The ability is clear enough as is, please don't yield to the lowest common denominator, that's the way of 4E, and makes me a sad panda. =(If you insist on doing it, however, at least do us the favor of removing it altogether and replacing it with a Dimension Door 1/day (a spell even the most obtuse GMs can understand), instead or giving us a nerfed ability.
I fail to see how tweeking the Dimensional Hop ability will be yielding to the lowest common denominator . And I'm not interested in the 4E game at all and will probably never even play it, I am interested in making this game what 3.5 should have been. That being said I believe that Dimensional Hop should be a level appropriate ability for a character class that normally doesn't allow such an ability. If you bother to look further down the list of the Travel domain you will see Dimension Door 3/day already listed at 12th, which is a level appropriate ability (as far as the designer was concerned and I'm in agreement with that as well). I don't have the book with me and can't download it at work but I believe the trend is if a domain grants abilities that a cleric normally has via the spell list they are granted at around the same level they would gain access to. If it is giving them access to something they normally don't have it comes a little bit later. I like this trend, it makes sense. What we have here is a low level ability that is quite possibly too powerful in its utility. As it stands now it can be used without AoO to escape a grapple (its an SU ability), it can be used to bypass a trap or locked/trapped door, it can be used in combat to change the battlefield dynamics - all as a swift action. It's kind of like the old polymorph spell, not in power but in that there are so many applications if it isn't limited in some way. I'm fairly certain the vast majority of the 1st level abilities are somewhat limited in application (mostly towards combat), making it Line of Sight doesn't really affect most of the options the character has all that much and prevents headaches.
I like the idea of a lower level travel ability and have no problem with a swift action, multiple uses per day up to such and such limit. I do however think that by making it line of sight that would alleviate the majority of the problems people are having with it. I am totally against giving a 1st level character Dimension Door as well if anyone cares to know.
The reason I was advocating not making it a teleport ability is for many of the reasons mentioned in this post. If the overall game effect is to give the cleric bonus movement, then why not make it do just that? You're going to end up with many exceptions on stuff the power can't do, which will take up much of the text of the power explanation.
A first level power should not teleport anything.
I'm with veector on this. First level characters, even with 5 foot teleportation are a world-changer. Secure building design becomes ridiculous. How does the upper middleclass prevent itself from being the victim of a locust-like swarm teleporting cleric/thieves?
Also agree swift action is too much. But I'm not a fan of swift or immediate actions at all.
I'm with veector on this. First level characters, even with 5 foot teleportation are a world-changer. Secure building design becomes ridiculous. How does the upper middleclass prevent itself from being the victim of a locust-like swarm teleporting cleric/thieves?
Also agree swift action is too much. But I'm not a fan of swift or immediate actions at all.
Even as a teleport effect, Line of Sight will pretty much fix this - Line of Sight doesn't mean wherever I can see. "I can see the room is empty but the window is closed, shucks I can't get in", a flimsy barrier is still a barrier for line of sight. The reason I say that is, if the window is left open some, theoretically you could get through, but you could have also sent your familiar up through or a small character might even be able to squeeze through just the same. You break the window, well there are all sorts of things that you will have to worry about that have nothing to do with whether or not you use the "teleport" ability or jump through or fly through at that point.
When an ability states something like "it teleports X to Y". It doesn't mean the spell Teleport like someone mentioned in a prior post. It is a theme, a description, something to give you an idea of what the action would look like. If it really meant to reference the spell Teleport it would straight out say "See the spell Teleport for a description of how it works". If you are new to the game I could see the confusion though. Mechanically what Dimensional Hop with line of sight at first level would mean is this, A character could take an additional 5' step in any particular combat round twice per day OR a 10' step once per day regardless of terrain or movement mode (move 10' directly up without climb or fly for example) and this movement doesn't provoke any AoO. As a SU ability it doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity and as a swift action it is costing the character something as well as limited useage. Again I'm OK with this and it makes sense for the travel domain when stated this way doesn't it? The distance would just increase as they level up and the mechanics are the exact same.
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The ability is clear enough as is, please don't yield to the lowest common denominator, that's the way of 4E, and makes me a sad panda. =(If you insist on doing it, however, at least do us the favor of removing it altogether and replacing it with a Dimension Door 1/day (a spell even the most obtuse GMs can understand), instead or giving us a nerfed ability.
You have to be joking, right? And did you really need the 4e dig in there? I mean, really?
