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As I noted in my platest report, I think it's unfortunate that Track, which was a bonus feat for the ranger, has been changed into a simple Survival check. This IMO takes away one of the class's defining freatures and turns it into an everyman skill. Sure, the half level bonus is nice, but it doesn't equate with the secondary class abilities of other core classes (eg. bardic knowledge, fast movement, trapfinding, channel positive energy).
To remedy this, I suggest that we change the track class ability to reflect the ranger's special expertise in woodcraft.
Master Tracker (ex): Rangers are such experts at tracking foes that they can glean information about them just by looking at the trail they leave. Upon making a successful track check to find and follow a trail, a ranger can determine the number and size of creatures she is following. If she exceeds this roll by 5 or more, the ranger learns what type of creatures (eg. small humanoid) left the tracks. If the ranger beats the DC by 10 or more, she also learns what subtype the creatures are (eg. reptilian). Finally, if the ranger beat the track DC by 15 or more, she is able to determine exactly what kinds of creatures she is following (eg. kobolds).
Although this check does not yield much information about the specific abilities of the quarry, it does not require the ranger to have skill ranks in the relevant knowledge skill to identify the tracks. If the ranger successfully identifies the creature being followed, supplimentary knowledge checks can be made to gain further information as normal. If the ranger has ranks in the relevant knowledge skill, add those ranks to the result of the track check.
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Oh! I forgot to mention that I thought this would be a good mechanic for letting a party at least have some idea what they were up against. With the current knowledge skills as I understand them, you have no idea what a creature is if you fail the knowledge check.
Knowing you're tracking 3 medium monstrous humanoids at least gives you an idea of what to expect; even if you don't know whether they're grimlocks or gargoyles.
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I always hated tracking as a feat as it truely is more a skill than a feat. It is just kind of frustrating that someone can have 20 levels in survival but cant track something when the DC is higher than 10. If we need to pull tracking out of survival and make it its own skill I would be for that. Just I hated tracking requiring a feat just to be able to track anything worth while (anything over DC:10). I hate feats/abilities that impose a form of "blindness" on others. Such as Trapfinding. You could have a character that has a +58 modifier to his peception but he cant see that pit trap regardless of how well he rolls because the DC is 21 rather than 20 and he's not a rogue.
I partially agree with you here! I think that Track should exist as a feat, but simply be a bonus to the Survival skill to follow tracks (+5, I would think).
How often has Track been a requirement of a published adventure, and how many DM's have said 'you find the tracks' regardless of who had what skill, or what the roll was, just to keep the adventure moving?
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Interesting ideas. I shall ruminate on them.
As an aside, Track might be going back to a feat that Rangers get for free. It will do a similar thing, but will allow others to take it. This is also more backwards compatible.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Backward compatibility is a huge plus, but I also really like the Monster Tracker idea to give the ranger a boost with the Feat
Requiring a Feat just feels awkward, because if "Survival" includes Hunting (which it does), you presumably need Tracking ability to hunt your quarry. I don't necessarily think it's game-breaking if a Barbarian with equivalent Wisdom is also a decent Survivalist/Hunter/Tracker. At high levels, the half-Level bonus is quite significant, and the Favored Enemy/Favored Terrain bonuses shouldn't be forgotten either. All of those together DO clearly make the Ranger the superior tracker, and while another character can put enough ranks into Survival to be COMPETENT, the Ranger's superior skill will consistently be evident.
If anything, the Survival:Tracking DC table should be further developed to give more uses of high-level Survival Skill, such as being able to discern the origin/destination of a creature you're tracking who gated to/from another Plane. I also don't think it would be uncalled for to give Rangers a FULL Ranger Level bonus to Tracking... It means ALL Rangers will be good at it, and Rangers who put skill points into it every level will be consistently AMAZING at high level - which they SHOULD be, especially given the pre-existing concepts of "Planar Rangers" tracking down their quarry across multiple Planes. Actually, this is very similar to Bards & Perform...
I mentioned this in another thread, but it should also be clarified how the Urban Terrain type intereacts with Ranger Tracking... I.e. does Gather Info function as Tracking, and the Ranger Tracking bonus applies to it, not Survival, in Urban environs...?
I prefer Track as a feat. Not every tracker is a ranger, after all.
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Interesting ideas. I shall ruminate on them.
