Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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...regardless of what form the mechanics of Smite Evil take going forward - I was to re-emphasize the need for a bonus to attack rolls and damage against evil in general all the time...How about giving the paladin Favoured Enemy (Evil Outsiders)?
It fits the theme, it does the job of making them more effective against their natural enemies all the time, it compensates them for their low skill points by making them more able to identify their foes' powers, and less likely to be tricked, and as the cherry on the top, it opens up a whole bunch of (OGL or non-OGL) Feats and Prestige Classes that grant extra options to affect such an enemy.
Am I right in thinking the restriction on multi-classing has been lifted? That a paladin can take another class, and then return to resume more levels in paladin? The relevant restrictive text is no longer in the Beta, but I can imagine some players/DMs assuming the old 3.5 rule still applied. Can this be explicitly confirmed?
If the paladin can freely multi-class, then the idea of a Paladin/Ranger 'Holy Spawnslayer' looks intriguing.
I like it, but let me go you one better.
Paladins should have a new ability:
Foe of evil: At 1st level, paladins gain a +1 bonus to Intimidate, Perception, and Sense Motive checks against any evil creature, in addition to Knowledge checks made to identify or ascertain the combat capabilities of an evil creature. Paladins also gain a +1 bonus to weapon damage vs. evil creatures.
A paladin's foe of evil bonus increases by 1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter. In addition, the bonuses provided by this ability are doubled against evil outsiders or a creature with an aura of evil, such as an evil cleric or a creature with the evil subtype.
You could also add a final sentence:
This ability is considered equivalent to a ranger's favored enemy bonus for the purpose of qualifying for feats and prestige classes, and any feat or ability that enhances a ranger's favored enemy bonus may also be applied to a paladin's foe of evil bonus.
Thoughts?
Paladins get channeling at 4th level, 1 + Cha/day (as compared to the cleric, 3 + Cha/day).
What about giving them this ability at 1st level, with the ability to trade in a channeling for a smite? It could do the same amount of damage to an evil creature as the channeling would to undead and give them their paladin level as a bonus to hit. They won't get more smites per day, but their smiting ability will get more powerful as they advance.
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Paladins get channeling at 4th level, 1 + Cha/day (as compared to the cleric, 3 + Cha/day).
What about giving them this ability at 1st level, with the ability to trade in a channeling for a smite? It could do the same amount of damage to an evil creature as the channeling would to undead and give them their paladin level as a bonus to hit. They won't get more smites per day, but their smiting ability will get more powerful as they advance.
It might be worthwhile to consider this option; if paladins can basically use Turning Smite for free and on any evil opponent, that would help a great deal.
Unfortunately, Jason seems to want to stick closer to the previous version, so I'm thinking it's not likely to happen. I'd like to see it explored as a possibility, though, in case I'm wrong.
Not a fan of combining smite and detect evil. I really, really think detect evil needs to stay as it is for the paladin.
That having been said, I know the biggest problem for smite is that you get the charisma bonus to hit, so if the smite isn't expended, then the paladin keeps getting the +cha to hit.
First, I'm wondering if the paladin misses even with the bonus, is this a problem, and I'd be interested to see what everyone thinks of this particular question.
Second, if it is a problem (and I'm not sure if it is), what if the paladin could declare a smite to get the cha bonus to hit, and if he misses the use is expended, but if he doesn't declare the attack before he rolls to hit, the cha bonus is applied to damage instead, and if the paladin misses, its not expended in this case?
How does either of these options sound?
If the paladin can freely multi-class, then the idea of a Paladin/Ranger 'Holy Spawnslayer' looks intriguing.
By 'intriguing' you meant 'terminally MAD' then I agree. STR, DEX, CON, CHA and WIS all being needed. Plus INT if you want decent skills.
MAD
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You know what my problem with the to hit bonus of the paladin with smite is. The Cha mod boost is great at low levels, good at mid levels, and negligible at high levels. What if the to hit bonus was changed to 1/2 level x Cha mod. At first level it would stay the same, but at higher levels it would manage to keep up with the ACs of the BBEGs.
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If by 'intriguing' you meant 'terminally MAD' then I agree. STR, DEX, CON, CHA and WIS all being needed. Plus INT if you want decent skills.
You should realise by now, that all my PCs are 'terminally mad'.
Oh, you mean 'Mutual Attribute Dependency'?
Yeah, right.
Isn't that what cheap stat-boosters are for?
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Isn't that what cheap stat-boosters are for?
Fair enough - but cheap isn't so cheap anymore - with PF making it only one mental and one physical item being able to be worn at any given time - sure you can combine multiple ability score enhancements into the same item - but the cost is 50% higher....thus not as cheap as cheap.
Robert
Well, at higher levels, I frequently combined my items into belt or headband slots. Extra item slots are easily worth the expenditure!
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Hey guys, I'm pretty sure the idea was mentioned in this thread to have optional rider effects (save or sucks) attached to a paladins smite. If you like the idea we are creating a compilation of possible uses on this thread and could use more
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...regardless of what form the mechanics of Smite Evil take going forward - I was to re-emphasize the need for a bonus to attack rolls and damage against evil in general all the time...How about giving the paladin Favoured Enemy (Evil Outsiders)?
It fits the theme, it does the job of making them more effective against their natural enemies all the time, it compensates them for their low skill points by making them more able to identify their foes' powers, and less likely to be tricked, and as the cherry on the top, it opens up a whole bunch of (OGL or non-OGL) Feats and Prestige Classes that grant extra options to affect such an enemy.
Am I right in thinking the restriction on multi-classing has been lifted? That a paladin can take another class, and then return to resume more levels in paladin? The relevant restrictive text is no longer in the Beta, but I can imagine some players/DMs assuming the old 3.5 rule still applied. Can this be explicitly confirmed?
If the paladin can freely multi-class, then the idea of a Paladin/Ranger 'Holy Spawnslayer' looks intriguing.