I have to admit that the power is extremely tempting. I thought about taking the travel domain for my cleric, but it just didn't fit the character flavor. If "powergaming" was my only consideration I wouldn't have hesitated.
I think limiting it to a "line of sight" requirement and changing it to a move action would be ideal for our group.
On the "lowest common denominator" comment, I took the post as referring to the need to "clear things up". I found the power description to be about a clear as water and all 7 members of our group came to the same conclusion as to how it works. 10 feet per level, can be split up as much as you want as long as it is in 5' increments and no more than 10' per level. Taking additional people along costs additional for each person.
Of course, maybe I'm just looking at the positive side and don't see the negative that everyone has gotten alarmed at.
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If you travel 60' in 5' increments that means you move 5' 8 times.
You don't have to move that way. You can, but you could also do it all in one jump of 60', two jumps of 30', three jumps of 20' or whatever amount divisible by 5' that your little heart desires. The author clarified that by using "increment" to describe the movement.
For a non-game example of the definition of "increment", think of an ATM. When you remove money from an ATM and the screen tells you that you can only remove cash in "increments of $20" it does not mean that in order to withdraw $80 you need to perform four separate transactions of $20 apiece. It just means that you can only remove the cash in amounts divisible by twenty.
First level characters, even with 5 foot teleportation are a world-changer. Secure building design becomes ridiculous. How does the upper middleclass prevent itself from being the victim of a locust-like swarm teleporting cleric/thieves?
I think this is a very good point. I would suggest that this power be left as a swift action, but should require both Line of Sight and Line of Effect to work. That way a priest with the travel domain would still be able to rapidly hop around a battlefield or move to otherwise difficult to reach places, but would not be able to, say, enter an enclosed structure or bypass a wall without some other factors involved (such as an open window).
It would also keep jail cells from becoming obsolete in the world. Authorities would simply tie up and blindfold an errant priest.
Another possible restriction (that I am particularly fond of) would be to require the priest to touch or otherwise be in possession of an appropriate holy symbol for this power to work. That way authorities would be able to simply confiscate the priest's holy symbol (along with the wizard's spell-component pouch and fighter's sword) in order to prevent unwanted use of this ability.
"That's what good DMs do...they roll with it and make adjustments. It's not just our game y'know."
The party is currently 8th level and Cleric has Travel and Luck.
The Hop has been a great story device. limited per day and swift action are good for me. i adjust as i can. they are heroes after all.
oh, but i also Beta the adversaries as well.
only fair, says I.
"That's what good DMs do...they roll with it and make adjustments. It's not just our game y'know."
The party is currently 8th level and Cleric has Travel and Luck.
The Hop has been a great story device. limited per day and swift action are good for me. i adjust as i can. they are heroes after all.oh, but i also Beta the adversaries as well.
only fair, says I.
Exactly. Thank you for quoting me in the proper context of encouragement as opposed to a "vaguely insulting imprecation".
--Guru, who is never vague when he intends to insult someone.
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You are choosing to be insulted. I certainly didn't imply that anyone here is a bad DM. If anything I was using an encouraging tone.
You were using a dismissive tone, and you are continuing to be insulting.
You can deny it all you like, but as soon as you start talking about what a good DM does, you are making implications about what bad DMs do.
This ability is far from broken. A good DM can make it just as fun for himself as for the player. If a deity's clerics have access to this domain and it is a popular domain for obvious reasons, then enemies are going to anticipate the use of this ability in confrontations with the cleric and his companions. A clever enemy plans ahead and controls the battlefield. What if your bad guy happens to be standing behind some sort of trap? What if he has an invisible bodyguard?
By choosing to be insulted instead of taking the comment as it was meant you are limiting your perspective on the comment.
Now you're just ticking me off. You need to watch the tone you take with people, because you are being extremely condescending. And don't take that and turn it around blame me for reading you wrong, actually stop and look at how you are communicating. You've now not only implied I'm a bad DM for thinking you're wrong, but now you're accusing me of being short-sighted. It's a bit galling, friend.
My campaign happens to be based off the Basic D&D world of Mystara, and there are no "gods" or true organized religions. There are gahzillions of tiny cults and broad coalitions of similarly aligned religious groups. This makes predicting which cleric will have what domains nearly impossible for all but experts in religion -- most bad guys are not experts in religion, and most people sort the various religions into three categories: light, dark, and wild.