As an aside, Track might be going back to a feat that Rangers get for free. It will do a similar thing, but will allow others to take it. This is also more backwards compatible.
Why not make the ability to glean the extra information from the tracks part of the track feat? Sure, the cleric with a wisdom of 18 can find and follow tracks in a pinch, but it takes someone with the Track feat to know what they're following. Kinda like a knowledge check, only you're looking at footprints and candy wrappers.
determin(ing) the number and size of creatures she is following... learn(ing) what type of creatures (eg. small humanoid) left the tracks... learn(ing) what subtype the creatures are (eg. reptilian)... determin(ing) exactly what kinds of creatures she is following (eg. kobolds)
All these are the type of thing ANY competent hunter would be able to do, and so shouldn't be limited to a Ranger Class Ability. The Survival skill explicitly says it's used for hunting game, and recognizing tracks and following them is part of hunting.
Requiring a Feat means Barbarians, who get the LEAST Feats of any Class (everyone except the Paladin and Cleric/Druid get SOME Bonus Feats) need to give up one of their few Feats just to be able to hunt effectively (of course, you can side-step it by saying Survival checks to find game aren't "Tracking", but that's absurd, finding game means tracking your prey.) Investing Ranks in Survival is dedication enough. Rangers having a scaling Class Bonus and Favored Terrain/ Enemy Bonuses means they WILL be the best Trackers.
If anything, there just needs to be cool "very high DC" Tracking Checks to let Rangers show their superior Tracking off, like being able to determine the origin/destination Plane of a creature you're tracking who Gates in/out of the Plane you're in. Or being able to guess the emotional state of mind of the people you're tracking (if they're arguing, etc)
I don't think Jason was suggesting putting the ability to track back into the Track feat, but the ranger 1/2 level bonus as the feat. (Could be wrong about that).
I don't see the benefit of a having a feat like that, since it would actually be weaker than or equal to Skill Focus (Survival) for 10 out of the first 13 levels. Would stack of course.
Backwards compatibility is good though.
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I don't think Jason was suggesting putting the ability to track back into the Track feat, but the ranger 1/2 level bonus as the feat. (Could be wrong about that).
I don't see the benefit of a having a feat like that, since it would actually be weaker than or equal to Skill Focus (Survival) for 10 out of the first 13 levels. Would stack of course.
Backwards compatibility is good though.
I think that Track should add +5 to Survival checks to follow tracks. If you wanted to give rangers an edge, you could give it a further +1 per 2 levels of ranger ....
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Requiring a Feat means Barbarians, who get the LEAST Feats of any Class (everyone except the Paladin and Cleric/Druid get SOME Bonus Feats) need to give up one of their few Feats just to be able to hunt effectively (of course, you can side-step it by saying Survival checks to find game aren't "Tracking", but that's absurd, finding game means tracking your prey.) Investing Ranks in Survival is dedication enough. Rangers having a scaling Class Bonus and Favored Terrain/ Enemy Bonuses means they WILL be the best Trackers.If anything, there just needs to be cool "very high DC" Tracking Checks to let Rangers show their superior Tracking off, like being able to determine the origin/destination Plane of a creature you're tracking who Gates in/out of the Plane you're in. Or being able to guess the emotional state of mind of the people you're tracking (if they're arguing, etc)
I would suggest then that ranks in survival allow you to find and follow tracks and get some very basic information (number, size) and the track feat would allow you to get more details. Sort of how you can make an untrained knowledge check for common knowledge, but training is needed for more esoteric information. Is that reasonable?
Right... but what kind of special/esoteric knowledge, exactly?
Why not just implelent very high DCs? Don't SKILL RANKS = "investment in training/practice"?
Every other skill works like this, from Balance for walking on absurd surfaces, to Diplomacy talking your way out of anything.
The DC system currently goes up to 40-50 range DCs, which is EPIC exta-ordinary ability...
Why not just make an appropriately DC'd range of effects for Survival/Tracking? That's what Epic DCs are for.
If the Ranger has a signifigant skill bonus (I don't have a problem with uppping the bonus to equal Full Level instead of Half Level),
that basically means they are the ones who can consistently do very high DC stuff. And sure, maxed WIS Druids who max Survival and take Skill Focus and +2/+2 Feats could ATTEMPT to come CLOSE to them, but it's pretty easy to ensure that Rangers are the best.