I like it, but let me go you one better.
Paladins should have a new ability:
Foe of evil: At 1st level, paladins gain a +1 bonus to Intimidate, Perception, and Sense Motive checks against any evil creature, in addition to Knowledge checks made to identify or ascertain the combat capabilities of an evil creature. Paladins also gain a +1 bonus to weapon damage vs. evil creatures.
A paladin's foe of evil bonus increases by 1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter. In addition, the bonuses provided by this ability are doubled against evil outsiders or a creature with an aura of evil, such as an evil cleric or a creature with the evil subtype.
You could also add a final sentence:
[i]This ability is considered equivalent to a ranger's favored enemy bonus for the purpose of qualifying for feats and prestige classes, and any feat or ability...
I'm all for that! Maybe even have the damage bonus increase at every 3 levels even.
Although, I would also add a line in there that the damage bonus does not stack with that of a Ranger, only the higher value is used. This would cut down a little bit on double-dipping, but then again might not be necessary.
'Mutual Attribute Dependency'?
Yeah, right.Isn't that what cheap stat-boosters are for?
As a concept it's still not a good idea - even if looking like a magic christmas tree is your 'thang'.
Now, Paladin/Bard is a neat idea...
I play a lot of pallies. I like them lots. Snorter asked me give my bent 2cps worth. Mainly coz he knows I can't resist anyway...
Before I would look at this power in mechanics, I'd look at it flavour-wise. All the following is IMHO. Anyone wanting to get to the mechanics just go look for the bold text.
Smite Evil is a deliberate attack made by the paladin on a foe that he knows is an evil fugger. His attack is made with the intent to put the miscreant in the ground, quickly and with a degree of confidence (d20 rolls notwithstanding). He will do this when it is necessary, not indiscriminately, and certainly as soon as it is possible. He does this straight out of the box, with no specific equipment. It is definitely there to kill the creature - for evil foes upon whom he will use this ability, only one result is the right result. It is a single attack, drawing upon his deity's favour in a smash of divine power, it is not something that can be sustained. His belief is such that he will use this power before swinging his blade - part of the power is his faith in his deity and his own ability to make it count, not some contingency - heroes don't work via contingency.
Right, that being said, onto more definitive stuff. Smite Evil is akin to a Cleric's Turn Undead, but more physical. View it that way and it becomes a lot easier to put rules around. I would also put it (game power wise) into the same category as sneak attack, but NOT rage. Bearing in mind that sneak attack can be used far more often than Smite Evil, and does more damage, then some balancing has to occur. For example, I have seen fights where my paladin smites evil and does some damage, but then the rogue comes in and absolutely disembowels the bad guy just coz my paladin was standing across from him. On one occasion, after a stirring speech of "You shall die under the blade of righteousness today, fiend!", my character grazed him, the rogue turned him into a bad guy kebab. Not Good.
So:
- SE overcomes all DR on an evil target.
- SE can be used with any weapon (ranged, melee, natural, unarmed, etc).
- SE adds paladin level + CHA bonus to attack roll.
- SE adds +d6/2 paladin levels to the damage dealt.
- A SE decision is a free action.
So far so normal-ish. There's more:
- SE ignores concealment and soft cover. At higher levels (11+) hard cover is ignored - the paladins attack smashes through such obstructions.
SE can be used (however many times the pathfinder rules state - I don't have the pdf in front of me) BUT:
- A paladin may burn turn undead attempts and/or spell slots to gain more SE attempts. 2 spell levels or 2 TU uses equates to a SE use. This is also a free action. There may be other pathfinder paladin powers that can also be 'burned' but I don't know what they are.
A final thought was to allow the 'burn other abilities' rule in order to re-roll failed SE attempts, but I thought I'd let you guys discuss that.
That would suit me fine I think.
Oh, and all those advocating a full round or more of smite evil are risking chain magic pile-up of abilities. Just a word to the wise.
I'm curious to know what you think of optional rider effects attached to smite being discussed on the thread I linked to earlier Matt.
That is one great thread! I ignored it earlier because I thought it was for 'riders', i.e. mounted paladins. How wrong I was!
Lots of the things on there could apply here or vice versa. Let's just use them all! With DM approval of course *ahem*.
I think the most ingenious on there is using multiple scares, frightened or whatever to cause a BBEG to actually run away. That's classic. Although I still maintain that a pally wants to kill such beings, not let them get away...
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I'm curious to know what you think of optional rider effects attached to smite being discussed on the thread I linked to earlier Matt.That is one great thread! I ignored it earlier because I thought it was for 'riders', i.e. mounted paladins. How wrong I was!
Lots of the things on there could apply here or vice versa. Let's just use them all! With DM approval of course *ahem*.
I think the most ingenious on there is using multiple scares, frightened or whatever to cause a BBEG to actually run away. That's classic. Although I still maintain that a pally wants to kill such beings, not let them get away...
I would argue that that is the choice of the individual paladin. And there is no reason that he couldn't just summon his celestial mount and ride down the coward. I understand that you and I wouldn't play a paladin that way, but I want options for players. Not to mention that when panicked if cornered all they can do is quiver in fear if you aren't attacking them. Easy case for my character to slap on the manacles, disarm and gag him, and take him to town to face justice. Are you telling me that isn't in the nature and flavor of a paladin :)?
Anyways, I want as many suggestions for abilities as possible and if nothing else enough people going there and saying "Yes please" might get Jason's attention. So please swing by the thread and give your approval there.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Hmmm... I think I like that 'Foe of Evil'-ability, although I'm not so keen on the name. Would it make the paladin too good against most monsters and NPCs in the game? The ranger's ability only works against certain monsters, after all...
It's true, but that's why I put it at only half the value of the ranger's ability.
P.S. Paladin + bard is a great fit, at least in terms of abilities, especially when it comes to the ability to inspire courage/greatness/heroics in allies.
Now, Paladin/Bard is a neat idea...