You're right, I could have every enemy be aware of the ability and take plans against it, and I could carefully rewrite every published adventure to work around the ability. But that doesn't make a good DM, that makes me a DM who is willing to sacrifice a broad array of classic stories just to allow one ability, and it makes a DM who is willing to throw any sort of realism and simulation out the window. You may think that's being a good DM, I think that's a silly waste of time when it's so much simpler to Just Say No.
Your solutions are not quite so simple as you make them appear to be. You're correct, the power can be overcome, but you're ignoring the central premise of the complaint: if the power needs to be accounted for in every adventure, and significantly limits the sort of adventures that can be run, then the power is unbalanced.
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Your solutions are not quite so simple as you make them appear to be. You're correct, the power can be overcome, but you're ignoring the central premise of the complaint: if the power needs to be accounted for in every adventure, and significantly limits the sort of adventures that can be run, then the power is unbalanced.
So one power from one domain for one class needs to be accounted for in every adventure, and limits what adventures can be run? I'm sorry, but I just don't think it's that powerful. Yes, that character can use the power to overcome certain obstacles and encounters. But like someone mentioned above, the PCs are heroes and should occasionally be allowed to do that.
If your problem is that no encounter should be able to be bypassed, then you better get rid of the sleep spell too. A 1st-level wizard can take out a band of goblins or kobolds with one spell, and bingo! No more encounter! And yet you don't hear many people complaining that sleep is too powerful. A DM, good or bad, must be able to respond and prepare for what his players will do. And sometimes (often, even), they will do something that you didn't plan for, that completely surprises you, and they should be allowed to do so.
My campaign happens to be based off the Basic D&D world of Mystara, and there are no "gods" or true organized religions. There are gahzillions of tiny cults and broad coalitions of similarly aligned religious groups. This makes predicting which cleric will have what domains nearly impossible for all but experts in religion -- most bad guys are not experts in religion, and most people sort the various religions into three categories: light, dark, and wild.
Keep in mind, I think, that most people's campaigns are not set up this way. You have a valid point about this power's problems in your campaign, but that doesn't mean the same problem exists in other campaigns. And no offense, but no ability should be vetted on whether or not it "fits" in your campaign, my campaign, or anyone else's campaign.
I believe the power, as written, could use some clarification or possibly minor restrictions like line of sight, etc., but I really hope that it's not removed entirely. I think it's a really cool, really fun power for a 1st level character to have, and opens up a lot of opportunities for some "out-of-the-box" thinking and actions.
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Funny, I had a topic regarding exactly the same thing and people kept telling me it's okay and it's not too powerful.
So now we see it. The fix proposed on that thread (has been lost in time I guess) was to...
a) make it require a move action
b) require a line of sight.
That simple. I'm not really looking forward to try prove its problems to all the people, since some seem to be ... too opinionated about the issue. It's overpowered and it must be modified. MUST.
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I find it amusing that when 4E was previewed, so many old-schoolers were up in arms about Eladrin and their Fey-Step (OMG! WTF! Teleport at first level? This is totally broken!), yet when an ability of similar flavour and power is suggested for PF, we have so many posters accepting and defending it.
Now, it may be that everyone has maintained a consistent stance on both abilities (I'm certainly not going to dig up old threads to catch anyone out).
However, if there is anyone out there who hates the former (by WOTC), but is OK with the latter (by Paizo), please could they explain why they believe Travel Domain Dimension Hop is a perfectly acceptable addition to the game that doesn't cause any issues, yet Fey Step is '' (or insert your own favourite anti-WOTC purple-faced rant)?
Whilst I'm in the camp that's not in favour of teleportation for 1st-level PCs (and yes, that does include Benign Transposition, and all the ten-a-penny items in the MIC, or similar), I do wonder if the difference in the way both abilities were received had more to do with who proposed them, than any consideration of their mechanics, and that would be wrong. Partisanship (for either company) has no place in deciding if a rule is right (for either game), and I just want to see some consistency.
Basically, if you hate Fey Step, you can't like this.
If you like Fey Step, you can't hate this, and vice versa.
If you like this, then you have to like Fey Step, and a great many people will have to eat some humble pie, and admit that WOTC had a really cool idea, if they want to play a Travel-domain cleric with this ability, as written, in PFRPG. I wonder how many people are big enough to do that?
