Spear, Quarterstaff, Sling... all underrepresented, all given weak stats for their relative merits. Mostly because they aren't as sexy as the sword and the bow :(
Good luck, I'd love to see these weapons get a little help.
Hear, Hear!
At least the Quarterstaff let's you do Trip Maneuvers,
I have never under stood why Spears don't let you do that (I'm not even talking about BONUSES)
I'd like to see the Trip Maneuver added to the Spear's capabilities, and also allow it's "Set vs. Charge" Double Damage
(which I think I NEVER have seen in practice) also apply to charging WITH a Spear (it's the same Kinetic Energy, same Weapon...!)
As well, since we have the Greatsword, Greataxe, and Great Hammer (Earthbreaker, in Pathfinder), why not a Great Spear?
I actually adopted a DOUBLE Greatspear (exotic weapon) as my main weapon for a Barbarian character I'm running in a Beta test/Golarion PbP game (here, though the DM also is allowing me to do Trip Attacks with it.)
On the Craft side of things, it doesn't really make sense that someone who can craft Bows & Arrows CAN'T make a Spear, even though they're culturally more appropriate, and essentially identical in basic construction (Arrows/Spears). I think that Spears (and Quarterstaffs, Clubs) would make sense being part of the same Craft Skill as Bows & Arrows... They could ALSO be part of Craft(Weaponry), but does it really make sense that for a tribe of Barbarians to be able to Craft Spears for Hunting, they also need to know to forge Scimitars and Crossbows?
At least the Quarterstaff let's you do Trip Maneuvers,
Huh?
First and foremost the lance and spear should be merged together. That thing presented in 3.5 PHB is a tournament weapon designed NOT to harm preferably. Heh, if it was solid wood then the rider would have some real trouble handling it.
The shorter spear variants should be allowed to be used as a quarterstaff as well. We're talking about a piece of wood with one pointy end after all. For longer spears I'd place penalties on staff-like use. 0 for shortspear, -2 for spear, -4 for longspear (perhaps allowing the people trained with martial and exotic weapons to use additional bonses?)
What about giving certain weapons separate entries in simple and martial sections? or perhaps adding a feat that would allow the spear-fighter to use spear with higher damage dice (medium spear = 1d10 damage...).
And with the readied action against the charge you should be actually interrupting the charge completely upon hit IMO. (perhaps any movement if the AoO comes to play)
At least the Quarterstaff let's you do Trip Maneuvers,Huh?
Agreed, que?
If I recall from vague lessons of ancient weaponry, the polearm (including spears, halberds, glaives, etc.) was an infantry weapon, used at a time when mounted combateers had a great advantage.
You could set a pointy polearm (I am of course using the technical terminology ;) ) like a spear against a horse's charge--this is already accounted for in the game. It's possible perhaps this should also increase the DC to negate a hit to a mount if the rider has Mounted Combat (generally I think the Ride DCs are far too low anyway, but that's another discussion). This should not be an easy thing to dodge.
What ISN'T accounted for is using polearms with hooks on them to dismount a cavalryman from his horse. I'd say that these particular polearms should get an additional +2 to either "trip" a rider off of his horse (stacks with normal trip bonus). Alternatively, if this makes the weapons too powerful for martial weapons, either make them exotic (as most multi-purpose weapons are) or create a "anti-mounted-combat" feat that allows you to do this with appropriate weapons.
As for spears and phalanxes, I absolutely agree that there perhaps should be some kind of Feat tree (or if Paizo ever uses the Teamwork Ability concept) that for multiple Spear-and-Shield wielders, they can band together to make an even better set against a charge, and also to deflect arrows with their shields (the make-a-wall-of-shields manuever).
WHAT ABOUT
Shortspear 1 gp 1d4 1d6 ×2 20 ft. 3 lb. Piercing*
Longspear4 5 gp 1d6 1d8 ×3 — 9 lb. Piercing**
*..when used as a marital weapon it may be used to set a charge and proform a trip.
**. When used as a martial weapon it my be set to charge, used to preform trip and used one handed
I've been using a simple house rule in my games:
A character may use the “butt” end of a polearm as a quarterstaff to fight as though it were a double weapon. If the character is not proficient with the polearm he takes the same penalties even if he chooses the butt end as the primary weapon. Polearms with reach require an exotic weapon proficiency feat in order to use the butt end (i.e. without the feat the character take a –4 penalty to attack roll with the butt end).
It doesn't address everything but does give a nice boost to spear/polearm fighters.
You recall incorrectly, or at least skewed.
More that I was just thinking of a different time period than you were. You are correct of course that the spear in particular is a very, very old weapon. I apologize for unclear wording. (I should have not used "ancient" but pointed to certain historical eras for what I was referring to)
The Japanese even developed specialized man-catchers and robe-entanglers specifically designed to help feudal-era police capture kimono-wearing criminals.
That's why I suggested that certain polearms be allowed to be used to dismount riders.
While a single spear might not stop a charging horseman even if planted against the charge, the historical use is a mass of spears.
Also why I suggested feats or Teamwork abilities for phalanx tactics.
In case you didn't get it above, when you plant your spear against a cavalry charge, you're aiming for the mount
Which is why I suggested the spear-planting should raise the DC to negate a hit to your mount when your enemy is using the Mounted Combat feat.
Thanks for agreeing with me, even if you felt inclined for some reason to frame it as an argument.