I played one in 3.5, solely because everyone kept telling me how much they hated bards and paladins and multiclassed characters... great fun.
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- SE overcomes all DR on an evil target.
- SE can be used with any weapon (ranged, melee, natural, unarmed, etc).
- SE adds paladin level + CHA bonus to attack roll.
- SE adds +d6/2 paladin levels to the damage dealt.
- A SE decision is a free action.
So far so normal-ish. There's more:
- SE ignores concealment and soft cover.
At higher levels (11+) hard cover is ignored - the paladins attack smashes through such obstructions.
SE can be used (however many times the pathfinder rules state - I don't have the pdf in front of me) BUT:
- A paladin may burn turn undead attempts and/or spell slots to gain more SE attempts. 2 spell levels or 2 TU uses equates to a SE use. This is also a free action. There may be other pathfinder paladin powers that can also be 'burned' but I don't know what they are.
I'm almost 100% behind everything you've said. I've spent a while trying out different things with the Paladin, and I think you've just about hit the nail on the head. Definitely some kind of "overcoming DR" as a natural part of the Smite; I'm thinking something that scales... perhaps as "Good" at 1st level, then "Lawful" at 6th, and all DR at 12th.
The changes to attack & damage that you propose would be interesting to playtest. The bonus to attack helps make sure that you hit (would that bonus apply to confirm critical threats as well?), and the damage scales comparatively with Sneak Attack, but only against evil creatures (multiplied in a critical hit?). Hmm...
I don't see the need to specify it as a free action. If we agree that it's a singular attack, why not just say that it functions as part of a standard attack action?
I love the flavour of the concealment/cover negate effect! Obviously the mechanic is fun, but the image of a holy Paladin smashing through a wall to subdue the BBEG hiding on the other side is just great. :)
I also really like the idea of burning Turn Undead or spell slots for more SE. I've liked how part of playing a Paladin is making that judgement call about what you need more, so I relish the idea of deciding if I want to hold onto that 1st level spell or get in another smite attempt.
All-in-all, some real great stuff here that I would LOVE to see implemented! Paizo folks, please look long and hard at these suggestions!
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A paladin may burn turn undead attempts and/or spell slots to gain more SE attempts. 2 spell levels or 2 TU uses equates to a SE use. This is also a free action. There may be other pathfinder paladin powers that can also be 'burned' but I don't know what they are.
Heh.
Now he brings out the big guns...:)How many Turn Undead attempts/day did Kaile have, by the time we went demon-lord hunting?
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(Crossposted from 'Paladin Smite Effects'-thread):
Here are the suggestions I posted on the Alpha threads, plus a couple more from the Beta threads. Note that they're all supposed to be 'Faith Powers' that function with points just as the Rage Powers do. They can be divided into three "sub-groups": "Generic" combat abilities, Auras, and Smites. The paladin may have *one* active Aura "on" at all times.
Also note that some of the powers may overlap with each other or the ideas of another poster, and the exact wording on the same mechanical effects may vary -- I haven't done any "real" proofreading or editing yet.
* * *
FAITH POWERS:
As the paladin gains experience, he learns to channel his divine abilities in new ways. Starting at 2nd level, the paladin gains one Faith Power. He gains an additional Faith Power for every two levels of paladin attained after 2nd level. The paladin cannot select an individual Faith Power more than once. Unless otherwise noted, these abilities are free actions that must be performed on your turn. The paladin counts as his own ally for all purposes of these powers.
Shield Other (Su): For 1 round + 1 round per point of his Charisma modifier the paladin may create an effect similar to the cleric spell Shield Other. This gives a +2 deflection bonus to an ally within 10 feet. (5 points)
Divine Reflexes (Su): The paladin gains a dodge bonus to his armor class equal to 1/2 his Paladin level (rounded down) for one round + 1 round per his Charisma Bonus Modifier against melee attacks. (10 points)
Divine Shield (Su): The paladin gains a sacred bonus to his armor class equal to half his paladin level (rounded down) for one round + 1 round per his Charisma Bonus Modifier. The paladin must be wearing a shield to use this power. This bonus stacks with any enhancement or armor bonus the shield already has. (10 points)
Divine Persistence (Su): The paladin may re-roll a failed saving throw. This power is used as an immediate action after the saving throw is failed. The paladin must take the second result, even if it is worse than the first result. The paladin must be at least 8th level before selecting this power. (10 points)
Divine Presence (Su): The paladin may add +4 Sacred Bonus to all his Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate checks for the duration of one round + 1 round per his Charisma Bonus Modifier. In addition to this, for the duration of the effect, the paladin may use any Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate skill check as a Swift Action. The paladin must be at least 4th leve before taking this power. (5 points)
Divine Resistance (Su): For the duration of one round , the paladin gains Resistance 10 against any chosen energy type ( electricity, fire, cold, acid or sonic) per 5 Divine Mana points spent (max. 15 points). The paladin cannot increase this beyond 30 resistance. A paladin must be at least 12th level before selecting this ability. ( 5, 10, or 15 points)
Divine Might (Su): For the duration of one round the paladin may add his Charisma modifier to his hit and damage rolls. ( 5 Points )
Divine Glory (Su): As a standard action, the paladin can unleash a burst of radiant divine energy that dazes all evil beings within 30 feet radius who fail their Will saving throw versus DC 10 + 1/2 the paladin's level + the paladin's Charisma Modifier. This duration of this effect lasts for one round plus 1 round per the paladin's Charisma Modifier. Whether this saving throw was successful or not, each enemy caught within the burst is immune to this power for 24 hours. The paladin must be at least 12th level before selecting this power and he must have taken Stunning Smite. (15 points)
Divine Vigor (Su): The paladin may invoke this power to gain 3 temporary hit points per Faith Point spent up to the maximum number of points equal to his level. All damage to the paladin is first These hit points last until duration of these temporary hit points is one round + 1 round per his Charisma Modifier. ( Up to the maximum of 1 point per paladin level)