When an ability states something like "it teleports X to Y". It doesn't mean the spell Teleport like someone mentioned in a prior post. It is a theme, a description, something to give you an idea of what the action would look like. If it really meant to reference the spell Teleport it would straight out say "See the spell Teleport for a description of how it works". If you are new to the game I could see the confusion though. Mechanically what Dimensional Hop with line of sight at first level would mean is this, A character could take an additional 5' step in any particular combat round twice per day OR a 10' step once per day regardless of terrain or movement mode (move 10' directly up without climb or fly for example) and this movement doesn't provoke any AoO. As a SU ability it doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity and as a swift action it is costing the character something as well as limited useage. Again I'm OK with this...
I didn't confuse the ability for what it was and I'm not confusing it for the power of teleport. What I'm basically saying is that any time a character can disappear from one location and appear in another location, that ability, even if limited to just themselves and with limited range and LOS, is too powerful for a first level character. I would say, even toned down, it sounds like a 3rd level ability.
You are choosing to be insulted. I certainly didn't imply that anyone here is a bad DM. If anything I was using an encouraging tone.You were using a dismissive tone, and you are continuing to be insulting.
You can deny it all you like, but as soon as you start talking about what a good DM does, you are making implications about what bad DMs do.
This ability is far from broken. A good DM can make it just as fun for himself as for the player. If a deity's clerics have access to this domain and it is a popular domain for obvious reasons, then enemies are going to anticipate the use of this ability in confrontations with the cleric and his companions. A clever enemy plans ahead and controls the battlefield. What if your bad guy happens to be standing behind some sort of trap? What if he has an invisible bodyguard?
By choosing to be insulted instead of taking the comment as it was meant you are limiting your perspective on the comment.
Now you're just ticking me off. You need to watch the tone you take with people, because you are being extremely condescending. And don't take that and turn it around blame me for reading you wrong, actually stop and look at how you are communicating. You've now not only implied I'm a bad DM for thinking you're wrong, but now you're accusing me of being short-sighted. It's a bit galling, friend.
My campaign happens to be based off the Basic D&D world of Mystara, and there are no "gods" or true organized religions. There are gahzillions of tiny cults and broad coalitions of similarly aligned religious groups. This makes predicting which cleric will have what domains nearly impossible for all but experts in religion -- most bad guys are not experts in religion, and most people sort the various religions into three categories: light, dark, and wild.
You're right, I could have every enemy be aware of the ability and take plans against it, and I could carefully rewrite every published...
You're obviously far more emotionally involved in the arguement than I am so why don't we just let it rest?
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I find it amusing that when 4E was previewed, so many old-schoolers were up in arms about Eladrin and their Fey-Step (OMG! WTF! Teleport at first level? This is totally broken!), yet when an ability of similar flavour and power is suggested for PF, we have so many posters accepting and defending it.
Yes this is similar to fey step and I don't care for both. The only difference is there's a limitation to this power 10' per cleric level. Fey step is 30' unlimited times per day. Yes, it can only be used once in a fight (ooo scary limitation) but if you come to an up drawbridge 20' long, with a portculis and 3 locked doors...level 1 cleric teleports to the middle of the moat. The level 1 eladin (however its spelled) pulls the lever....anyway this will all get worked out when play test clerics next week...hopefully
I find it amusing that when 4E was previewed, so many old-schoolers were up in arms about Eladrin and their Fey-Step (OMG! WTF! Teleport at first level? This is totally broken!), yet when an ability of similar flavour and power is suggested for PF, we have so many posters accepting and defending it.
I find both abilities a bit overpowered, (and i am one who WAS a rabidly anti 4Eer) If the Eladrin's ability was a daily, i likely wouldn't mind. If this power gets fixed to line of sight and a standard, i will consider the issue solved. Either way, it will be adjusted in my campaign. Course, in our 4e games the eladrin's isn't as much of an issue either, none of us currently play one and the fey's use hasn't had much impact on the battles. I CAN see where it would cause problems outside of battle however. We've also had interesting discussions on how such an ability would affect architecture. not much need for stairs or even doors in many cases when you can teleport virtually at will after all.
That being said...i really wish people would stop the pathfinder/3.5 stuff to 4E. They are different games. They have many of the same elements ordered differently, but the designers of both games worked side by side for years, its natural they borrow/steal/adapt each others ideas in their own creations. This makes for better games, it shouldn't make for louder arguments.
