Thats why I think you underrate your spell buffs. You were playing with a monty haul DM.I was playing with a monty haul DM because we had a +2 Strength item at 7th level? You got me. Damn him and his power-mongering!
Robert
Yeah, if he let you pick through the book and decide what items you were going to get "issued" to your character. Sorry, but that is a little lame. A +2 item at 7th wasnt uncommon, but generally wasnt a stat effector.
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Also lost in the shuffle of "my paladin's spellcasting sucks" is the fact that they can use spell-completion/spell-trigger devices. A paladin can pick up a wand of cure light/mod/ser wounds or lesser restoration/neutralize poison (or could take Craft Wand and make it himself if he really wanted) and cure up the party after fights. A fighter can't. Heck, with the abolition of cross-class skills, paladins can be good at UMD and use wizard wands and such if they want to.
A paladin already can do lots of things a fighter can't. The problem is that they are also supposed to be fighter-types, and that's where depression sets in; if you don't value the things they CAN do then of course you only see the stuff they CAN'T do. Still, given that they are primarily build as fighting types, their non-fighting abilities are not at present good enough to counteract their relative incompletence :) at fighting COMPARED TO the other fighting classes.
Now, all of the above stated, Robert's proposal is that paladins should be comparably good fighting EVIL that fighters are at fighting ANYTHING. The counter-point that MOST of what D&D characters fight is evil is also an apt one. I think there needs to be some meeting in the middle there, and an ability usable only a few times a day would have to be pretty frickin boss to level the scales, and even then... well, it ain't easy.
Hence the testy conversations across all of these boards. Maybe it's just me, but it looks like we have a more convo around the paladin than we do around the cleric and druid combined. Just an impression, could be wrong.
Thanks Jason. Dont forget that the paladin does only get 2 skill points, and likley INT will be the dump stat by process of elimination - most likely even an 8. Regardless, UMD is an option - should the paladin not wish to use his mount optimally with Ride skill, or Heal skill to help his party, or diplomacy and/or sense motive to help be the voice (read: charismatic leader) of the party; or anything remotely role-playing oriented blike diplomacy sense motive, or knowledge nobility.
As for the middle ground you referred to - that is exactly where I am at, now. Even those who are against the "divine might" like ideas to grant a bonus where needed still admits that there is a noticeable difference in effectiveness in combat. It is now a given and understood that more smites isn't going to happen, thus my frustration when the same suggestions continue to be belabored that would 'fix' it....cuz it wont.
Where is the middle ground. To many of such persons who agree theres a disparity but disagree with a omnipresent bonus vs evil, I've asked for other suggestions and their ideas that DO NOT include "more damage with smites" and have gotten nothing fruitful.
If +7 at 20th level is too high - what about +5? How about +1 at first level and +1 at every 5 levels of paladin instead (+2 at 5th, +3 at 10th). Is it just +7 is too much for them? or is any + just not idealistic and should have something else.
If so.....what? Wheres the middle ground? Wheres do we make up SOME of the difference? Smite only shines a few rounds a day - where is the rest of the capability going to come from?
As for the comment about the discussions on paladin being more than the cleric and druid combined....thats because the latter two are already far better and more powerful than the former. Their main discussions is about things being too powerful....
Hey, in 3.5 Living Greyhawk and RPGA, the cleric was THE most popular played class. Thats a fact. (followed second by the rogue).
The paladin was the least. Druid was 4th. CODzilla was a coined phrase about the cleric and druid due to their propensity for getting out of control powerful. Thats why everyone played them in league play. It was the most bang for the buck so-to-speak.
Robert
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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3. It doesn't stack with Gauntlets of Ogre Power - which a 7th level Fighter is sure to have a +2 Str enhancing item - maybe even the paladin too; thus the spell isn't getting its full effect under most circumstances.Whatever, dude. I never got any gauntlets of ogre power issued to my fighters. And I couldnt stroll into a "magic store" and buy none, either. I did have plenty of plustas on my weapons. But not nearly as many on my stats. Thats why I think you underrate your spell buffs. You were playing with a monty haul DM.
Or, more likely, he was playing in a party where ONE of the party's spellcasters took the Craft Wondrous Item feat (which they can do at 3rd level) and made his own stat-boosting items for party members - whether for a profit or at cost depends on the group.
Also, gauntlets of ogre power cost HALF of what a +2 weapon costs. A +4 Strength item costs less than a +3 weapon. In terms of the value of gear, if you had "plenty of plustas" on your weapons then actually you were the one with a monty haul DM.
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Or, more likely, he was playing in a party where ONE of the party's spellcasters took the Craft Wondrous Item feat (which they can do at 3rd level) and made his own stat-boosting items for party members - whether for a profit or at cost depends on the group.
Also, gauntlets of ogre power cost HALF of what a +2 weapon costs. A +4 Strength item costs less than a +3 weapon. In terms of the value of gear, if you had "plenty of plustas" on your weapons then actually you were the one with a monty haul DM.
....my hero!
:-)
Robert
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Yeah, if he let you pick through the book and decide what items you were going to get "issued" to your character. Sorry, but that is a little lame. A +2 item at 7th wasnt uncommon, but generally wasnt a stat effector.Thats why I think you underrate your spell buffs. You were playing with a monty haul DM.I was playing with a monty haul DM because we had a +2 Strength item at 7th level? You got me. Damn him and his power-mongering!
Robert
With the exception of a cloak of resistance, every other +2 item in the game is more expensive/valuable than a +2 stat item. A +2 ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, amulet of mighty fists, magic weapons, even magic armor and shields (cuz you gotta add on the cost for the masterwork item) - ALL of those cost more than a +2 stat item.
As an additional note, no items is "issued" to you. You BUY them. Or you MAKE them. Or you HIRE someone else to make them. Or, heaven forbid for the old-schoolers among us, you FIND them, often taken from NPCs you defeat and who were using said gear.
