Director of Games
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Hi all,
Something that is mentioned in the WOTC PHB is the idea that a cleric or paladin is not required to have a deity, but can worship an ideal or code, picking two domains of their choice.
Is this an option in Golarion? Pathfinder is strangely silent on this ...
Page 22, Domain Powers, 2nd Paragraph.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Director of Games
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'Sprobably worth making that explicit, then. A simple "If the cleric has a deity," added before the proficiency list would cover it nicely.What favored weapon, if any, do such clerics get to wield?None. There are advantages to choosing a deity.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Agreed
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Just a thought: since Paladins are not required to worship a specific god, if a Paladin without a Patron God takes the Divine Bond:Weapon, what kind of weapon this would be ? I mean, the power requires that "the weapon is her deity’s favored weapon". Is this the same case of the "God-less" Cleric, no Bonded Weapon at all ? Or can the Paladin choose Longsword or Warhammer (either one of them), since the Longsword is the weapon of the Law and the Warhammer is the weapon of the Good (as per the Spiritual Weapon spell, pag. 275, that creates a copy of the deity's favored weapon, and for Clerics without a patron deity it creates a weapon that matches his alignment)? It would be a shame if a Paladin that follows the entire pantheon of goodness cannot use a Bonded Weapon at all (and sticks only with "Horsemon"... "WhiteManeChu, I choose you !!!")
I do not like the idea of a cleric without a god ... the point is, when you have a god, you have someone who has given you his gift, but also someone to which you must respond if your actions are wrong ... is a trade - off, you get a powerfull class ( but not too appealing ... is not easy to find someone who likes to play cleric), but you are not completly free in your actions .. if you breake your code of behavior, be sure that you will pay the conseguences ... without a god, you are no more linked to someone who will judge your actions ... you get all for free ... seems to easy playing a cleric in this way ... besides, no god sometimes became an excuse to pick the best domains with absolute freedom ... losing weapon proficency in too little compared to the advantages you get ... and besides, i feel is bad for Role-Playing too ...
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i would say that the paladin can bond with whathever is his favorite weapon, infusing the divine with it
but it might be also a good punishment for a godless paladin to let him stick with "horsemon... i chose you"
i agree with the last poster... i don't like godless clerics or paladins, otherwise a farmer with just a lot of faith would be able to do miracles without even believen in anything but a couple and open paradigms
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See, I tend to see it not as the cleric picking the cause, but the cause picking the cleric. same as why a farmer who believes and has a lot of faith can't do spells but a cleric of the same god can. that way, if the forces of law and the sun choose a cleric to fight for their cause, then he has spells pertaining to them. and he does have someone to answer to. the forces of law and the sun. they can just as easily revoke their trust in their chosen as a god can in his/hers. and there is no reason you can't give them a favored weapon if you wanted to (besides the book saying it only works if your god has one). If you want to play RAW (which I believe these threads are supposed to be), then see it as an added benefit of being chosen by a god instead of an abstract concept, not as a punishment for not being chosen.
Also, somes of you guys act like this didn't come up in 3.5, the whole cleric-of-a-cause-instead-of-a-deity. did none of your players do this?
I never allow this myself. same with paladin you must have a god. Some setting make this a requirement the forgotten realms for instance paladin and clerics must have a god. That's my rule as welL
yeah the Paladin angle would be useful to note as it will cause confusion if not.
I never allow this myself. same with paladin you must have a god. Some setting make this a requirement the forgotten realms for instance paladin and clerics must have a god. That's my rule as welL
In the Realms, all divine magic comes from Deities. That means that rangers, druids, paladins, clerics, favoured souls, whatever - they all need a cleric. Rangers is the only of these who can work, but they don't get spells.
I never allow this myself. same with paladin you must have a god. Some setting make this a requirement the forgotten realms for instance paladin and clerics must have a god. That's my rule as welLIn the Realms, all divine magic comes from Deities. That means that rangers, druids, paladins, clerics, favoured souls, whatever - they all need a cleric. Rangers is the only of these who can work, but they don't get spells.
Yes this is true.I just forgot to bring up druids and rangers, favor soul has never been used in my games
I kind of like the idea of one being able to access the power of the divine without being beholden to a god. This has made for some interesting characters in my group such as a Cleric who follows an entire pantheon rather than a specific deity or one who is on the path to god-hood or any other number of things. This has also caused some interesting RP amongst the party (including members who don't usually RP much) as the god-fearing and the godless have their theological discussions and debates.
So no Agnostic/animistic/Buddhist/witch doctor type clerics then?
Personally I try and leave clerics connection to the divine up to the player of the character to avoid stepping on toes for everyone. In real life I don't like the idea of bending knee to any god, and try not to bother other's about their choices on the issue.
So no Agnostic/animistic/Buddhist/witch doctor type clerics then?
Read here:
Page 22, Domain Powers, 2nd Paragraph.
If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, you still
select two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations.
There you have it. The RPG allows clerics that don't follow a particular deity. I'm not sure whether they're officially possible in Golarion, but my guess would be yes. And even if not, it doesn't seem like the world would end if you allwed it in your game. Unless other campaign settings, there is no special event that explains why the gods block clerics of an alternate religious system.
Personally I try and leave clerics connection to the divine up to the player of the character to avoid stepping on toes for everyone. In real life I don't like the idea of bending knee to any god, and try not to bother other's about their choices on the issue.
To argue for the sake of argument: The reward for faith in a god in D&D is very obvious: Those clerics get to cast divine spells! Unlike in our world, where faith is pure, well, faith, D&D gods offer smoe proof to their existence. Thus, the argument that only the gods can grant clerics godly power in D&D is backed up pretty well.
But personally, I don't have any problems with clerics that follow a form of religion that isn't based on a single god (or not based on a god at all), as long as there's some actual higher power they appeal to. A cleric of atheism or even agnosticism would be out of the question in my games, but a witch doctor or pantheist or something like that would certainly be OK.
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Creative Director
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Godless clerics are possible under the Pathfinder RPG... as they should be. I'm not sure if they're possible in Golarion, though. To be honest, we probably just won't say one way or another and let each individual GM decide if he wants Godless clerics in his Golarion campaign; we just won't have NPC clerics without deities showing up. It's generally not good game design to set arbitrary "nos" into stone, after all...
Very true James it should be allowed in the PFRPG. Not sure I like it in my setting but many do.
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Hm, missed the paladin angle. I am going to make a note of that for the final. I think longsword or warhammer make for fine, logical choices.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Sucks for my character who wields a pick given to him by his mother and whos powers are derived from truly devoting himself to the cause of chivalry. Pokemount it will be.
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Sucks for my character who wields a pick given to him by his mother and whos powers are derived from truly devoting himself to the cause of chivalry. Pokemount it will be.Hm, missed the paladin angle. I am going to make a note of that for the final. I think longsword or warhammer make for fine, logical choices.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
or mayb they needed moreoptions
there are also the knights of chivalry with lances and polearms, much less the ones with axes... (usually in theside of the eil abrbarian being smited)