Mirror of Penance (Su): The paladin chooses one adjacent evil and intelligent foe and as a free action can make an Intimidate check against him. If the Paladin successfully demoralizes his enemy, the foe is shaken for 1 round plus a number of rounds equal to the paladin's Charisma Modifier due to seeing a reflection of its own evil soul in the paladin's eyes. (10 points)
Blessed Strike (Su): The paladin automatically confirms a critical hit on an evil enemy. This power is used as a swift action once a critical threat has been determined. The paladin must be at least 8th level before selecting this power. (10 points)
Sacrifice of the Martyr (Su): The paladin uses this power to protect an ally within 20 feet by taking half of all damage the chosen ally receives for 1 round. The paladin must be at least 8th level before selecting this power.( 10 Points )
Sacred Mantle (Su): The paladin gains SR = 12 + Paladin Level for 1 round versus all spells or spell-like abilities from evil casters. This power may be activated as a swift action. The paladin must be at least 12th level before taking this power. ( 15 points )
Hand of Glory (Su): This power allows the paladin to touch an ally to restore 1d4 ability damage as per Lesser Restoration. The paladin must be at least 8th level before taking this power. ( 10 points)
Divine Touch (Su): To choose this power the Paladin must first have taken the Hand of Glory power. This power allows the paladin to touch an ally with the effect which functions as the Restoration spell. The paladin must be at least 8th level before taking this power. ( 15 points )
Sacred Vow (Su): The paladin may swear a sacred vow to his deity that he is going to defeat a certain enemy in combat. The paladin receives +2 morale bonus to all his attacks, damage and saving throws against this enemy for the number of rounds equal to one round + 1 round per his Charisma Modifier Bonus (if any). If the paladin fails to defeat that foe during this time, he immediately receives -2 to all rolls for the next 24 hours (the paladin must must deal the final blow to that enemy). (5 points)
Baneful Strike (Su): All of the Paladin's attacks deal an additional 1d6 points of sacred damage against evil enemies for one round. This damage stacks with any sacred or holy damage dealt by special weapon abilities even if it is the same type. This power is used as a swift action before any attacks are made. The paladin must be 12th level before selecting this power.(15 points)
Smite Infidel (Su): The paladin may smite any being who is not a worshipper of his or her deity. The paladin must be at least 8th level before selecting this power. (10 points)
Healing Smite (Su): When the paladin smites, he heals hit point damage equal to half the damage of his smite attack, plus his Charisma Modifier. The paladin must be at least 4th level before selecting this power. (10 points)
Martyr’s Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin may sacrifice any number of hit points to gain extra damage dice for this attack. For every 5 hit points he sacrifices this way, he may roll an additional +1d6 sacred damage. The paladin must declare that he is using this ability before he attacks. The paladin must be at least 12th level before taking this power. (15 points)
Stunning Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin channels divine energy through his weapon, stunning his enemy for one round unless the target succeeds in a Will saving throw versus DC 10 + 1/2 the paladin's level + the paladin's Charisma Modifier. Even if this saving throw is successful, the target is still dazed for one round. Creatures immune to critical hits are also immune to this power.
Glorious Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin may also Channel Positive Energy through his weapon, healing all allies and damaging all evil undead in a 30 feet radius. Using this power also uses up one of his Turn Undead attempts for the day (if he hasn’t any left, he cannot use this power). The paladin must be at least 16th level before taking this power, and he must have taken Vengeful Smite. (20 points)
Banishing Smite (Su): As he smites, the target of the paladin's attack is affected as per the Banishment spell, with the paladin’s class level as the caster level. The paladin must be at least 16th level before taking this power. (20 points)
Heavenly Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin may ignore any DR or Spell Resistance the target of his attack may have. In addition to this, if this attack hits, it is automatically a critical hit. The paladin must be at least 18th level before taking this power. (20 points)
Aura of Blessing (Su): The paladin uses this power to bolster the saving throws and attacks of all allies within 10 feet radius. This effect is identical to the Bless spell, with the paladin’s character level as the caster level. (5 points per round)
Aura of Consecration (Su): All evil enemies within 10 feet radius of the paladin receive -1 morale penalty to their attack rolls again the paladin's allies. (5 points per round)
Aura of Light (Su): The paladin sheds light as a Daylight spell within 10 feet radius, and all beings vulnerable to daylight are normally affected as per the spell. (5 points per round)
Aura of Protection (Su): The paladin may use this power to grant +2 sacred bonus on all saving throws to all his allies within 10 feet radius. (5 points per round)
Aura of Vitality (Su): The paladin may use this power to grant Fast Healing 1 to all his allies within 10 feet radius. The paladin must be at least 4th level before taking this power. (5 points per round)
Aura of Shielding (Su): The paladin may use this power to grant +2 sacred bonus on AC to all his allies within 10 feet radius. The paladin must be at least 4th level before taking this power. (10 points per round)
Aura of Vengeance (Su): Any melee attacks against the paladin that deal damage inflict 1d6 sacred damage to whoever attacked the paladin, if that being is within 10 feet radius of the paladin. The paladin must be at least 8th level before taking this power. (10 points per round)
Aura of Truth (Su): All allies within 10 feet radius of the paladin receive the benefits of True Seeing. The paladin must be at least 14th level before taking this power. (20 points per round)
Aura of the Martyr (Su): The paladin uses this power to protect all allies within 20 feet by taking half of all damage they receive. The paladin may not take this power until he reaches 12th level and he must have taken Sacrifice of the Martyr. (10 points per round)
Anchoring Aura (Su): The paladin's aura prevents all sorts of dimensional movement and summoning spells from working. No spell that has the keywords Summoning or Calling in their description works within the range of the paladin's aura (his allies are affected by it, too). It also prevents anyone using spells such as Dimensional Door or Teleport to move into or out of the area of the paladin's aura. The paladin must be at least 8th level before taking this power.