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Yeah, if he let you pick through the book and decide what items you were going to get "issued" to your character. Sorry, but that is a little lame. A +2 item at 7th wasnt uncommon, but generally wasnt a stat effector.Thats why I think you underrate your spell buffs. You were playing with a monty haul DM.I was playing with a monty haul DM because we had a +2 Strength item at 7th level? You got me. Damn him and his power-mongering!
Robert
With the exception of a cloak of resistance, every other +2 item in the game is more expensive/valuable than a +2 stat item. A +2 ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, amulet of mighty fists, magic weapons, even magic armor and shields (cuz you gotta add on the cost for the masterwork item) - ALL of those cost more than a +2 stat item.
As an additional note, no items is "issued" to you. You BUY them. Or you MAKE them. Or you HIRE someone else to make them. Or, heaven forbid for the old-schoolers among us, you FIND them, often taken from NPCs you defeat and who were using said gear.
Jason - you don't happen to live near the bay area of California do you? You sound like a perfect fit for our groups! :-)
Robert
Yeah, if he let you pick through the book and decide what items you were going to get "issued" to your character. Sorry, but that is a little lame. A +2 item at 7th wasnt uncommon, but generally wasnt a stat effector.Thats why I think you underrate your spell buffs. You were playing with a monty haul DM.I was playing with a monty haul DM because we had a +2 Strength item at 7th level? You got me. Damn him and his power-mongering!
Robert
Have you played 3.5e at all? "Craft Wondrous Item" feat? Any PC party that isn't stupid has someone take this at level 3 and then 2000 gold gets you Gauntlets of Ogre Power (half price when crafted).
It's fine to play lower-magic or lower-gold campaigns, but 3e/3.5e clearly spells out defaults; look at the default NPC tables in the DMG. Or Table 5-1, Character Wealth By Level. A level 7 character is expected to have around 17,000 gp.
The rules have to be crafted around certain default assumptions of character wealth and magic access. I'd be happy for wealth to be lower and magic to be more restricted, but if it's not and goes along 3.5e standard, then it's bad design to overlook that in the other parts of the system.
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Have you played 3.5e at all? "Craft Wondrous Item" feat? Any PC party that isn't stupid has someone take this at level 3 and then 2000 gold gets you Gauntlets of Ogre Power (half price when crafted).
It's fine to play lower-magic or lower-gold campaigns, but 3e/3.5e clearly spells out defaults; look at the default NPC tables in the DMG. Or Table 5-1, Character Wealth By Level. A level 7 character is expected to have around 17,000 gp.
The rules have to be crafted around certain default assumptions of character wealth and magic access. I'd be happy for wealth to be lower and magic to be more restricted, but if it's not and goes along 3.5e standard, then it's bad design to overlook that in the other parts of the system.
No, no, no.....you guys have this all wrong.....I have a monty haul DM! Stop arguing with facts! You'll just convolute the whole discussion.
Robert
3. It doesn't stack with Gauntlets of Ogre Power - which a 7th level Fighter is sure to have a +2 Str enhancing item - maybe even the paladin too; thus the spell isn't getting its full effect under most circumstances.Whatever, dude. I never got any gauntlets of ogre power issued to my fighters. And I couldnt stroll into a "magic store" and buy none, either. I did have plenty of plustas on my weapons. But not nearly as many on my stats. Thats why I think you underrate your spell buffs. You were playing with a monty haul DM.Or, more likely, he was playing in a party where ONE of the party's spellcasters took the Craft Wondrous Item feat (which they can do at 3rd level) and made his own stat-boosting items for party members - whether for a profit or at cost depends on the group.
Also, gauntlets of ogre power cost HALF of what a +2 weapon costs. A +4 Strength item costs less than a +3 weapon. In terms of the value of gear, if you had "plenty of plustas" on your weapons then actually you were the one with a monty haul DM.
Naw. Look at any of the modules out for PF or 3.5. They got all kinds of Longswods +1s or 3s laying around the place. Hardly anybody dropped gauntlets of ogre power. Unless your DM was letting them cash in the magic items they didnt like for other ones. Some guys do.
Yeah, if he let you pick through the book and decide what items you were going to get "issued" to your character. Sorry, but that is a little lame. A +2 item at 7th wasnt uncommon, but generally wasnt a stat effector.Thats why I think you underrate your spell buffs. You were playing with a monty haul DM.I was playing with a monty haul DM because we had a +2 Strength item at 7th level? You got me. Damn him and his power-mongering!
Robert
With the exception of a cloak of resistance, every other +2 item in the game is more expensive/valuable than a +2 stat item. A +2 ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, amulet of mighty fists, magic weapons, even magic armor and shields (cuz you gotta add on the cost for the masterwork item) - ALL of those cost more than a +2 stat item.
As an additional note, no items is "issued" to you. You BUY them. Or you MAKE them. Or you HIRE someone else to make them. Or, heaven forbid for the old-schoolers among us, you FIND them, often taken from NPCs you defeat and who were using said gear.
You cant buy them. There isnt any stores for magic items.
And besides making your own items, there is the big question of WHY you would make a stat enhancing item when even the "sucky" caster classes can give them to you for free. No XP cost. No thousands of GP. Spend them on actual plustas that will stack with your free spells. Geeze.So you take your feat, spend your XP and GP to make an item that does what your spells do. Spells that you might as well cast anyway , because they dont roll over to the next day.
I had credited some people with more INT then that.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Naw. Look at any of the modules out for PF or 3.5. They got all kinds of Longswods +1s or 3s laying around the place. Hardly anybody dropped gauntlets of ogre power. Unless your DM was letting them cash in the magic items they didnt like for other ones. Some guys do.3. It doesn't stack with Gauntlets of Ogre Power - which a 7th level Fighter is sure to have a +2 Str enhancing item - maybe even the paladin too; thus the spell isn't getting its full effect under most circumstances.Whatever, dude. I never got any gauntlets of ogre power issued to my fighters. And I couldnt stroll into a "magic store" and buy none, either. I did have plenty of plustas on my weapons. But not nearly as many on my stats. Thats why I think you underrate your spell buffs. You were playing with a monty haul DM.Or, more likely, he was playing in a party where ONE of the party's spellcasters took the Craft Wondrous Item feat (which they can do at 3rd level) and made his own stat-boosting items for party members - whether for a profit or at cost depends on the group.