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If the ability were reduced to being extra movement, or easier movement, that would still keep the flavour and concept of the Domain. without letting medium-level effects into the hands of novice PCs.
One possibility is to emulate the spell Lightfoot(Ranger 1, Spell Compendium):
Swift spell, verbal only. Provoke no AoO for moving that round.
It's useful for escaping a fight, rescuing/healing allies, or attacking leaders behind goons.
It does exactly what I would expect from a free-wheeling priest of the wide-open road.
It doesn't let you teleport to places you can't see, burgle impenetrable vaults, escape jails or manacles, escape an unbreakable grapple, jump vertically upwards, cross impenetrable terrain, or take anyone else with you (who, let's be honest, may not even acknowledge your faith).
It's more "Woah! Can't catch me, I'm too fast!"
Less "BAMMFF!!" (cop. 'X-Men', Marvel Comics)
Assuming he's using a spiked chain, every enemy he could AoO is within a 5' step of him. Oops.
Actually, the OP mentions he's enlarged ("his enlarged self"), so he's presumably got 20' reach.
Gotta work on that reading comprehension, man... :-)
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So one power from one domain for one class needs to be accounted for in every adventure, and limits what adventures can be run? I'm sorry, but I just don't think it's that powerful. Yes, that character can use the power to overcome certain obstacles and encounters. But like someone mentioned above, the PCs are heroes and should occasionally be allowed to do that.
Not every adventure, but for the first three or four levels -- the traditional Basic levels -- the ability to teleport 5' as a swift action is a total world breaker. The ability to use a locked door to control movement through a dungeon is essential at low levels.
If your problem is that no encounter should be able to be bypassed, then you better get rid of the sleep spell too. A 1st-level wizard can take out a band of goblins or kobolds with one spell, and bingo! No more encounter! And yet you don't hear many people complaining that sleep is too powerful. A DM, good or bad, must be able to respond and prepare for what his players will do. And sometimes (often, even), they will do something that you didn't plan for, that completely surprises you, and they should be allowed to do so.
You're thinking in terms of combat encounters. You can't sleep a locked door. You can't charm person (or magic missle, or shocking grasp, etc.) a portcullis. There is a reason that Knock is a 2nd level spell. It makes it a far more rare spell than Hold Portal.
Keep in mind, I think, that most people's campaigns are not set up this way. You have a valid point about this power's problems in your campaign, but that doesn't mean the same problem exists in other campaigns. And no offense, but no ability should be vetted on whether...
My point was that dude (I won't try to spell that name) was offering up "simple" one-size-fits-all solution to a complex problem, and that it was as easy as he thought. I used my campaign as an example because his solution totally fails in my campaign, so it's useless to me.
I think rather than try to handwave the problems it creates away, Jason should focus on preserving the inability of low level characters to easily bypass all walls, doors, gates and locks.
Not every adventure, but for the first three or four levels -- the traditional Basic levels -- the ability to teleport 5' as a swift action is a total world breaker. The ability to use a locked door to control movement through a dungeon is essential at low levels.
I was wondering why you have an unlock knob on the inside of your doors in the dungeon? Why not require a key to unlock the door from either side? If I remember correctly, that is the way locks used to work, before they got a little more advanced.
I also think that line-of-sight and/or line-of-effect works well as a fix, if one is needed.
By offering up some examples I was not in any way offering a "one size fits all" solution. I do in fact understand that what works for me doesn't work for others. I just don't see it as overpowered as some do.
I think the best fix is line of sight and move action.
And I think that anyone who pops to the other side of a closed door without knowing what's behind it deserves what he gets.
P.S: It's "Guru" for short.
And again, although not all of us agree I was in no way attempting to denigrate or condescend to anyone whose opinion differs from mine. When I typed what I did it was from the perspective that all of us hanging around here giving and receiving advice are good DMs. That includes Gailbraithe.
Players do the damndest things to their DMs so maybe in your own campaign they are abusive of this ability. I just think it's more fun for a DM to turn it against them. Because I'm fundamentally an evil DM (but a good evil DM, y'know).
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Ok, regardless of other possible 'problems' the ability may have, the OPs complaint is not one of them. I'm serious.
The Cleric teleports himself amongst a bunch of enemies - the enemies know they'll provoke AoOs by moving away - so why move away? Maul the cleric for teleporting there. I mean, when you make yourself an easy target, expect to take hits. Assuming he's using a spiked chain, every enemy he could AoO is within a 5' step of him. Oops.
if he was alone fine but when he brings the fighter with him who also has a spike chain then it gets mess.