Aura of Stillness (Su): The paladin's aura prevents normal movement within its range. Every being starting their round within your aura have their movement halved for one round. In addition to this, if they fail a Will save vs. 10 + half your paladin level + your CHA modifier, they're also slowed for one round. The paladin must be at least 6th level before taking this power.
Aura of Healing (Su): At the beginning of the paladin's every round, all his allies within the range of the Aura heal 1 Hit Point plus 1 Hit Point per five paladin levels he has. The paladin must be at least 6th level before taking this power.
(Or, alternatively, another version...)
Aura of Healing (Su): At the beginning of the paladin's every round, all his allies within the range of the Aura gain Fast Healing equal to the paladin's CHA modifier. he paladin must be at least 12th level before taking this power.
Now, Paladin/Bard is a neat idea...GAAAHHH!!?!?!
WHAT HAVE I CREATED?
The idea of a Paladin Bard has been around ages. King Arthur was one in 1st Ed. Legends & Lore
Just imagine what effect the Charisma 17 req. would have now :-)
A paladin may burn turn undead attempts and/or spell slots to gain more SE attempts. 2 spell levels or 2 TU uses equates to a SE use. This is also a free action. There may be other pathfinder paladin powers that can also be 'burned' but I don't know what they are.Heh.
Now he brings out the big guns...:)How many Turn Undead attempts/day did Kaile have, by the time we went demon-lord hunting?
23 - Divine Quicken is very expensive.
And Lee thinks he couldn't take on the BBEG in the Age of Worms very easily...
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I would rather see "Smite effects" (much like the Rage powers), than specific changes to Smite itself.
Looking through the posts on this thread, a lot of them seem to circumvent or replace some of the features of Divine Bond if the paladin chooses the celetial spirit weapon bond.
Example: Why add the Holy property of Divine Bond to your celestial weapon if it already ignores DR for Evil creatures?
Smite itself should be a straight forward mechanic, much like rage. Extras can be addded, but should have the option of player choice and customization to effectively work.
Changing the Smite mechanic to work for "X rounds per day" like the alternate rage would allow micro-management of Smite as a resource for Smite effects.
I'm almost 100% behind everything you've said. I've spent a while trying out different things with the Paladin, and I think you've just about hit the nail on the head.
Thanks!
Definitely some kind of "overcoming DR" as a natural part of the Smite; I'm thinking something that scales... perhaps as "Good" at 1st level, then "Lawful" at 6th, and all DR at 12th.
A few other people have suggested stuff along these lines. It's logical. Check out the thread here for more thoughts on this and other effects. I think someone has cross-posted them as well.
The bonus to attack helps make sure that you hit (would that bonus apply to confirm critical threats as well?)
Yup
and the damage scales comparatively with Sneak Attack, but only against evil creatures (multiplied in a critical hit?)
Don't think so - IIRC Sneak Attack damage isn't multiplied. Also, SE extra damage works against 'immune to precise damage' creatures like undead.
I don't see the need to specify it as a free action. If we agree that it's a singular attack, why not just say that it functions as part of a standard attack action?
So that it works as part of a full-attack option and AoOs. Before each swing the paladin could nominate a SE attempt. SMITE! SMITE! SMITE! This is handy for those who want a full round of smites, whilst taking advantage of the 'burn abilities' to get extra smites in.
I love the flavour of the concealment/cover negate effect! Obviously the mechanic is fun, but the image of a holy Paladin smashing through a wall to subdue the BBEG hiding on the other side is just great. :)
Me too. I think something like it happened in a Terminator film where Arnie used infrared to spot the T1000 and crashed through the wall to get him. A few more thoughts need to go into this (how much cover can be broken through, how big a hole does it make, etc etc, but the idea is sound - and very cool!)
I also really like the idea of burning Turn Undead or spell slots
Thanks - I originally put down 2 Turns or Spell Slots equal 1 Smite Evil, but I'm open to persuasion on that. I've thought of another as well - burn 5 points of lay on hands (or burn one use of LOH - is that how PFRPG works?) into a SE attempt.
Keep the ideas coming guys - and add to the rider effect thread too!
The idea of a Paladin Bard has been around ages. King Arthur was one in 1st Ed. Legends & Lore.I'll just check in my 144 page copy then...
;P
What? No link to enlighten the masses what you're referring to?
We all know you're as old as time Bob - but we're not :-P
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I would rather see "Smite effects" (much like the Rage powers), than specific changes to Smite itself.
Looking through the posts on this thread, a lot of them seem to circumvent or replace some of the features of Divine Bond if the paladin chooses the celetial spirit weapon bond.
Example: Why add the Holy property of Divine Bond to your celestial weapon if it already ignores DR for Evil creatures?
Smite itself should be a straight forward mechanic, much like rage. Extras can be addded, but should have the option of player choice and customization to effectively work.
Changing the Smite mechanic to work for "X rounds per day" like the alternate rage would allow micro-management of Smite as a resource for Smite effects.
I already went into this on another thread but I'll cover it here too...
Because Divine bond lasts multiple rounds and smite doesn't due to the incredibly limited # of smites you get, the ability to ignore dr for two or three rounds in a combat. Maybe later say 15th level plus you might go without holy if you knew for a fact that it was going to be your only fight in the day. If that wasn't the case though you could have every weapon property that divine bond gives added to smite and it would still not step on the ability to have them for an extended duration and apply to non-evil enemies.
I like the foe of evil ability mentioned earlier; a little less than a ranger's favored enemy ability, but it applies to all evil creatures. I like it, but it's a little more powerful than that. Compare it to a ranger's favored enemy. A ranger that attacks a devil knows its an evil outsider before he attacks; his favored enemy is based on type, which is easy to tell in most circumstances. But the foe of evil ability is based on alignment, which you can't see before you attack. It's like a quickened detect evil; he knows whether someone is evil or not based on the damage he deals. I think I like it, though; it gives a little more information about a creature that other party members can use.