Also, gauntlets of ogre power cost HALF of what a +2 weapon costs. A +4 Strength item costs less than a +3 weapon. In terms of the value of gear, if you had "plenty of plustas" on your weapons then actually you were the one with a monty haul DM.
+1 weapons, sure, lots of those.
If they got "all kinds of Longswods +3s," then your DM is a monty haul.
I should also point out, of course, that the DMG states rather explicitly that DMs should let PCs cash in the magic items they didnt like for other ones. Hence the inclusion of gold piece value for items and the stipulation that items can be sold for half price, and the wealth limits stipulated for communities of varying sizes, indicating the limits on what kinds of items can be bought and sold there.
I probably shouldn't bother pointing out again that the PCs can make their own.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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You cant buy them. There isnt any stores for magic items.Yeah, if he let you pick through the book and decide what items you were going to get "issued" to your character. Sorry, but that is a little lame. A +2 item at 7th wasnt uncommon, but generally wasnt a stat effector.Thats why I think you underrate your spell buffs. You were playing with a monty haul DM.I was playing with a monty haul DM because we had a +2 Strength item at 7th level? You got me. Damn him and his power-mongering!
Robert
With the exception of a cloak of resistance, every other +2 item in the game is more expensive/valuable than a +2 stat item. A +2 ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, amulet of mighty fists, magic weapons, even magic armor and shields (cuz you gotta add on the cost for the masterwork item) - ALL of those cost more than a +2 stat item.
As an additional note, no items is "issued" to you. You BUY them. Or you MAKE them. Or you HIRE someone else to make them. Or, heaven forbid for the old-schoolers among us, you FIND them, often taken from NPCs you defeat and who were using said gear.
Duly noted for your campaign. You have thereby addressed one of the four above-mentioned methods of acquiring magic items.
Unless your campaign is entirely lacking spellcasters above 3rd level, the other avenues remain open.
The rules assume there are such stores. They also assume the PC's can spend their wealth as they see fit.
They also assume the PC's have access to magic creation feats.
Your DM may limit any or all of these- but then we are in the realm of house rules and can't really have a meanginful discussion on balance as a result.
The fact is- a +2 stat booster is well within the price range of a 7th level character under the WBL guidelines. It is therefore safe to assume, when talking about characters of 7th level (or higher) that a character has at least one such item. Otherwise the discussion devolves from "everyone has access to this" to "some do, some don't, so it's nigh on impossible to figure out how to balance it".
It is also, incidentally, why we have point buy. Alot of people still roll dice for ability scores. I myself prefer it. From a discussion standpoint though we can't really discuss "random". We have to discuss a set of variables that everyone can achieve in order to have a meaningful conversation about how to balance the classes.
Your DM may not allow you to create or purchase a +2 stat booster item at or before level 7. That is between you and your DM.
We NEED a common ground for the purposes of discussion. This includes 1) using point buy, even if you prefer- or your DM allows you some variation of rolling for attributes and 2)WBL, given relatively free reign under the rules to buy what you can given the rules that are presented for it.
If we, as forum posters, don't have those two things then we have a serious problem because we'll have NO common base from which to adequately discuss character balance.
-S
Naw. Look at any of the modules out for PF or 3.5. They got all kinds of Longswods +1s or 3s laying around the place. Hardly anybody dropped gauntlets of ogre power. Unless your DM was letting them cash in the magic items they didnt like for other ones. Some guys do.3. It doesn't stack with Gauntlets of Ogre Power - which a 7th level Fighter is sure to have a +2 Str enhancing item - maybe even the paladin too; thus the spell isn't getting its full effect under most circumstances.Whatever, dude. I never got any gauntlets of ogre power issued to my fighters. And I couldnt stroll into a "magic store" and buy none, either. I did have plenty of plustas on my weapons. But not nearly as many on my stats. Thats why I think you underrate your spell buffs. You were playing with a monty haul DM.Or, more likely, he was playing in a party where ONE of the party's spellcasters took the Craft Wondrous Item feat (which they can do at 3rd level) and made his own stat-boosting items for party members - whether for a profit or at cost depends on the group.
Also, gauntlets of ogre power cost HALF of what a +2 weapon costs. A +4 Strength item costs less than a +3 weapon. In terms of the value of gear, if you had "plenty of plustas" on your weapons then actually you were the one with a monty haul DM.
+1 weapons, sure, lots of those.
If they got "all kinds of Longswods +3s," then your DM is a monty haul.
I should also point out, of course, that the DMG states rather explicitly that DMs should let PCs cash in the magic items they didnt like for other ones. Hence the inclusion of gold piece value for items and the stipulation that items can be sold for half price, and the wealth limits stipulated for communities of varying sizes, indicating the limits on what kinds of items can be bought and sold there.
I probably shouldn't bother pointing out again that the PCs can make their own.
And besides making your own items, there is the big question of WHY you would make a stat enhancing item when even the "sucky" caster classes can give them to you for free. No XP cost. No thousands of GP. Spend them on actual plustas that will stack with your free spells. Geeze.
So you take your feat, spend your XP and GP to make an item that does what your spells do. Spells that you might as well cast anyway , because they dont roll over to the next day.I had credited some people with more INT then that.
And I dont write the modules. But I know what they drop. If the written adventures are monty haul then thats your perspective. Not mine.
The fact is- a +2 stat booster is well within the price range of a 7th level character under the WBL guidelines. It is therefore safe to assume, when talking about characters of 7th level (or higher) that a character has at least one such item. Otherwise the discussion devolves from "everyone has access to this" to "some do, some don't, so it's nigh on impossible to figure out how to balance it".