I'd like to see the Trip Maneuver added to the Spear's capabilities, and also allow it's "Set vs. Charge" Double Damage
(which I think I NEVER have seen in practice) also apply to charging WITH a Spear (it's the same Kinetic Energy, same Weapon...!)
As well, since we have the Greatsword, Greataxe, and Great Hammer (Earthbreaker, in Pathfinder), why not a Great Spear?I actually adopted a DOUBLE Greatspear (exotic weapon) as my main weapon for a Barbarian character I'm running in a Beta test/Golarion PbP game (here, though the DM also is allowing me to do Trip Attacks with it.)
The "set vs. charge" is difficult to implement, I've found, simply because it requires a ready action. Most players of combat-monsters (ftr/2w-style ranger/barbarian) seem to prefer the "charge into combat on my initiative" style of play...unless a group of NPCs is using spears and obviously not taking action, in which case they automatically assume they are readying vs. a charge and simply advance and attack instead.
As for using double damage with a spear charge, the difference is that in the instance of readying, you are bracing the spear against the ground, essentially making it fixed against the force of the target, so all that energy is applied. When charging with a spear, that fixed point isn't the case. A target could deflect the path of the spear with a shield or weapon, lessening its force upon impact.
As for the double greatspear, how exactly would you be able to use both ends of the weapon against a single opponent? It makes an intriguing option when you have enemies at a distance (on two opposite sides, for example) but trying to swing something that long around quickly enough to two-weapon fight against a single opponent seems impossible.
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As for the double greatspear, how exactly would you be able to use both ends of the weapon against a single opponent? It makes an intriguing option when you have enemies at a distance (on two opposite sides, for example) but trying to swing something that long around quickly enough to two-weapon fight against a single opponent seems impossible.
How do you use a quarterstaff as a double weapon? Use of both ends of the pole is certainly part of spear martial use.
My personal question, as someone who practices spear forms, is why the spear is only a piercing weapon, and not piercing/slashing like the dagger. Use of the spear as dagger on stick is not at all uncommon within common spear use forms. If you look at the japanese yari, the zulu iklwa, or the chinese qiang the weapon and the drills practiced with them are designed to use both slashing and thrusting strikes.
What I like for the spear is
Short Spear 1d4 1d6 x2 10ft Piercing Simple
Long Spear 1d6 1d8 x2 Simple Reach
Short Spear 1d4 1d6 19-20/x2 10ft Slashing or Piercing Martial
Long Spear 1d6/1d4 1d8/1d6 x2 Slashing or Piercing/Blunt Martial *
*A Long Spear used as a double weapon has 5ft reach. As a swift action you can shift from using the Long Spear as a double weapon to using the Long Spear as a reach weapon.
Too much?
I agree that Spear should have charge and set vs. charge bonus. I agree quarterstaffs should be looked at but... should this be part of the Equipment and Description be discussed on 8-Dec to 14-Dec?
How strict are the Paizo team for keeping on schedule? Will we have to reports during Dec?
I like the ideas some have posted here,
re: granting certain "enhanced" capabilities to using Spears, Quarterstaffs, etc,
if the wielder is proficient in Martial Weapons.
But, yes, this should wait until the Equipment Chapter...
(I WAS waiting, but when I saw this topic, that I had already written myself a note on for when the Equipment Chapter comes up, I couldn't resist :-)
How do you use a quarterstaff as a double weapon? Use of both ends of the pole is certainly part of spear martial use.
It was the word "greatspear" that threw me. I was automatically picturing a longspear, which would be entirely too unweildy to be an effective double weapon, or whirled about like a quarterstaff.
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At least the Quarterstaff let's you do Trip Maneuvers,Huh?
I think I know what Quandary is talking about here. Sometime back I asked why is it that the quarterstaff doesn't have a bonus when used to trip and someone official said that it wouldn't be too big of an extra to give to the staff.
In my mind, before you can use any polearm effectively, you have to have some knowledge of staff and spear work. So the quarterstaff should be the root of the polearm tree. The next step up should be the spear(s).
At least the Quarterstaff let's you do Trip Maneuvers,Huh?I think I know what Quandary is talking about here. Sometime back I asked why is it that the quarterstaff doesn't have a bonus when used to trip and someone official said that it wouldn't be too big of an extra to give to the staff.
In my mind, before you can use any polearm effectively, you have to have some knowledge of staff and spear work. So the quarterstaff should be the root of the polearm tree. The next step up should be the spear(s).
This whole discussion is making me nostalgic for GURPS. Oh how I wish I could get my current group to play it sometimes. In Gurps, as far as using melee weapons are concerned, there are 4 types - balanced (daggers, swords, clubs, sai, etc...), unbalanced (axes, hammers, maces, flails, picks, etc...), staffs and spears. If you wish to be able to use spears, you must first be able to use staffs. And even if you have not trained in spears, you can use them fairly effectively, with a -2 penalty, as long as you are trained to a certain level with staffs.
Oh how elegant it all is. If you are especially well trained at swinging axes, why should swinging a hammer be any more difficult for you? A hammer is just an axe without a blade. I may be a little off on the categories, like maybe the flail has its own category, grouped together with nunchucku, segmented staffs and the like.
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I think I know what Quandary is talking about here. Sometime back I asked why is it that the quarterstaff doesn't have a bonus when used to trip and someone official said that it wouldn't be too big of an extra to give to the staff.
Except it does not let you do trip maneuvers at all.
Unless a weapon says you can trip with it in the description, you cannot use it to perform the trip maneuver.A rather silly rule if you ask me, but that is supposed to be a balancing mechanism.