If smite evil is to be kept as is, and it changes to lasting for a full round, the damage is REALLY going to add up. An 11th level paladin with 4 attacks a round (assuming some sort of haste item) can deal an extra 44 points of damage per round with 4 hits. I think it's too much of a power creep. As for the extra abilities applied to the smite evil, I would refine it down to two; with a smite evil attempt, you can add either a targeted dispel magic against the opponent or overcome any DR. The charge would also be held if you missed or the opponent wasn't evil.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I would rather see "Smite effects" (much like the Rage powers), than specific changes to Smite itself.
Looking through the posts on this thread, a lot of them seem to circumvent or replace some of the features of Divine Bond if the paladin chooses the celetial spirit weapon bond.
Example: Why add the Holy property of Divine Bond to your celestial weapon if it already ignores DR for Evil creatures?
So you can do an extra 2d6 damage on every hit to any evil creature.
Seems like a pretty good reason to me.
Smite itself should be a straight forward mechanic, much like rage. Extras can be addded, but should have the option of player choice and customization to effectively work.
Changing the Smite mechanic to work for "X rounds per day" like the alternate rage would allow micro-management of Smite as a resource for Smite effects.
Sure, but part of the point of this thread was to propose what we would do if the frequency of smite was NOT changed. How then might we improve smite WITHIN the confines of it staying as a uses per day power.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I like the foe of evil ability mentioned earlier; a little less than a ranger's favored enemy ability, but it applies to all evil creatures. I like it, but it's a little more powerful than that. Compare it to a ranger's favored enemy. A ranger that attacks a devil knows its an evil outsider before he attacks; his favored enemy is based on type, which is easy to tell in most circumstances. But the foe of evil ability is based on alignment, which you can't see before you attack. It's like a quickened detect evil; he knows whether someone is evil or not based on the damage he deals. I think I like it, though; it gives a little more information about a creature that other party members can use.
If smite evil is to be kept as is, and it changes to lasting for a full round, the damage is REALLY going to add up. An 11th level paladin with 4 attacks a round (assuming some sort of haste item) can deal an extra 44 points of damage per round with 4 hits. I think it's too much of a power creep. As for the extra abilities applied to the smite evil, I would refine it down to two; with a smite evil attempt, you can add either a targeted dispel magic against the opponent or overcome any DR. The charge would also be held if you missed or the opponent wasn't evil.
An 11th level wizard, druid, or cleric can do a bleep of a lot more damage than that, to multiple creatures, without requiring them to be evil. So could a rogue. I personally don't buy the power creep argument, but YMMV.
Also, it's only a de facto detect evil if the DM chooses to tell the PC how much damage they inflict to the monster. The DM is under no more obligation to inform the paladin of extra damage than he is to inform the player of how much or what kind of DR a creature might have, or what net effect occurs when a character is using an unidentified magic weapon.
The player calls out the AC he thinks that he hit and the damage he thinsk that he does. The DM adjusts it as appropriate.
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I think, if you're in any doubt whether the creature you're fighting is evil, you probably wouldn't want to be smiting it.
Furthermore, if you have doubts the creature is evil, you may want to re-think if you need to be fighting it at all (not that neutral NPCs can't be doing wrong, but shouldn't a paladin have more important foes to deal with, like the blackguard who leads them?).
Also, it's only a de facto detect evil if the DM chooses to tell the PC how much damage they inflict to the monster. The DM is under no more obligation to inform the paladin of extra damage than he is to inform the player of how much or what kind of DR a creature might have, or what net effect occurs when a character is using an unidentified magic weapon.
The player calls out the AC he thinks that he hit and the damage he thinsk that he does. The DM adjusts it as appropriate.
I disagree.
Take a look at the standard smite evil ability. It states that "if the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day." If the paladin chooses to smite and hits but does no extra damage, he knows the opponent wasn't evil. But if "the DM chooses to tell the PC how much damage they inflict to the monster", then if he successfully smites an evil creature he doesn't know he's dealt extra damage unless the DM tells him.
How could a paladin train to deal extra damage to an evil creature if they never know when they've hit an evil creature?
Dealing damage is an integral part of D&D combat. If the DM is under no obligation to inform players of the damage they're dealing, a ranger with favored enemy outsider (evil) who hits a devil would have no idea he was dealing extra damage to it, or if a wizard hit a fire-immune creature with a fireball they wouldn't know it didn't hurt them.
Granted, you don't need to tell the players exact numbers, but they need to know whether their abilities are working or not. Otherwise the wizard will keep throwing fireballs at the fire-immune creature and calling out the damage without realizing that he isn't dealing any damage (which doesn't make any sense).
The DM must tell the players whether their attacks are effective or not.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Also, it's only a de facto detect evil if the DM chooses to tell the PC how much damage they inflict to the monster. The DM is under no more obligation to inform the paladin of extra damage than he is to inform the player of how much or what kind of DR a creature might have, or what net effect occurs when a character is using an unidentified magic weapon.
The player calls out the AC he thinks that he hit and the damage he thinsk that he does. The DM adjusts it as appropriate.
I disagree.
Take a look at the standard smite evil ability. It states that "if the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day." If the paladin chooses to smite and hits but does no extra damage, he knows the opponent wasn't evil. But if "the DM chooses to tell the PC how much damage they inflict to the monster", then if he successfully smites an evil creature he doesn't know he's dealt extra damage unless the DM tells him.
How could a paladin train to deal extra damage to an evil creature if they never know when they've hit an evil creature?
Dealing damage is an integral part of D&D combat. If the DM is under no obligation to inform players of the damage they're dealing, a ranger with favored enemy outsider (evil) who hits a devil would have no idea he was dealing extra damage to it, or if a wizard hit a fire-immune creature with a fireball they wouldn't know it didn't hurt them.
