Like above, you deflect the attack with your shield. Avoiding pits and falling damage, though, is hard for me to accept.
What, the edge of the shield catching on the lip of the pit and keeping you from falling in doesn't quite do it? Yeah, I could see that maybe "save for half" Ref effects would be affected, from a simulation standpoint. But it's easier to remember, and vastly easier to record on a character sheet, a straight bonus to Reflex saves.
|
The Reflex problem seems simple enough - just have all shields grant partial cover to anyone with a Improved Shield Defense feat. That is +2 AC and +1 Reflex saves. Debatable whether to also negate attacks of opportunity for wielders and opponents alike.
The system is already in the game with Tower Shields (which need some love anyway, like granting Total Cover as a swift action with this feat).
|
Yeah, I could see that maybe "save for half" Ref effects would be affected, from a simulation standpoint. But it's easier to remember, and vastly easier to record on a character sheet, a straight bonus to Reflex saves.
Agree 100%. In the end, the best rules strike a balance between simulation and easy-to-use.
I don't like touch AC for shields, since certain abilities are based upon discharge upon touch...shocking grasp for instance.
I DO like double BASE shield AC for refensive, and tripling BASE shield AC for Full Defense
Ah that was the entire point of granting shield bonus to touch. It is way too easy to get a melee type with a touch attack.
This is true, but it's also true that circumstance-specific save bonuses are already a common feature of the game. So you'd only be adding one more to the list, rather than adding a whole new category of stuff to keep track of. When I have to make a saving throw, it's already a case of "what's my base save, and do I have any relevant bonuses?".
Wait... I think I'm lost... when one of the players at your table needs to make a save, he/she always starts with the base save, then thinks through all the individual modifiers? In my experience, we do that when the buffs, etc. are applied, and from then on just look at the final bonus until the numbers change (through dispelling, end of duration, or whatever), at which point we jot a new number down. If there are only one or two bonuses, it's no big deal either way, but when you get to even medium levels, there are sometimes 3-4 or more of them.
It irks me that fighters now get a bonus to Will saves -- but only againt fear -- which makes a whole new notation and footnote to the "saves" section to keep track of. It's as annoying as the races that get a bonus to Perception rolls, but only for taste and hearing or whatever, and then they have a familiar that provides a different bonus to sight, but only if it's cloudy outside on a Thursday. That kind of stuff adds a slight amount of verisimilitude, but at the cost of bogging down the game in "sometimes, but maybe not" propositions. To me, it isn't worth it -- and I'm a big simulationist, when it comes to gaming.
|
|
Alright, how about this for an idea for improving shields.
*A shield can reduce the multiplier of a critical hit by one step. All damage then is treated as a sunder attempt (without drawing an attack of opportunity). If the amount of damage done exceeds what is required to destroy the shield, then any extra damage is dealt to shield bearer. Otherwise, the shield gains the broken condition.
*A shield can be used to intercept ranged touch attacks, taking the brunt of the attack. Add the shield's AC bonus on ranged touch attacks.
*As far as a Reflex bonus goes, I think the ideas of giving half of the shield's AC bonus would work pretty well. However, the shieldbearer should need to be prepared to hide behind the shield. So, he doesn't get the benefit when flat-footed.
Director of Games
|
Interesting ideas everyone. I am keen to make the "sword and board" fighter types a bit more appealing. I am not 100% convinced that there is any one perfect answer to this, but there are some intriguing directions suggested here. Feats might be a good way to go, especially considering there are so few for a shield user, and these already work within the framework of the game.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
(Edit: Hey, my 1,000 post. Gee, that seemed to take a while. Although it has sped up quite a bit here over the past few months. Moving on.)
Well, I feel as if fighting with a shield should give you a significant defensive advantage. Currently, it doesn't. It's +1 to AC, and then you could get a magic shield if you wanted to spend the money which you usually don't really have because you spent it on armor and your weapon. It should probably give you a bit more than that to start with and feats boosting the AC benefit should be pretty efficient. Perhaps they could add to Reflex saves or something.
|
Interesting ideas everyone. I am keen to make the "sword and board" fighter types a bit more appealing. I am not 100% convinced that there is any one perfect answer to this, but there are some intriguing directions suggested here. Feats might be a good way to go, especially considering there are so few for a shield user, and these already work within the framework of the game.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I suppose my thoughts are the same as everyone else's here.