Yeah, all kinds of +2 items that stack with spells that they KNOW they have available. Why in the world would you trade an item in, buy it, commision it, or steal it, when you got a team mate who doesnt do anything but BUFF and melee. And what spells can they buff with? Not a whole lot, unless you count the stat boosters. Aw, but you already went and spent (in gold and blood) to get an item that doesnt stack with that.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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And besides making your own items, there is the big question of WHY you would make a stat enhancing item when even the "sucky" caster classes can give them to you for free. No XP cost. No thousands of GP. Spend them on actual plustas that will stack with your free spells. Geeze.
Umm, how can you "spend them on actual plustas" if magic items cannot be bought? Isn't that what you said earlier?
So you take your feat, spend your XP and GP to make an item that does what your spells do. Spells that you might as well cast anyway , because they dont roll over to the next day.
Umm, maybe cuz your spells only last a few minutes and you have better things to do with your time than buff your party mates before every battle (like, say, using those spell slots to zap the bad guys), or have your spells get dispelled and have to replace them.
Really, though, this was a big issue in 3.0, when stat-boosting spells lasted an hour per level. Few people bothered to find/get/buy/make stat-boosting items because it was far more economical to just cast your spells to raise stats. In 3.5, those spells last a minute per level, so rarely more than a handful of encounters at best. If that's as long as you spend adventuring each day, then you are right. Cast the spells, forget the items. If your adventuring day lasts more than a few minutes, the magic items start to look a lot more attractive.
I had credited some people with more INT then that.
Oh, the irony.
And I dont write the modules. But I know what they drop. If the written adventures are monty haul then thats your perspective. Not mine.
I thought you were the judge of monty haul-ness, based on people getting "issued" incredibly valuable stuff.
But, if it is my perspective, then it seems your DM has "issued" you these high-value magic items that are worth (according to the rules) far more than the stat-boosting items being talked about. Whether he wrote the adventure or he is using someone else's writing, he has still "issued" the items to you in the form of treasure. He has chosen not to modify the written adventure to get rid of the excessive treasure found in it, which is what qualifies him for monty haul status. In that sense, my perspective is irrelevant; by the rules it is a demonstable fact.
And besides making your own items, there is the big question of WHY you would make a stat enhancing item when even the "sucky" caster classes can give them to you for free. No XP cost. No thousands of GP. Spend them on actual plustas that will stack with your free spells. Geeze.Umm, how can you "spend them on actual plustas" if magic items cannot be bought? Isn't that what you said earlier?
You brought up buying them. I just want to know why you'd buy one that is unstackable with even the most basic buffs.
So you take your feat, spend your XP and GP to make an item that does what your spells do. Spells that you might as well cast anyway , because they dont roll over to the next day.Umm, maybe cuz your spells only last a few minutes and you have better things to do with your time than buff your party mates before every battle (like, say, using those spell slots to zap the bad guys), or have your spells get dispelled and have to replace them.
First, go ahead and dispell them. That means I get another round to try and clobber the caster because he didnt do the wise thing and cast Curse, Confusion, Disintegrate, or any of the other spells that could really jack up my day.
Second, what 2nd level spell is the paladin going to "zap" anybody with? Zone of Truth? C'mon ...
And I dont write the modules. But I know what they drop. If the written adventures are monty haul then thats your perspective. Not mine.I thought you were the judge of monty haul-ness, based on people getting "issued" incredibly valuable stuff.
But, if it is my perspective, then it seems your DM has "issued" you these high-value magic items that are worth (according to the rules) far more than the stat-boosting items being talked...
Sure. But you know as well as I do that you can flip open any module and find somebody in there that drops a +1 or higher (depending on module level) weapon. But not nearly as many drop gauntlets of ogre power.
And your going ot have me believe that there are players out there who would take these enchanted weapons and trade them for something that is less valuable and doesnt stack with most buffs.Sure.
Having gotten a crit in my last game that stunned the BBEG for a single round. I know that stunning is an excellent gift, the enemy drops whatever he is carrying, and can take no actions. As such I think that smite needs a fort save or the enemy is stunned for 1d4 rounds. Something along the lines of DC 10 + cha mod +1/2 level. Now don't get me wrong, it needs more than that, but I think I like the idea of a smite whomping the guy and he is so taken back by the blow that he is unable to move.This fits in with my comment on making Smite at current number of uses worthwhile requiring 'save or die'. Save or be neutralized in some way is the only thing that makes the current infrequency of smites justified. My only critique of this is "WHY only 1/2 Level?" Make it DC 10 + CHA mod + Paladin Level. (Abiding by the 1/2 caster level limit is not a holy vow that they take.)
That's like a DC 20+ or die save there at level 10.
Dont you think thats a little high? What if I used Eagle Splendor. I could have a DC 23 at level 7 (with 18 CHA).I like the overall idea though.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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First, go ahead and dispell them.So you take your feat, spend your XP and GP to make an item that does what your spells do. Spells that you might as well cast anyway , because they dont roll over to the next day.Umm, maybe cuz your spells only last a few minutes and you have better things to do with your time than buff your party mates before every battle (like, say, using those spell slots to zap the bad guys), or have your spells get dispelled and have to replace them.
Okay. I did. Now your spell is no longer better than the fighter's feats, which did not get dispelled. Or the wearer of a stat-boosting item, which did not get dispelled.
That means I get another round to try and clobber the caster because he didnt do the wise thing and cast Curse, Confusion, Disintegrate, or any of the other spells that could really jack up my day.
It is strange to me that you see this point of delay in your enemy but not in yourself.
You seem to be forgetting that you already did the same thing, wasting a round casting bull's strength instead of "doing the wise thing" and something else in combat "that could really jack up your enemy's day." when you could have been trying to clobber the enemy.
I'm sure they are perfectly happy to see you waste a round's worth of combat sitting there and casting your widdle spell.
Combat in D&D is about economy of actions. Wearing an item that is always on means you don't have to waste precious rounds getting ready for each fight, or limited resources on one particular fight.
Second, what 2nd level spell is the paladin going to "zap" anybody with? Zone of Truth? C'mon ...