Granted, you don't need to tell the players exact numbers, but they need to know whether their abilities are working or not. Otherwise the wizard will keep throwing fireballs at the fire-immune creature and calling out the damage without realizing that he isn't dealing any damage (which doesn't make any sense).
The DM must tell the players whether their attacks are effective or not.
Effective, sure.
Generally effective, yeah probably.
EXACTLY how effective, as in precise number of hit points, no.
To use your fireball example, a DM absolutely should tell the PC if the creature ignores the effect. BUT, the DM needn't necessarily tell the PC WHY it ignores the effect. Could be fire immunity (permanent or temporary, as in the hp soaked up by protection from energy). Could be evasion. Could be you failed to beat its SR (the DM asks you for a caster level check vs. SR but need not tell you whether you beat it).
A DM probably should also tell the player, "the monster seems to resist some of your fire damage," just like he'd tell the player hitting a DR monster "not all of your damage got through."
A DM is under no compulsion at all to tell them exactly how much energy resistance or DR a creature possesses, nor what kind. A good Knowledge skill check may determine the cause. A good Spellcraft check can identify a spell effect that defeats your stuff.
As a clarifying point, please note that the ability being discussed here was not Smite Evil, an active-use power for which you probably would want to have a reasonable certainty your target is evil before using, but my proposed "Foe of Evil" ability, which is a passive, always-on bonus. It also happens to not work vs. evil, but because it is not limited in use you don't necessarily care.
The bonus from FoE is much lower than for smite (+1 damage, +1/5 levels) and there is no bonus to hit. I wouldn't feel at all remiss as a DM in failing to mention the fact that each of a paladin's blows were doing an extra point of damage or two (or even several points at double-digit levels, when hit points are in triple digits for most foes). The paladin is hitting and rolling damage (or missing and not), and can see that the target is being hit and taking damage. They know the general degree of effect. They just don't necessarily know down to the last jot and tittle (just love saying that phrase... it's tittle-ating) whether a small number is added on to the end or not.
All of the above stated, if you wanted to state that the FoE ability would not turn on until a paladin had already used his detect evil HUD, I don't have any particular objection to that either.
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Isn't that what cheap stat-boosters are for?
Fair enough - but cheap isn't so cheap anymore - with PF making it only one mental and one physical item being able to be worn at any given time - sure you can combine multiple ability score enhancements into the same item - but the cost is 50% higher....thus not as cheap as cheap.
Robert
WHOA! Missed that one! Where is it at???
I simply don't understand where you're coming from. Look at it this way. If a paladin hits an evil creature but you don't tell him he's done extra damage because "the DM is under no obligation to inform the paladin of extra damage," how does the paladin know that he has ever smited anything evil? He effectively has a class ability that, as far as he knows, never works! Why would any paladin ever smite evil if they've never seen it work?
What about a ranger? If the DM doesn't have to tell the ranger he's dealt extra damage against his favored enemy, why would he ever take one since he's never seen it work? And what about holy or bane weapons? Or critical hits? Or the flaming or shocking qualities? Using your rule, how are those adjudicated?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I simply don't understand where you're coming from. Look at it this way. If a paladin hits an evil creature but you don't tell him he's done extra damage because "the DM is under no obligation to inform the paladin of extra damage," how does the paladin know that he has ever smited anything evil? He effectively has a class ability that, as far as he knows, never works! Why would any paladin ever smite evil if they've never seen it work?
In the first place, because they can use detect evil, find things that are evil, and smite them. I have proposed elsewhere that DE be made a quicker ability to use in order to better synergize with a paladin's other evil-related class abilities (notably smiting it).
Your statement seems to presuppose that a paladin does not know targets are evil before smiting them. In D&D, lots of creatures are ALWAYS evil (demons, devils, etc.). Lots more are usually evil, which means a statistically significant but very small proportion of that creature type is not evil; odds are pretty darn good that if you attack an orc, ogre, fire giant, red dragon, or whatever, that your smite will work just fine. You know it's evil, you smite it, you see the results, because you already know that it's evil. You see the effects.
In the game world, unless you are an "everything is a moral gray area" DM, you know, the player knows, the character knows, and the orc himself knows that he is Evil. He may think he's "right" and that what he does is for the "good" of himself and/or his community, but that is immaterial to his knowledge of his positioning relative to the cosmological constant that constitutes Evil.
If you don't see the effects, you learn by inference that it turns out it wasn't evil after all, due to the ol' smite fizzle.
The problem, of course, is that not everything is obviously evil. You could also say that everything's creature type is not inherently obvious in a world with illusions and shapechanging, but that's usually a lot more obvious than alignment. A paladin who just goes around smiting evil on everything without having some reasonable certainty of it being evil would probably be very confused about the efficacy of the smite power, because it would seem to operate quite randomly
But with all of the above stated, please take note: I've said this twice, but I'll say it again and hopefully the communication will be clear. In the example I was citing above:
I
Was
Not
Talking
About
Smite
Evil.
As stated previously, I am talking about an entirely separate class ability that need not be "used" at all. It is a passive, always on effect that I terms "Foe of Evil" that was essentially a half-value favored enemy power that worked vs. all evil creatures.
What about a ranger? If the DM doesn't have to tell the ranger he's dealt extra damage against his favored enemy, why would he ever take one since he's never seen it work? And what about holy or bane weapons? Or critical hits? Or the flaming or shocking qualities? Using your rule, how are those adjudicated?
One of several ways:
1. The type of foes being faced are inherently obvious, so it is a moot point.
2. Where #1 is not the case, someone in the party uses a Knowledge skill to identify the creature type being faced. Return to #1 and proceed.