To sum it up, instead of going for the higher damage options the shield user is opting to increase his defenses to stay in the fight longer. Make the "sword & board" fighter better at it.
Some ideas(mostly repeats):
- Increase the dodge bonus for Total defense to +6 if the defender is using a shield. Increase the dodge bonus for fighting defensively to +3 when using a shield. Allow this to stack with the bonus from acrobatics.
- Allow shield users to go active with defense and spend a move action to block(increase DR)or parry(miss chance) a single attack. Add feats that make a character better at it, expand the number of attacks he can attempt to negate or increase the size of weapons he can counter.
- Add the fighter's Armor Training bonus to the shield also, thus counting twice.
- Add feats for using the shield to increase DR against all attacks.
I really don't like feats that would specifically target countering critical hits though. Higher defenses would already reduce their frequency.
Sam
I'm down with Touch AC.
I'm also in favor of counting it vs. Reflex saves, but only Area-effect spells that allow a save for half damage. There are many instances that spring to mind where the shield should hurt a reflex save rather than help it.
|
|
Interesting ideas everyone. I am keen to make the "sword and board" fighter types a bit more appealing. I am not 100% convinced that there is any one perfect answer to this, but there are some intriguing directions suggested here. Feats might be a good way to go, especially considering there are so few for a shield user, and these already work within the framework of the game.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing(Edit: Hey, my 1,000 post. Gee, that seemed to take a while. Although it has sped up quite a bit here over the past few months. Moving on.)
Just out of curiosity what are your thoughts on the increase to AC for small and large shields so that a buckler isn't better than a small shield?
I totally agree with adding shield AC bonus to touch AC - either with a feat or without (if it's a feat you should add it to Ref saves and other stuff in the bargain). I think it's pretty "blah" that all the shield feats are essentially offensive and not defensive in nature (bash, slam, master).
The reason I'm not sure it should be a feat is that without anyone having any feats, the rules make two-handed way better. Once you add the feats the gap just gets worse and worse.
Especially with Overhand Chop in the mix - that is a nice feat, our party fighter was getting a lot of use out of it last session, but it essentially makes weapon and shield a very untenable style.
Other ideas - as shields are a more active, not passive, defense, perhaps they should let you add something besides the flat +2 on (that also scales terribly). How about... Half or 1/3 your BAB? Or an ability mod, STR maybe? I like cueing off the BAB as it scales. Sure, if you do 1/3 BAB it's a +6 at level 20, but the two hand guy is dropping two metric handfuls of dice when he hits at that level, and AC is often not a meaningful impediment to hitting in high level play... I'd say "base shield bonus plus 1/3 BAB" would be good, not overpowered, but bring sword and shield back to a semi legit option, then add feats to add to touch attack/reflex save, and add on from there so that it's something for a fighter who wants to have a defensive aspect to them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Feats might be a good way to go, especially considering there are so few for a shield user, and these already work within the framework of the game.
Thoughts?
From our playtest games, based on some ideas from this board:
Shield Block
Prereq: Shield Prof.
When using a shield, your shield bonus to AC is raised by 1 point.
Shield Guard
Prereq: Shield Block feat, BAB 4+
When using a shield you gain a protective percentage miss
chance against all melee and ranged attacks (but not touch
attacks). This percentage chance is equal to 9%. It
increases to 12% when fighting defensively or using the
Expertise feat. It increases to 15% when using the total
defense action.
Improved Shield Guard
Prereq: Shield Guard feat, BAB 8+
Your protective percentage miss chance provided by the
Shield Guard feat increases to 15%. It increases to 20%
when fighting defensively or using the Expertise feat.
It increases to 25% when using the total defense action.
Greater Shield Guard
Prereq: Improved Shield Guard feat, BAB 12+
Your protective percentage miss chance provided by the
Improved Shield Guard feat increases to 21%. It
increases to 28% when fighting defensively or using
the Expertise feat. It increases to 35% when using the
total defense action.
Master's Shield Guard
Prereq: Greater Shield Guard feat, BAB 16+
Your protective percentage miss chance provided by the
Greater Shield Guard feat increases to 27%. It
increases to 36% when fighting defensively or using
the Expertise feat. It increases to 45% when using the
total defense action.