Yknow, for some reason when you were talking about buffing, I assumed you meant a class that had some substantial buffing ability like a cleric, druid, wizard, which of course have lots of 2nd level alternatives. But, since we're talking about a paladin's spells...
A paladin's 2nd level spell slots are probably better spent on a condition removal spell like remove paralysis or delay poison or a defensive spell like resist energy or shield other that actually has a decent duration, rather than a short-duration buff spell that will probably not last more than 1 or maybe 2 combats (4 minutes... good luck with that) and that does not stack with the most basic stat-boosting items.
A paladin's better option, rather than wasting a round casting a buff, would be spent on actually FIGHTING.
By the way, your 7th level paladin doesn't even GET 2nd level spells. At 8th level, with a 12+ Wisdom, you get ONE. That means you can Bull's Strength up for ONE battle. Maybe two.
Vs. buying a stat item when you can go all day long.
Again, if you only fight one battle a day, then you are at least partly right, as long as you are willing to sacrifice the first round of your combat casting a spell instead of actually fighting.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Sure. But you know as well as I do that you can flip open any module and find somebody in there that drops a +1 or higher (depending on module level) weapon. But not nearly as many drop gauntlets of ogre power.
And I dont write the modules. But I know what they drop. If the written adventures are monty haul then thats your perspective. Not mine.I thought you were the judge of monty haul-ness, based on people getting "issued" incredibly valuable stuff.
But, if it is my perspective, then it seems your DM has "issued" you these high-value magic items that are worth (according to the rules) far more than the stat-boosting items being talked...
I agree that there are metric tons of +1 weapons out there in adventures. As for weapons higher than that vs. gauntlets or other stat-boosting items (inclding gloves of dex, belts of strength, periapts of wisdom, etc.), virtually every mid to high-level NPC I see in published modules has at least one if not several of these items. I guess we're flipping open different adventures.
And your going ot have me believe that there are players out there who would take these enchanted weapons and trade them for something that is less valuable and doesnt stack with most buffs.
Sure.
1. "most buffs" = wrong. Doesn't stack with the 6 basic stat enhancement bonus spells. Stacks just fine with every other kind of buffing spell out there.
2. You have it backwards. Once characters get to a level where, due to standard wealth by level, item creation feats, and your own admitted ability to buy and sell magic in the game world, it is trivially easy to acquire all-day-long stat-boosting items, "your going ot have me believe that there are players out there who would" bother preparing and casting bull's strength and similar spells before every battle? Sure.
First, go ahead and dispell them.So you take your feat, spend your XP and GP to make an item that does what your spells do. Spells that you might as well cast anyway , because they dont roll over to the next day.Umm, maybe cuz your spells only last a few minutes and you have better things to do with your time than buff your party mates before every battle (like, say, using those spell slots to zap the bad guys), or have your spells get dispelled and have to replace them.
Okay. I did. Now your spell is no longer better than the fighter's feats, which did not get dispelled. Or the wearer of a stat-boosting item, which did not get dispelled.
That means I get another round to try and clobber the caster because he didnt do the wise thing and cast Curse, Confusion, Disintegrate, or any of the other spells that could really jack up my day.It is strange to me that you see this point of delay in your enemy but not in yourself.
You seem to be forgetting that you already did the same thing, wasting a round casting bull's strength instead of "doing the wise thing" and something else in combat "that could really jack up your enemy's day." when you could have been trying to clobber the enemy.
I'm sure they are perfectly happy to see you waste a round's worth of combat sitting there and casting your widdle spell.
Combat in D&D is about economy of actions. Wearing an item that is always on means you don't have to waste precious rounds getting ready for each fight, or limited resources on one particular fight.
Second, what 2nd level spell is the paladin going to "zap" anybody with? Zone of Truth? C'mon ...Yknow, for some reason when you were talking about buffing, I assumed you meant a class that had some substantial buffing ability like a cleric, druid, wizard, which of course have lots of 2nd level alternatives. But,...
So you've never buffed up BEFORE a battle. Nope. Never seen a fight coming. We just kept getting ambushed all the way to level 20 there. never had the drop on anyone. Nope.
And I did say it was a paladin that had at least a +2 WIS, so it would be at 7th level they can use Bull Strength. At 8th they could use it twice.And the buff aspect of a paladin was how we came to this page of the discussion. I'm not talking about buffs from a third class. (however, I did assume a wide range of oppoents' classes in several examples.)
Sure. But you know as well as I do that you can flip open any module and find somebody in there that drops a +1 or higher (depending on module level) weapon. But not nearly as many drop gauntlets of ogre power.
And I dont write the modules. But I know what they drop. If the written adventures are monty haul then thats your perspective. Not mine.I thought you were the judge of monty haul-ness, based on people getting "issued" incredibly valuable stuff.
But, if it is my perspective, then it seems your DM has "issued" you these high-value magic items that are worth (according to the rules) far more than the stat-boosting items being talked...
I agree that there are metric tons of +1 weapons out there in adventures. As for weapons higher than that vs. gauntlets or other stat-boosting items (inclding gloves of dex, belts of strength, periapts of wisdom, etc.), virtually every mid to high-level NPC I see in published modules has at least one if not several of these items. I guess we're flipping open different adventures.
And your going ot have me believe that there are players out there who would take these enchanted weapons and trade them for something that is less valuable and doesnt stack with most buffs.
Sure.1. "most buffs" = wrong. Doesn't stack with the 6 basic stat enhancement bonus spells. Stacks just fine with every other kind of buffing spell out there.
2. You have it backwards. Once characters get to a level where, due to standard wealth by level, item creation feats, and your own admitted ability to buy and sell magic in the game world, it is trivially easy to acquire all-day-long stat-boosting items, "your going ot have me believe that there are players out there who would" bother preparing and casting bull's strength and similar spells before every battle? Sure.
So these high level NPCs just didnt have weapons then? Monks?