3. Where neither #1 nor #2 are true - that is, the nature of the target is not inherently obvious, and no one in the party can or will use Knowledge or other means to identify the target, you as a DM have three choices, since YOU (the DM) know what the creature is:
a. Screw the player by disallowing the character's use of the class ability. By your reasoning, if a PC didn't KNOW it was a dragon, he couldn't use any dragon-bane, dragon-FavEn, etc. abilities. This = ick to me.
b. Reveal to the player what the creature is automatically upon engaging it in combat. This bypasses #2 and jumps us up to #1 above. Now everyone knows what the target is, and you proceed. This seems to be the effect to which you would object - attacking an evil creature would suddenly reveal it to be evil cuz you get bonuses against it. Oh noez! I don't think it's that big of a deal, but if you want to hold your DM cards close to the vest, then you use...
c. The character gets all of whatever his bonuses are against the creature in question. It doesn't matter if he KNOWS it's a dragon/evil/whatever, the bonuses apply anyway. That said, he also doesn't get any information. He seems strangely competent against the target but doesn't exactly know why.
The choice is up to you. In a situation where the target's nature is unclear and the character has a target-specific ability (like fav em, smite evil, bane weapon, etc.), you have a choice:
a. Negate the ability;
b. Give free information and have the ability work normally; or,
c. Don't give out free information and have the ability work normally.
Where I am coming from is option c.
BTW, I'm not sure what critical hits have to do with the discussion.
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Personally, I would use a combination of the following:
1) A Paladin's weapon is treated as good-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction when smiting.
2) Smiting is possible with any weapon, whether ranged or melee. As a slight variation I'd reduce the effective range of smite to 30 ft. which is also the range for Sneak Attack and Point-Blank Shot. Besides, I recall the Elf Soulborn and Elf Paladin substitution levels from 3.5 offered ranged smiting with a maximum range of 30 ft., so this already has a precedent in 3.5.
3) Smiting works on all attacks made during the round instead of just one. This helps overcome the whiff-factor that comes with missing with smite.
4) Allow for smiting with combat manouvers. I don't see any reason why this shouldn't be the case and I'm quite certain it won't lead into Paladin-chaingun-trippers becoming the order of the day.
I'm down with suggestion 1, 2, 3, and 5 of the OP.
Any hope that they get Detect Evil as a Swift Action to boot?
I've got a general question, one of scope. How far can, or perhaps instead should, the changes to Smite Evil go?
The reworked Pathfinder paladin is, overall, a much improved version of the base 3.5 paladin. The new abilities are great, IMHO, and Holy Champion itself is worth stopping in the class for. Whilst Lay on Hands has some issues when compared to how it worked in the past, for me one of the few things that really needs to be addressed is Smite Evil.
So, what are the base problems with Smite Evil, if it is kept to the x/day mechanic?
1) Too few Smite attempts.
2) Smite does too little damage.
3) Smite attempts are lost on a miss.
LastKnightLeft had a great, simple and straightforward solution to too few Smite attempts - Cha Modifier + 1 Smites at first level. Level dipping isn't really a problem for the paladin. Even a level 19 sorcerer / level 1 paladin still has to act like a paladin and keep to the Code of Conduct to keep his paladin abilities.
The second problem is that Smite attempts do too little damage, especially at lower levels. Bypassing DR is a great way of doing this, keeping the Smite fast and straightforward without adding in extra complexity. Even if it's only an extra point of damage from a level 1 paladin, as Jason Nelson posted earlier, "It's all getting through!" Plus, good or law aligning a weapon is still useful for when the paladin isn't smiting, which will still be most of the time.
Ranged Smites, many people like, I dislike, but limiting it to a 30 foot range as Ratpick suggested seems a good compromise and apparently already has a precedent. Some people have mentioned wanting Smite Evil to start applying to CMB attacks. Do we need this? Will the class work without it? Is the point of smite arguably to reflect a 'holy blow', rather than a 'holy trip' or a 'holy disarm'?
The final problem, Smite attempts being lost on a miss, is also straightforward to fix. A failed Smite attempt isn't lost. This deals with the aforementioned 'whiff' factor.
So, what I propose is something like this:
Smite Evil (Su): A number of times per day, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee, natural or unarmed attack, or a ranged attack of 30ft or less. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. Infused with divine power, all damage resistance possessed by the target is ignored for the purposes of the Smite Evil attempt.
The paladin has a number of uses of this ability per day at 1st level equal to that of her Charisma modifier plus 1. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level (plus Charisma modifier).
Smite Evil attempts are not lost if the attack is missed. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.
It's not a huge change, which is the point. I can't take credit for much of it but is a huge change really needed? Playtesting should be much easier than trying to go through a wholly new mechanic, and backwards compatibility less likely to be tripped up. Non-Pathfinder feats that add damage/dice to Smite Evil attempts or increase the number of smite attempts would still track.
Should the rules for Smite Evil be kept simple, allowing us to focus on the challenge of actually playing a paladin, rather than overcomplicating rules that may not need overcomplicating?
One idea, but many questions...
Chobbly
(sorry about the post length, btw)
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support for a lot of things I suggested a while ago
Wow, that was pretty much exactly what I came up with, the 30ft range is new, but other than that, it looks just like what I was crusading for in the begining.
Okay, those fixes do adress a lot of the problems. But there are a few that truly aren't adressed.
The first is that +level is horribly painstakingly unimpressive for a once per day effect added to a single attack. I haven't fought a single creature yet that has DR as my playtest only now hit level 4, but when i smite even if I hit, its just silly. Smite is litterally the only combat aplicable ability you get till level 5, what I have come to realize is that even with more, which I still support. it still winds up being really sad. Okay I hit with my smite and the enemy is really impressed with the extra three damage, the fighter PAs every round for the same amount while two handed fighting.
The other issue is that it needs to apply to every attack for a round including AoOs not just the single attack to which it applies now.
Honestly right now I am in love with the idea of smite effects being discussed on another thread, I still want all of the changes you mentioned, and I agree that I don't want smite being applied to CMB, but by my playtest, smite needs more than just those fixes, although those fixes do go a long way to fixing some of the disparity of the class and are all still worth crusading for. (Get it? Paladin fixes being crusaded for? Nothing? eh you guys have no sense of humor)