Shield Cover
Prereq: Shield Prof.
When using a shield, you add your shield AC bonus to your reflex save.
This effect stacks with cover bonuses.
Improved Shield Cover
Prereq: Shield Cover feat
When using a shield, allies treat any space you occupy and any
adjacent space you threaten as one quarter cover. The maximum
number of allies that can benefit from this feat is equal to
1/2 your BAB. This feat cannot be used with a reach weapon.
Nb. These feats all say "when using a shield", a buckler does not count!
Apologies for any bad spellings or typos, this was copy/pasted straight from notepad. So far, so good. This is working for us quite well. It takes a considerable investment for anyone other than a fighter to do it, but it is possible for them to grab a slice of the shield pie to varying degrees. And since miss chances don't stack with each other, this hasn't broke the game so far. The limit on Improved Shield Cover is to stop the smart a$$ with an ogre (or other large sized PC) getting too much more for their money.
Peace,
tfad
I came up with a few things that should help Sword and Boarders some what.
________________________________
Two Weapon Style
You are adept at wielding two weapons in a more brutal manor than with the two weapon fighting feat. You are not too concerned about getting specific points for maximum damage but rather raw damage from hitting things hard.
Preq: 17 Dex, 13 Str, +1 base attack bonus
Benefit: The user of this feat gains an additional attack with their off hand weapon for ever attack they have from the increase in their base attack bonus. So when your base attack reaches +6, +12, and +18 you get an additional attack at the lower base attack bonus attack. Attacking once with both your primary and off hand weapon is a standard action. Making more attacks requires a full round action.
Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are also reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 3 and the one for your off hand lessens by 7. There is no modification for wielding two light weapons. The extra off hand attacks gained from this feat are incapable of dealing extra damage, and damage dice, from precision based attacks. This includes such as Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, skirmish, insightful Strike, elegant Strike, and other bonus damage that requires the target to be vulnerable to critical hits. If they gain the ability to deal precision based attacks to these targets they do not gain the ability to deal extra damage with their off hand attacks.
Special: Two Weapon Style counts as two weapon fighting feats when they match the base attack bonus to their two weapon fighting equivalents for all feats, prestige classes, etc, with the exception of Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Two Weapon Fighting Feats. Example: If you have a base attack bonus of +6, you qualify as having improved two weapon fighting feat for all purposes such as feats, prestige classes, etc.
Shield Trickster
Using a shield you find better ways to perform specific combat maneuvers and optimizing on the cover and protection a shield grants.
Requirements: Base Attack +5, Improved Shield Bash, and ether Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Grapple, or Improved Disarm.
Benefit: While attempting a combat maneuvers with a shield, you gain a +2 on each attempt you make to bull rush, overrun, disarm or grapple check. This works with a shield being used only. This bonus increases by +1 for every attack past the first that you gained from an increasing base attack bonus you have.
Special: You can not take this feat multiple times to have it apply to a separate combat maneuver. If have more than one improved combat maneuver listed in the requirements, or you later obtain one of those feats, the effects of this feat applies automatically
Shield Block
TfaD, love your shield feats, man. I'd personally round the 9% to 10%, and make the 12 into 15, etc. -- so that (a) you could just throw another d20 for it, and (b) because numbers like 9% are a lot harder to remember, and in actual play, probably no one will notice the 1% difference (unless of course you've got a bunch of Vegas-banned card-counting MIT students at your table!)
I agree with many ideas, especially...
buckler = +1 AC
light shield = +2 AC
heavy shield = +3 AC
tower shield = +4 AC
Shield bonus apply to touch AC instead of flat-footed AC.
Shield bonus apply to reflex save against spells with an area of burst, cone and line
Include a few feats improving shield defense beyond flat AC enhancement.
Also, Pathfinder has more flexible rules about cover than 3.5, conveniently on a 4 level scale model. Shield could provide cover rather than shield bonus to AC.
'findel
TfaD, love your shield feats, man. I'd personally round the 9% to 10%, and make the 12 into 15, etc. -- so that (a) you could just throw another d20 for it, and (b) because numbers like 9% are a lot harder to remember, and in actual play, probably no one will notice the 1% difference (unless of course you've got a bunch of Vegas-banned card-counting MIT students at your table!)
