Precise Shot and Vital Strike are available.
LEVEL 18: Pinpoint Targeting and Improved Vital Strike are available.
I do not agree with the suggestions that Rangers are the 'type' to tote around crossbows per se, so I would discard Rangers being crossbow "archers". Leave that stuff to the Fighters and dwarves and pansier classes than those...
I admit that the Ranger by 'flavor' should be something 'more' than the comparatively 'vanilla' feats. That does open up the potential to have a progressively improving 'fixed' combat style (as suggested by the OP) for either archery or two-weapons fighting. HOWEVER, Rangers get a lot of goodies. More on this later...
TWO WEAPON FIGHTING STYLE
LEVEL 2: Deft Shield , Double Slice, Two-Weapon Defense and Two-Weapon Fighting are available.
LEVEL 6: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Weapon Swap are added.
LEVEL 11: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Rend are added.
REVAMPED TWO-WEAPON STYLE LIST
LEVEL 2: Double Slice, Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense and Weapon Finesse are available.
LEVEL 6: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Weapon Swap are available.
LEVEL 14: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Rend are available.
LEVEL 18: Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike are now available.
I'm thinking of looking at what feats that are available and creating a third option: Zweihander. And by this the ranger focuses on weapons that require both hands like greatswords, great clubs, most polearms, etc. I'll definitely be throwing in feats from the Power Attack tree for this but what else I may need I'll have to really look at what's available.
I would let Rangers get just bonus combat feats at the appropriate levels. Since there is no real benefit from the style other than what you get from the feats to begin with.
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I'm thinking of looking at what feats that are available and creating a third option: Zweihander. And by this the ranger focuses on weapons that require both hands like greatswords, great clubs, most polearms, etc. I'll definitely be throwing in feats from the Power Attack tree for this but what else I may need I'll have to really look at what's available.
This is a great idea. I always wondered why this option was omited from
the original rules. Instead of the standard ranger archtypes (archer/precision) I always envisioned the mountain man/lumberjack ranger with
a great axe. Lokk foward to more on this one.
OK, I have the combat style more or less figured out. For consideration I now present the Zweihander or Two Handed Weapon style. This works for those who want use their rangers fighting ability to reflect lumberjacks, mountain men and any one who wants their character to be known for using larger weapons like Great Swords, Great Axes, Great Clubs and most pole arms.
Choices at 2nd Level: Improved Initiative, Overhand Chop, Power Attack, Quick Draw
At 6th Level add the following to the list: Back Swing and Cleave
Finally at 11th Level add the following to the list: Devastating Blow and Great Cleave
New techniques would be gained every even level (2, 4, 6...) for a total of 10 techniques at level 20. These techniques would enhance existing feats, add additional feats, or add entirely new abilities specific to the Ranger.
...
Crossbow/Bow Mastery (Ex) – The Ranger gains +1 to attack and damage rolls per every 4 Ranger levels with a specific type of crossbow/bow. This technique may only be selected once.
...
Headshot (Ex) – When a Ranger confirms a Critical Hit against an opponent ¼ of the total damage is counted as temporary constitution damage instead of hit point damage. This effect only applies to the first Critical Hit confirmed in each round.
Most of your suggestions are fine in and of themselves, but I have some issues with the above specifically, and an overall problem with your suggestion.
First off, the bow mastery thing is too much. This is a higher bonus than what the Fighter gets, who is arguably supposed to be better at pure weapon training.
Second, the headshot mechanic is clunky and ultimately unnecessary. Having to figure out 25% of your damage, and then subtract it from the damage done, and then apply it towards a stat that ALSO affects hitpoints indirectly, is a convoluted way to say "you pretty much kill the guy".
If the intention is to just do Con damage, why go away from the standard method of a flat bonus? It's easier to track, apply, and can be scaled to the level, rather than scaled to the damage roll.
If the intention is to simply potentially kill someone in a single hit, then make it a Fort save or die mechanic. Which might be a bit powerful for something keyed to an unlimited use. Rangers already get an endcap of instakill, so this side of it might be unneeded.
...
Lastly, I dislike the idea of pumping up the ranger's combat styles to the point that they are better than the Fighter in literally fighting. It's bad enough that other classes can be "more powerful" or "stronger" in combat than the Fighter... but to have a combat class that specifically is capable of doing more, and more damage than the Fighter in the very things he's doing (using weapons), it's just odd design.
Plus, 10 techniques? That are more powerful than normal feats? Isn't that going overboard? The class already gets spells, favored enemy/terrain and quarry bonuses, not to mention 6 skillpoints per level and tracking/stealth bonuses up the wazoo.
And what is it about Ranger training that allows him to Parry while the Fighter never gets to? What about Headshots? What about the Ranger's training in nature, hunting and tracking, and druidic spellcasting, that helps with learning stuff about weapons that the Fighter doesn't?
If anything, the Fighter should be learning to Parry and make Headshots, and the Ranger should be able to pick those up if he happens to focus what little time he has outside of the rest of his nature/tracking stuff towards combat.
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No, Ranger combat styles should be a package series of feats that he can choose from that suit a particular style, so he's not burning too many character feats on being a combat class.
Coming up with new feats that anyone can do, and then adding them to, or creating new, Ranger styles would be fine.