I guess we were. Because I cant remember looting too many of them items all last few campaigns, and we didnt let many NPCs get away with living so if they were there I'm pretty sure we'd have spotted them.Well, I guess I'm just the anomoly. I figured most divine casters carried around a few stats boosters and didnt make the effort of trading out my weapon worth it. (they do actually)
The only spell I seem to recall them casting during a battle was out of a wand and it was a heal type. Still was pretty handy.
You can go all day and not get a chance to cast resist energy. That one is best kept in a bottle. You rarely have a day go by that you couldnt use a stat boost.
I know what would help out the paladin. Put haste on their spell list.
Like first level. ; )
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Having gotten a crit in my last game that stunned the BBEG for a single round. I know that stunning is an excellent gift, the enemy drops whatever he is carrying, and can take no actions. As such I think that smite needs a fort save or the enemy is stunned for 1d4 rounds. Something along the lines of DC 10 + cha mod +1/2 level. Now don't get me wrong, it needs more than that, but I think I like the idea of a smite whomping the guy and he is so taken back by the blow that he is unable to move.This fits in with my comment on making Smite at current number of uses worthwhile requiring 'save or die'. Save or be neutralized in some way is the only thing that makes the current infrequency of smites justified. My only critique of this is "WHY only 1/2 Level?" Make it DC 10 + CHA mod + Paladin Level. (Abiding by the 1/2 caster level limit is not a holy vow that they take.)
Charlie Rock already answered but I'll chime in. Mostly because levels go up faster than saves for character classes, although monsters it usually would need to be by level to be worth it (especially since it would be a fort save). Mostly because the precedent with saves based on level is for the save to be 1/2 your level plus relevant mod and when designing your abilities you want to stick with precedent.
I think smite to be worth the per day increment need a constantly growing list of save or suck effects that start at level one and increase as you level, you should be able to choose a banishing smite, or a dispelling smite. Honestly what I'd like is for there to be several rider effects that you get to choose from every couple of levels (most likely every level you get a new smite) that way paladins like every other class have lots of build options. Ooh, I think I just stumbled on to something by trying to say why the save should be 1/2 level. Although it sounds familiar now that I think of it and now I specifically remember someone else recomending it and me saying I loved it.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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So you've never buffed up BEFORE a battle. Nope. Never seen a fight coming. We just kept getting ambushed all the way to level 20 there. never had the drop on anyone. Nope.
You have a surprising grasp of the hyperbolic. Sometimes you get the drop on them, and you can buff. Sometimes they get the drop on you, and you can't. Sometimes you get into more than 2 fights a day, and then you're outta gas.
And I did say it was a paladin that had at least a +2 WIS, so it would be at 7th level they can use Bull Strength. At 8th they could use it twice.
Yup, I was looking at the PH, not the PF book. My bad.
And the buff aspect of a paladin was how we came to this page of the discussion. I'm not talking about buffs from a third class. (however, I did assume a wide range of oppoents' classes in several examples.)
Indeed it was.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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So these high level NPCs just didnt...
If we could please dispense with the monty haul DM threadjacking, and get back to coming up with a way to help the paladin's psuedo-feeble combat prowess, that would be appreciated.
Thanks
Robert
Yes, yes, fine, fine. Sharp pointy objects put back in the drawer. No further responses.
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I think choosable rider effects (and by the way I would appreciate if everyone here hopped over to the linked thread and suggested a few) would go a long way with smites because BBEG would definitely make it a point to stay clear of the paladin, knowing that if they got smited they were in serious trouble, whereas now they know if they get smited they'll take a few extra damage and just ignore the pally from then on out to deal with after he killed everyone else who could really hurt him.
LOOK!!! another post by me!!(let the rejoicing begin):
1) wtf is a plusta? is that anything like pasta?
2) Robert, I like you, oh fellow Carlinite, but stupid managed to rear its ugly head into this discussion, so please allow me this chance to smite it like we want our Paladin to smite that Devil.
Charlie, you claim there are no magic item stores. <flips open his Player's Guide to the Savage Tide(which was written by the lovely Paizo people): Page six, it lists Spells for Swords(magic shop).
Do I win? if not, i direct you to page nine wherein lies: Glittermane's Vault(magic shop) as well Orimander's Emporium of Souls(Magic Shop and Bookshop). On page 12 is the Witchwarden's Tower, which is the local Arcansit's Guild. I bet you 30 gp and you leaving this thread alone, that they sell magic items. or craft them. Also on that page you'll find a Shrine to Boccob, whose the God of Magic. Now granted a shrine might be very small, but its possible it's big enough to sell magic items, and any attending priests can probably craft at least one type of magic item, since that's one of the big things Boccob preaches. Also listed is the High Market(general goods, exotic wares, jewelry, magic) and Blenak's Bazaar(magic shop and Knowledge(arcana) sage).
Finally, there are plenty of Guildhalls, Mercenary Guilds, i believe an adventurer's guild or three, and at least one thieves' guild, wherein it could be very possible to buy magic items.
SOOOOO.....explain to me again how there are no magic item shops...or GTFO this thread.
3) I really like the idea of adding stun, blind, etc do Smite. bear in mind that at 20th level your smites Banish Evil Outsiders, so unless your suggesting the Pally gets it earlier, there's no need to bring it up.
4) Um, Charlie, you do realize that the Bear's Strength, Cat's Grace, etc only add plus 4 to you stat, right? eventually, you'll have the money to buy an item of +6. sooo, those spells aren't so good any more, are they?
you're not very good at this whole basic knowledge of D&D thing are you?
Once again oh fellow Carlinite Robert, i am sorry that i once more threadjacked this very important thread, but i abhor stupidity.
here, have some plustas(still have no idea what they are) to make up for it.
plusta is just a silly word for plus whatever
are you SURE it's not a cousin of pasta? at least then it would be useful. and probably delicious.
Yes, but the point buy system is pretty much the standard for testing. Most people who play d20 roll stats. You wont find us going to "league play" at conventions because we have kids, jobs, etc.
I've tried to be polite, but you really ought to watch your implications. I work 2 jobs, and still make time for conventions and DMing outside of them. I have plenty of friends who are Married with Children™, with both parents working, and still are able to make time for conventions and gaming.