A linear range of DCs, with "extra-ordinary" effects possible at the high end (where Rangers rule) is simple and obvious while not forcing clunky limits on the functioning of a Skill Check. Incidentally, I think the arbitrary limits on Perception/Trap Detection are bogus too. Classes that are supposed to be good at something just need larger bonuses, not abritary limits on Skill Functioning to stop other classes from encroaching on their territory. Pathfinder really offers a chance to make the skill system in D&D WORK.
Tracking should be a survival roll.
There should be a feat that lets you do non-standard things at high DCs with a bonus.
Rangers should get this feat for free.
Give it a Wisdom 15 pre-req and allow any other character to take it.
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Tracking should be a survival roll.
There should be a feat that lets you do non-standard things at high DCs with a bonus.
Rangers should get this feat for free.
Give it a Wisdom 15 pre-req and allow any other character to take it.
That "non-standard" thing you can do is what I'm trying to determine. Is identifying a quarry the right way to go? Should it be something else?
PS Which toy robot is the best? My vote is for Animated Leader Class Megatron. :)
These changes sound like absolutely the right way to go.
In earlier editions of the game tracking posed a running problem for
us. The Track Feat, while useful, was really only helpful to those who had a high Survival (or Wilderness Lore, prior) check. These classes, usually Barbarians and Druids, had very limited feat advancement, rarely took it. In the games we played, therefore, only Rangers would practically be able to track.
And not every party had a Ranger. So for DM's such as myself, who enjoy a good wilderness adventure, tracking was something I'd often have to allow anyone with Survival to do simply because it kept the game moving.
With the new Pathfinder Rules, two things have happened in short order in my circle's games. The first is that many players now give their characters Survival (we tend towards wilderness games, as I said). The second is that the players use it to track enemies, identify good ambush areas, etc. This has helped move such adventures along greatly, and actually improved party tactics.
An improved mechanic to identify quarry, whether in terms of a feat or higher DCs would be a great step in the right direction. I would argue against a feat, however, as I don't know if players would take it. Even though feats are easier to come by, there are a great many out there. Many character builds require the player to pick a long combination of feats, and those players would probably be loathe give up a new metamagic trick, weapon attack, or skill boost simply to be able to identify a monster shortly before it attacks them. Add in the inevitable metagaming that surrounds encountering monsters and its usefulness as a feat is diminished.
Instead, I think higher skill DCs to identify a monster or monster type are a good way to go. Rangers should simply have a bonus to Survival for tracking. Alternatively, the Ranger's improved tracking abilities could be tied to their favored enemies, allowing them to track and identify favored enemies at a higher bonus.
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Instead, I think higher skill DCs to identify a monster or monster type are a good way to go. Rangers should simply have a bonus to Survival for tracking. Alternatively, the Ranger's improved tracking abilities could be tied to their favored enemies, allowing them to track and identify favored enemies at a higher bonus.
Favoured enemy grants a +2 to survival already.
A counter to your excellent arguement would be that more cosmopolitan charcters should not know very much about tracking or wilderness survival at all. With the RAW (PF version not SRD) a dwarven cleric of Torag with 0 ranks in survival can still find and follow tracks on firm ground with relative ease (+5 wisdom bonus, taking 10 beats DC15). Does this seem right to you? I think that some sort of specialized training should be required to get anything more out of the skill in this manner.
Survival should handle the basics of getting by in the wild, including stalking and hunting basic prey items, but using the skill to glean specialized knowledge from mere footprints should be beyond the scope of an everyman skill.
I propose that either track be returned to feat status and the ability to get other information from tracks be attached to it, or at the very least be turned into a trained only skill. If the latter happens, the Ranger class ability "Track" should be turned into something a little more special than a mere bonus to a skill roll; perhaps in line with trapfinding or a domain power.
That's all IMO. YMMV and I thank all of you for taking so much interest.
Being trained only is fine, for me...
As Brother mentioned, it's nice for believability and game reasons to let Barbarians and characters who ARE living off the wilderness to have competent tracking functionality.
I just see a certain SIMPLICITY benefit from utilizing one mechanic (linear DC variation) rather than apply arbitrary limits on top of that same mechanic. Level Scaling bonuses (I prefer full level for Rangers), Fav. Terrain & Enemy all conspire to make the Ranger very capable of Epic Tracking DCs. Giving some more Epic DCs for Rangers to apply themselves probably will give them more self-esteem about the value of their skills :-)
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I agree with Brother Willi.