A Fighter shouldn't envy the Ranger for what he can do with a weapon. Weapon techniques are something the Fighter should be best at, since that's all he's got.
OK, I have the combat style more or less figured out. For consideration I now present the Zweihander or Two Handed Weapon style. This works for those who want use their rangers fighting ability to reflect lumberjacks, mountain men and any one who wants their character to be known for using larger weapons like Great Swords, Great Axes, Great Clubs and most pole arms.
Choices at 2nd Level: Improved Initiative, Overhand Chop, Power Attack, Quick Draw
At 6th Level add the following to the list: Back Swing and Cleave
Finally at 11th Level add the following to the list: Devastating Blow and Great Cleave
Improved Initiative and Quickdraw seem like "quick, nimble" combat style, not "chopping, big weapon" style.
Quickdraw I could see I guess, so someone wanting to get into throwing axes would be able to. Improved Initiative just seems like a filler feat though.
Maybe replace it with Intimidating Prowess. They have the Intimidate skill, they get bonuses to Intimidate through Favored Enemy. Having a twohander ranger boosting strength allowed to add in their Str on intimidate checks would be more fitting.
Here's a few ideas for combat style feats.
(By the way, I think it should be 2nd, 6th and 10th levels, not 11th, for the reason listed in the other thread).
Archery (fixed):
Fixed the feats so they match up the new Beta options. This was suggested in the other thread.
2nd: Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
6th: Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot
10th: Pinpoint Targeting, Shot on the Run
Two Weapon Style (fixed):
Fixed the feats so they match up to the new Beta options.
2nd: Double Slice, Quickdraw, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting
6th: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Swap*
10th: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Rend
*If Weapon Swap is taken out and not replaced with anything else, then I'd move Double Slice to 6th, and put Weapon Finesse in 2nd.
Mounted Style:
A set of feats oriented towards Mounted combat. Charging being a major aspect, I added Overrun bonuses. Lunge giving extra reach (so you can fight with a sword well even from horseback, etc).
2nd: Improved Overrun, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Ride-by Attack
6th: Greater Overrun, Trample
10th: Spirited Charge, Lunge
Tooth and Nail:
A style focused on "desperate fighting", using anything as a weapon and lashing out unexpectedly.
2nd: Blind-Fight, Improved Unarmed Strike, Quickdraw, Throw Anything
6th: Caught Off-Guard, Spring Attack
10th: Razor Sharp Chair Leg, Whirlwind Attack
First off, the bow mastery thing is too much. This is a higher bonus than what the Fighter gets, who is arguably supposed to be better at pure weapon training.
Let's explore your comment above.
First, Fighters are are well trained combatants with experience in various weapons, techniques, and fighting styles. However, they are not specialist at any one form of fighting. Rangers have the abiltiy to ba a specialist in ranged combat and excel in it. It's the difference between a commando and a sniper. Sure a commando can be a good sniper. They won't however be as good as a trained sniper though.
Second, the headshot mechanic is clunky and ultimately unnecessary. Having to figure out 25% of your damage, and then subtract it from the damage done, and then apply it towards a stat that ALSO affects hitpoints indirectly, is a convoluted way to say "you pretty much kill the guy".
There are many situations which exist that use similiar mechanics such as Evasion. I don't really see where doing some simple math is all that complex and clunky.
In addition, you didn't seem to understand the mechanics of the Headshot talent. You take 25% of the total damage and apply it as Con damage. There is no additonal damage being applied for the critical in that round. I have illustarted an example below.
Total Critical Damage = 20
Headshot Talent Calculation - 20 x 0.25 = 5
Total Con Damage = 5
That doesn't seem very complex to me but maybe some folks may see it that way.
Kaisoku: I really like your mounted combat style. What if the ranger also got better animal companion benefits, so he could ride his faithful steed into battle? That may seem like a paladin ability, but I like the idea of a halfling riding a dire bat swooping down from the sky to poke holes in his enemies. It also opens up the door to dwarven rangers riding rhinos, and elves mounted on great cats. What if, instead of 1/2 ranger level for the animal companion, it was ranger level -3? That way, a 7th level druid could have a bison as a mount, a 10th level ranger could have a rhino, a 13th level ranger could ride a megaraptor, a 16th level ranger could ride a dire bear, and a 19th level ranger could have a t-rex.
I was going to use this concept (a ranger who rode her animal companion and dual-wielded lances), but I did the math and learned that her mount would have ~45 hp at 10th level. For a frontline combatant, that's suicide, particularly with an AC of 16.
And to the person who said that rangers don't use crossbows: Yes they do. I ended up making a dwarven crossbow archer who crushed any human that came across his path.
No offense, but I don't like headshot. It would be good as a fixed number, like duelists have, but the math for adjusting hp based on the reduction in con is a DM's nightmare. Plus, at high levels, that becomes very broken. Using a +2 flaming collision (+5 dam, +2 ability) +4 str composite longbow, you get: 3d8+1d6+33 plus favored enemy bonuses. Taking average rolls, that's 50 damage, which comes out to 13 points of con damage. Thats 6XHD damage, which is half the hp of most creatures. Maybe if it was like vorpal, where it only activates on a natural 20, because RAW you can get a light crossbow, rapid reload, rapidshot, and improved crit and have 5 chances per round to make a 17-20 crit and more or less insta-kill anything out there.