Just because YOU and the people YOU know don't do these things, doesn't necessarily qualify YOU as an authority on such matters. Hell, if I was speaking from MY personal experiences, then I could claim that there are just as many female gamers as there are male gamers, 90% of them are models, and the average party size is 8 players.
YMMV = Check your rhetoric and prejudices at the door please.
/elf rant
EDIT:
If we could please dispense with the monty haul DM threadjacking, and get back to coming up with a way to help the paladin's psuedo-feeble combat prowess, that would be appreciated.
Thanks
Robert
And here I had a nice post all written up (regarding the casting of buffs vs. feats and item) to keep our pet troll happy and well-fed. *sigh* At least Jason already said most of what I intended to.
Just because YOU and the people YOU know don't do these things, doesn't necessarily qualify YOU as an authority on such matters.
Why not? I find it as least as telling as your response which is "well, my group does do point buy."
It's quite simple. Nobody I know does point buy. So I dont spend any time wonderin about game complications arising from that style.If I posted that I never roll very high for my stats what do you think the response would be? Use point buy (or more dice). Why is that more legitimate?
All I said was that point buy isnt the preferred style here. (for anyone's game including those dudes across town) And , that the problems inherent in point buy dont effect everyone (or in my case, anyone).
LOOK!!! another post by me!!(let the rejoicing begin):
At least if I was to curse you out I wouldnt try to hide it behind cute little acronym's like your trying to hide it from somebody.
Conventional wisdom in many campaign settings is to not have magic item shops because players generally attempt to loot them. This leads to either railroading, premature TPKs, or obliterated plot lines.A spell is always as good as the plustas it gives you. If you decide to load up on a weapon or item that disqualifies it from stacking (and these are about the only buffs a paladin has) when you could easily have bought another item (your magic item stores) then do not complain that the spell is no good. It has a maximum tactical effectiveness that the user allows. And , unless you buy several of these items ,one of the spells will work on you. Be it STR, Con, or Dex, (or even CHA).
So these high level NPCs just didnt...
If we could please dispense with the monty haul DM threadjacking, and get back to coming up with a way to help the paladin's psuedo-feeble combat prowess, that would be appreciated.
Thanks
Robert
I got to thinking of something at work. Turn Smite into something like Rage is in PF;
you get smite points based on level and a stat mod.these get used to buy attacks from a list of "smites", some stack, some wouldnt
you use it, then decide if you need a bigger smite or a bag to hold the evil dudes' loot.
and if you run out of smite points before you run out of bad guys, run away and level up. =P
Edit: then if there are only two encounters a day, I seriouslyrock, or I can spreadthem out over more fights (and not crowd out other melee types)
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I got to thinking of something at work. Turn Smite into something like Rage is in PF;
you get smite points based on level and a stat mod.
these get used to buy attacks from a list of "smites", some stack, some wouldnt
you use it, then decide if you need a bigger smite or a bag to hold the evil dudes' loot.
and if you run out of smite points before you run out of bad guys, run away and level up. =PEdit: then if there are only two encounters a day, I seriouslyrock, or I can spreadthem out over more fights (and not crowd out other melee types)
I've actually considered something very similar - specifically now with that updated system of rage (non-point system). That was where the smite-related abilites comes in: such as the Stun, Staggered, Blinding, CMB enhancing, Dispelling, etc.
Its a completely different mechanic than smite is currently, but a move in the right direction IMO.
Like I said a dozen times before, the issue that needs to be closely looked into is making the paladin more capable in combat irrespective of smite, however. Smites do need to be improved; but the general combat capabilities need to be upgraded as well so as to not fall so far behind the other martial characters.
Full-level spellcasting with swift action activation, coupled with a few bonus feats is certainly an effective method. But there are very few feats that actually give you a bonus to attack and damage - and that is where the paladin needs the help the most.
Robert
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LOOK!!! another post by me!!(let the rejoicing begin):Conventional wisdom in many campaign settings is to not have magic item shops because players generally attempt to loot them. This leads to either railroading, premature TPKs, or obliterated plot lines.
A spell is always as good as the plustas it gives you. If you decide to load up on a weapon or item that disqualifies it from stacking (and these are about the only buffs a paladin has) when you could easily have bought another item (your magic item stores) then do not complain that the spell is no good. It has a maximum tactical effectiveness that the user allows. And , unless you buy several of these items ,one of the spells will work on you. Be it STR, Con, or Dex, (or even CHA).
Conventional wisdom perhaps. But thinking outside the box, my wisdom tells me that if as DM I made it easier on the players to obtain the magical items they would want by including such a market, and they snub that by attacking it and robbing it etc....well lets just say that I wouldn't be including such a golden-handshake in the next campaign for them.
And as a player, I wouldn't bit the hand that feeds me in that way, either. It is a two-way street of respect. Much like the DM creates a story and plot; as players our job is to follow the hooks and leads....or else there's really no game to play!
Granted this is a more sophisticated way of thinking that isn't necessarily conventional, but if you sit and consider it, it may begin to make sense.
Robert
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2) Robert, I like you, oh fellow Carlinite,
Thanks, mate. It's not everyday I "meet" someone with as much knowledge and passion in his legacy as I am. I have all three of his books; if you haven't read them - they are fantastic - especially "Brain Droppings." I highly reccomend you check that out!
Charlie, you claim there are no magic item stores. <flips open his Player's Guide to the Savage Tide(which was written by the lovely Paizo people): Page six, it lists Spells for Swords(magic shop).Do I win? if not, i direct you to page nine wherein lies: Glittermane's Vault(magic shop) as well Orimander's Emporium of Souls(Magic Shop and Bookshop). On page 12 is the Witchwarden's Tower, which is the local Arcansit's Guild. I bet you 30 gp and you leaving this thread alone, that they sell magic items. or craft them. Also on that page you'll find a Shrine to Boccob, whose the God of Magic. Now granted a shrine might be very small, but its possible it's big enough to sell magic items, and any attending priests can probably craft at least one type of magic item, since that's one of the big things Boccob preaches. Also listed is the High Market(general goods, exotic wares, jewelry, magic) and Blenak's Bazaar(magic shop and Knowledge(arcana) sage).
you're not very good at this whole basic knowledge of D&D thing are you?