In most of the games I have run, Track is something that I have to fluff off if the party doesn't have a Ranger. The pathfinder rules changed that to fall under the Survival skill, giving everyone a chance without cross-class dipping.
Changing this back, while possibly helpful for backwards compatability, encourages those wilderness based characters (een the Barbarian and the Druid) to dip into Rnager for the free feat. this also goes against the percived mission statement of pathfinder to reward a player for playing a single class character all the way to 20th level. Effectively, a Barbarian or Druid PC would cap out at 19th level if they had any desire to be an effective tracker without blowing one of their few feats.
As a function of the skill everyone wins, but the Ranger remains the master of Tracking thanks to the Track class feature, with bonuses for Favored Enemy (vs. species enemy) and Favored Terrain (in certain environments). Raising the DCs does not in any significant way hamper the Ranger.
But hey, I have also stated that Trapfinding should be reassigned to the Perception or Disable Device skill, with Rogue gaining a class-based (Trapfinding) that STILL makes them the master of the skill.
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My vote is, merge tracking into survival, and remove the DC 10 cap. Give rangers a blanket +5 bonus to use of survival for tracking, and leave it at that. That would be my hand-waving of the situation, simply because I don't see a lot of abuses to it and it's a simple mechanism to keep Rangers as the "good trackers".
That's how it works right now, if I understand the pathfinder Beta rules correctly.
It seems to me that most of the people posting to this thread (thanks BTW) are in favour of keeping track a function of the survival skill. Assuming that part is in agreement, what are your thoughts on the mechanic I proposed for identifying creatures based on their tracks? From PM, I know Archade thinks the DC should be higher, and I think he's got me convinced, but what does everyone else think?
[W]hat are your thoughts on the mechanic I proposed for identifying creatures based on their tracks? From PM, I know Archade thinks the DC should be higher, and I think he's got me convinced, but what does everyone else think?
It seems to be a logical step for the skill. The only concern that comes to my mind is a "realism" question; whether the tracking character could identify a creature they had never encountered before. Currently in the games I play, our modus operandi is to have the tracker, after a successful Survival check, make a corresponding Knowledge(whatever) check to see if (s)he knows what kind of creature made these tracks. It works well and rewards appropriate knowledge skills.
Nonetheless, I see the value in having that all rolled into Survival. Perhaps a check equal to the Track DC +5 identifies the creature's type, while a check equal to the Track DC +10 identifies the creature itself (provided the character could identify the creature)? This way it remains easy to identify something tromping through the mud, but even a higher level ranger couldn't identify what was walking over solid rock prior to the big rainstorm.
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Do you think that knowledge skills should be tied to track to help "unlock" the higher levels of information? Maybe if we made it still possible to ID tracks, but made it beneficial to have ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill.
Say for making basic success in find/follow tracks, you get to know how many and what size of creature you're following. That's all that's really needed in most adventures where some sort of tracking skill is needed in order to continue the adventure.
If you beat the DC by 10, you get the type/subtype, and +20 you get the specific creatures. If you have ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill, you add those to your result. Obviously, the DM would have to do the additions for you to avoid metagaming.
How's that sound? Good, meh, or utter mind-shattering madness? Oh, please choose the madness. I need the company!
That idea sounds very good to me. I've already been on the record as against Track as a feat, as it is too limited to make it a good choice. I feel the same is true of a feat that lets you identify your quarry with track.
This system, on the other hand, is in keeping with the other skill systems (the higher you roll, the more you know). I haven't crunched the numbers on the +10/+20 numbers as the threshold for identifying the type/name of the creature, but that can be hashed out with simple math. The relation with Knowledge skills could be akin to the synergy bonus concept: For example, if you have ranks in Knowledge(Nature) you get a +2 bonus to track (or just identify the quarry) animals, magical beasts, humanoids, etc. At 10 Ranks, the bonus goes up to +4.
Thus, as an example, a dragon-hunting fighter could have Survival and Knowledge(Arcana). The fighter could track any quarry, but would be exceptionally good at tracking dragons. This fits with the build. A ranger of equal level and ranks in survival would still be better at tracking (thanks to their class feature), but the ranger wouldn't be necessary.