I'm glad you like them. I follow your posts, so that's a compliment that means something to me. *closet Kirth fan* :D
The reason they're set at those percentages is to keep the other defense actions where we want them. If you round up the lower ones, you've got to round up the higher ones - which starts to have an effect at the table. Either that or you don't round up the higher ones and then there's little gap between defending and attacking. Or you have to throw the mathematical progression out of the window. Not something we wanted.
I post a lot of our house rules about different places and something people always say is "round up the percentages - I can't remember that!" and "round up the percentages - I can't be bothered to roll a d%, now I can't roll a d20!" and so on. It always surprises me. I'm thinking of revisiting some of those old 'no one loves a d12' jokes and replacing the d12 with a d%. ;p
Please, use, steal, adapt, change, enjoy!
Peace,
tfad
There are many good ideas in this thread (and well thought out countervailing arguments).
At the risk of accidentally excluded other solid ideas, my favourite is the application of the Shield bonus to Reflex saves for burst, cones and lines.
The warrior who bravely stands against a pummelling blast of dragon's breath is a classic scene in fantasy artwork. He's always worse for wear, but he comes through, partly in thanks to his trusty shield.
This simple mechanic captures that perfectly. It might not be enough to fix sword and board disparity, but it's a nice touch.
*(No originality claimed - it's a 'me too' post.)
Shield Block
Prereq: Shield Prof.
When using a shield, your shield bonus to AC is raised by 1 point.Shield Guard
Prereq: Shield Block feat, BAB 4+
When using a shield you gain a protective percentage miss
chance against all melee and ranged attacks (but not touch
attacks). This percentage chance is equal to 9%. It
increases to 12% when fighting defensively or using the
Expertise feat. It increases to 15% when using the total
defense action.Improved Shield Guard
Prereq: Shield Guard feat, BAB 8+
Your protective percentage miss chance provided by the
Shield Guard feat increases to 15%. It increases to 20%
when fighting defensively or using the Expertise feat.
It increases to 25% when using the total defense action.Greater Shield Guard
Prereq: Improved Shield Guard feat, BAB 12+
Your protective percentage miss chance provided by the
Improved Shield Guard feat increases to 21%. It
increases to 28% when fighting defensively or using
the Expertise feat. It increases to 35% when using the
total defense action.Master's Shield Guard
Prereq: Greater Shield Guard feat, BAB 16+
Your protective percentage miss chance provided by the
Greater Shield Guard feat increases to 27%. It
increases to 36% when fighting defensively or using
the Expertise feat. It increases to 45% when using the
total defense action.
This seems a bit too little for as many feats you have hear. I would think that a paladin would probably want to use a shield as well. Could you maybe cut it down or redistribute the bonuses to 3 feats?
While the idea of shields granting cover is neat I think it might be to much of a change for most games. I definitely think you should lose your shield AC when flatfooted, that's how we play it now and it makes a certain amount of sense.
I would like shield users to have a bit of variety, I was thinking a feat like:
Skillfull Block
Pre-reqs : (Some Shield Feat), Combat Reflexes
Shield bonus is added to your defensive CMB. Additionally you get a +4 Shield bonus to AC when you are the target of an Attack of Opportunity.
This lets a shield user be more resiliant against special attacks and lets the shield user be a bit more daring because it lessens the risk for trying special maneuvers. Encouraging Fighters to do more in a round then just swing their swords makes for a more lively game IMO.
This seems a bit too little for as many feats you have hear. I would think that a paladin would probably want to use a shield as well. Could you maybe cut it down or redistribute the bonuses to 3 feats?
If you cut it down to 3 feats, either the feats do too much (keeping the current maximum progression), or they do too little (capping off earlier). Our playtests bore this one out, certainly for our group. Also, the miss chance is balanced against level as well. 9% - 15% is too much at level 1, hence the BAB 4+ requirement. Finally the feats are scaled by BAB - there are more of them so even a wizard or other low BAB class can actually progress more than one step along the chain. Shield love should be available to everyone.
If you want to shorten the chain, my advice would be to remove shield block as a prerequisite/first step, before messing with the percentages. It took a while to get them right! That said, what works for me and my group won't necessarily work for yours, so houserule away.