You're hilarious. Definitely Carlin-esque sarcastic humor. Many old-school gamers still don't like to implement magic-item shops - it wasn't as popular of a notion in earlier editions. Then again - you didn't need as many magic items to be status-quo effective in those editions. 3rd edition made having to have magic items to be with the curve of the ECL of each module a necessity. Thus magic shops were popularized. I think Paizo is trying to remove some of the necessity of magic items - which I think is a great move. Personally, I'd rather see the character classes be signifantly improved and the magic items be significantly reduced to make the characters rely on themselves and not their equipment to be APL for the adventures.
Once again oh fellow Carlinite Robert, i am sorry that i once more threadjacked this very important thread, but i abhor stupidity.here, have some plustas(still have no idea what they are) to make up for it.
I can turn a blind eye for a Carlinite and forgive you this time. :-) I think that is George's biggest legacy that he left us: the emphasis to learn to think for ourselves and to not tolerate chronic stupidity. He had a way of making you look at things from a fresh perspective and say, "I never thought of it that way......oh my, he's right!" Now I find myself having the same sort of revelations and observations about things most just take for granted or at someone's word. "well....he sounds fairly intelligent.........AH! He's FULL of sh*t!"
I have a message-board that is highly-utilized by my players for my campaigns that I'm involved in - full of all the house rules, campaign info, stories, journals etc. On the site, I keep a D&D related blog - mostly from my DM perspective. On the day after George's death, I wrote a memorium for my lost hero. Here's the link if you want to read it.....
Thanks for helping out the paladin discussion.
Robert
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Hell, if I was speaking from MY personal experiences, then I could claim that there are just as many female gamers as there are male gamers, 90% of them are models, and the average party size is 8 players.
[ot] Is there room for more in this group? I think you need another non-female, non-model to balance things out... :) [/ot]
I got to thinking of something at work. Turn Smite into something like Rage is in PF;
you get smite points based on level and a stat mod.
these get used to buy attacks from a list of "smites", some stack, some wouldnt
you use it, then decide if you need a bigger smite or a bag to hold the evil dudes' loot.
and if you run out of smite points before you run out of bad guys, run away and level up. =PEdit: then if there are only two encounters a day, I seriouslyrock, or I can spreadthem out over more fights (and not crowd out other melee types)
I've actually considered something very similar - specifically now with that updated system of rage (non-point system). That was where the smite-related abilites comes in: such as the Stun, Staggered, Blinding, CMB enhancing, Dispelling, etc.
Its a completely different mechanic than smite is currently, but a move in the right direction IMO.
Like I said a dozen times before, the issue that needs to be closely looked into is making the paladin more capable in combat irrespective of smite, however. Smites do need to be improved; but the general combat capabilities need to be upgraded as well so as to not fall so far behind the other martial characters.
Full-level spellcasting with swift action activation, coupled with a few bonus feats is certainly an effective method. But there are very few feats that actually give you a bonus to attack and damage - and that is where the paladin needs the help the most.
Robert
And that is where we are going to continue disagreeing. I dont think the paladin needs to be on a par with fighters in melee. Even with smites. They branched off in their specialisation and that is the price they pay for their diversity.
I'd go with an improved smite, a bit better LoH (maybe making it a free action as well), and some more spells ...|
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Robert
And that is where we are going to continue disagreeing. I dont think the paladin needs to be on a par with fighters in melee. Even with smites. They branched off in their specialisation and that is the price they pay for their diversity.
I'd go with an improved smite, a bit better LoH (maybe making it a free action as well), and some more spells ...Fair enough; but once again for the record, I am not trying to make him as good (or better) as the fighter; what I have been lobbying for it making him better than he is and close the gap of disparity by half it's current gap.
Whereas my number illustrate quite succinctly a typical difference of about +6 to +8 in attack rolls at 10th level; nearing +10 to +12 by 20th.; a difference of damage of +10 to +20 in damage per attack, and a difference in AC of +4 upwards of +8. Those are astronomical gaps for a front-line fighter martial character type. I have been trying to gain some combat effectiveness to cut those gaps in half - not I repeat NOT be as good. I understand the price for diversity.
Robert
Robert
And that is where we are going to continue disagreeing. I dont think the paladin needs to be on a par with fighters in melee. Even with smites. They branched off in their specialisation and that is the price they pay for their diversity.
I'd go with an improved smite, a bit better LoH (maybe making it a free action as well), and some more spells ...
Fair enough; but once again for the record, I am not trying to make him as good (or better) as the fighter; what I have been lobbying for it making him better than he is and close the gap of disparity by half it's current gap.
Whereas my number illustrate quite succinctly a typical difference of about +6 to +8 in attack rolls at 10th level; nearing +10 to +12 by 20th.; a difference of damage of +10 to +20 in damage per attack, and a difference in AC of +4 upwards of +8. Those are astronomical gaps for a front-line fighter martial character type. I have been trying to gain some combat effectiveness to cut those gaps in half - not I repeat NOT be as good. I understand the price for diversity.
Robert
I spent a lot of gametime between the levels of 10 and 20 in a party that included a paladin and a fighter (and a bard and a rogue). I dont remember either of them missing too often. In fact it was a rarity. I think on most things the fighter hit on a 2 or higher and the pally needed only like 6 or something. So there is your +8 difference. Bottomed out to the point that they had to try and make it harder on their own to hit stuff ("can I swing while climbing?") If we still went by THAC0 the fighter would be ahead on down the line for negative ACs but they were both at 2.
Is this the end all evidence you need? Probably not. But I'm just mentioning it because it doesnt seem to me to be that much of a deal in actual gameplay. All your numbers not withsatnding.