And yes, our Paladins(!) do like these feats. :D
Peace,
tfad
I definitely think you should lose your shield AC when flatfooted, that's how we play it now and it makes a certain amount of sense.
Yes, I thought this is the case, RAW/RAI. It's certainly how we play it. I suppose, for clarity, I should've posted that none of those feats I cooked up can be used when flat footed.
tfad
I don't like touch AC for shields, since certain abilities are based upon discharge upon touch...shocking grasp for instance.
I DO like double BASE shield AC for refensive, and tripling BASE shield AC for Full Defense
Shocking grasp grants a +3 to hit anyone in metal armor (or with a metal shield). That neatly negates the shield bonus. Touch AC is so low, that most mages have no trouble hitting with a touch or ray spell.
A hobgoblin warrior in studded leather with a light shield would have a Touch AC of 12 with the proposed change (instead of 11).
|
|
I don't like touch AC for shields, since certain abilities are based upon discharge upon touch...shocking grasp for instance.
I DO like double BASE shield AC for refensive, and tripling BASE shield AC for Full Defense
Shocking grasp grants a +3 to hit anyone in metal armor (or with a metal shield). That neatly negates the shield bonus. Touch AC is so low, that most mages have no trouble hitting with a touch or ray spell.
A hobgoblin warrior in studded leather with a light shield would have a Touch AC of 12 with the proposed change (instead of 11).
And if he has a wooden shield it should block the shocking grasp because wood isn't a good conducter of electricity, so I've got to side with thraxus on this one.
I follow your posts, so that's a compliment that means something to me.
Wow... I try to be fairly reasonable, but I often feel as if I totally fall flat. I really appreciate your boost.
Back on-topic: I see what you mean about rounding up/down. I kind of understand a later comment re: 3 vs. 4 feats... but then again, you have the playtesting on your side, which gives your opinion on the subject a lot more weight than anyone else's. I'll have to try some of these out and see how they work.
Thanks again.
I'll have to try some of these out and see how they work.
Let us know how it plays out if you do. Like I said above, what works for us isn't going to necessarily work for other groups. I know that I don't have problem players, looking to exploit every loop hole, also. But that's all okay - it's the reason why houserules exist!
Re: Kirth-awesomeness, let's move along shall we? My man-crush is starting to make me blush and the wife's a mite suspicious.... ;p
Peace,
tfad
|
|
I agree with many ideas, especially...
buckler = +1 AC
light shield = +2 AC
heavy shield = +3 AC
tower shield = +4 ACShield bonus apply to touch AC instead of flat-footed AC.
Shield bonus apply to reflex save against spells with an area of burst, cone and line
Include a few feats improving shield defense beyond flat AC enhancement.
Also, Pathfinder has more flexible rules about cover than 3.5, conveniently on a 4 level scale model. Shield could provide cover rather than shield bonus to AC.
'findel
Actually I'm of the opinion if you raise the bonus on light and Heavy, you need to raise the bonus of Tower to +5! As I have previously stated - if the tower shield is still going to impose a -2 penalty to attacks and require a specific feat to use it, it should be two points better of AC than the highest shield you can use without such drawbacks.
And for the record, the Tower Shield SHOULD incur those penalties since it can still provide cover when so applied.
Robert
|
|
How about this?
Shield Parry
Prereq: Shield Proficiency, BAB+1
Benefit: Once per round, as an Immediate action, you can substitute your Shield Parry score for your armor class. Your Shield Parry score is equal to 10+BAB+Shield bonus(including magical enhancements)+ 1/2 Strength mod. This choice can only be made once per round, and only before the attack roll is made. You must be wielding a shield in one of your hands to use this feat.
This scales well, doesn't require any extra rolling and only minimal math (which can be done in advance), and is best for melee classes over other shield capable classes. Further feats like this in a potential chain could increase the modifier or increase the number of uses per round. Along with feats that allow shields to help vs touch attacks and/or Reflex saves, I think this would go a looong way in making sword'n'board viable again.
Masterwork heavy steel shield with masterwork shield spikes: $630 gp
+5 magic bonus to shield: $25,000 gp
+5 Defending special ability to shield spikes: $72,000 gp
+12 to AC for $97,630 gp: priceless