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Assuming he's using a spiked chain, every enemy he could AoO is within a 5' step of him. Oops.Actually, the OP mentions he's enlarged ("his enlarged self"), so he's presumably got 20' reach.
Gotta work on that reading comprehension, man... :-)
Edit: Ok, I found the general reach description - it isn't clear what reach that cleric would have (15 or 20'?)
Regardless, that requires that the wizard cast enlarge before the cleric ported off, meaning chances are the monsters are already in the party's face. So sometimes the party gets lucky and the monsters all go last.
How is this much different than having to charge into the cleric's reach anyway? Or having the cleric just walk into range?
nope str domain gives him enlarge so 1st round enlarges himself and hops with fighter 15 reach with fighter having 10, port within 15 feet of foes u got them all in your sights.
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I would add that it can not be used to by-pass Force effects. I have had the same situation with Anklets of Translocation (MIC 1400gp 2/day teleport 10ft.). Having a cheap, low-level item negate a Force Cage is crazy and possible broken!
See, I would have said 'necessary for game balance' instead of 'crazy and possibly broken'. Non-wizards need ways of reliably getting past Walls of Force and out of Forcecages. Especially player characters who will be absolutely useless if they get stuck behind such a barrier - which is no fun for the player. Now, monsters won't always have such gear/abilities, and when they don't those tactics work for the party. And that's fine - its ok for the party to be that awesome. But no player should have to sit out for a 3 hour combat because they got stuck on the wrong side of a WoF.
I think you're both right. I totally agree with Squirreloid, that missing an entire session inside a force prison is no fun at all, and that there should be ways for divine casters, semi-casters, and non-casters to overcome them.
However, I don't think that justifies giving away teleportation powers at the instant of character creation. If a spell is overly-effective, then the best solution is to reign in the parameters of that spell, and/or allow mundane means to overcome it, not to hand out more power to other casters, which can be overly-useful in other contexts.
That way just leads to an arms race. What's next? The wizard players complain that their 6th-level spells have been reduced to the equivalent of a 1-round Hold Person, so we have to combat the Travel-domain clerics, by making Dimensional Anchor and Dimensional Lock into abilities for 1st-level characters? And now we're back where we started, at least as far as CastervsCaster showdowns are concerned. The ordinary citizens of the setting, the non-casters, and the monsters without magic are left even further behind, eating their dust.
In the case of the force walls, they could be given actual Hit Points, and hardness/DR, enabling them to be chopped down, and/or reducing the duration per %age of damage taken. That way, the trapped character can still (theoretically) contribute to his own escape, as can any unengaged allies. It's the utter finality of 'You can use this, AND ONLY THIS, to escape...' that makes the player throw his character sheet away in disgust, and walk off for a smoke.
Both Dimension Door and Teleport both say that Large creatures count as two creatures for the purpose of the spell.
If/when I get a player that takes this domain, I will rule that the same applies to the power.
So, if the cleric is enlarged, as well as the fighter, then they count as 4 for the purposes of the spell. That will seriously limit the distance that they can travel.
Jason will need to clarify whether this is similar to dimension door (direction and can't do anything for the rest of the round) or like teleportation (with the chances of destination error). At the moment, I will go with Dimension door limitations, as it seems to be more in line with what the power should be.
However, I don't think that justifies giving away teleportation powers at the instant of character creation. If a spell is overly-effective, then the best solution is to reign in the parameters of that spell, and/or allow mundane means to overcome it, not to hand out more power to other casters, which can be overly-useful in other contexts.
That way just leads to an arms race. What's next? The wizard players complain that their 6th-level spells have been reduced to the equivalent of a 1-round Hold Person, so we have to combat the Travel-domain clerics, by making Dimensional Anchor and Dimensional Lock into abilities for 1st-level characters? And now we're back where we started, at least as far as CastervsCaster showdowns are concerned. The ordinary citizens of the setting, the non-casters, and the monsters without magic are left even further behind, eating...
How many deities provide the Travel Domain?
Only 3 of the good aligned deities from Golarion do (who would probably take a dim view of their clerics doing B&Es in innocents - the guilty will have other defenses).Not sure about the other worlds.
I am having a bit of trouble as seeing this as a large problem. I do not believe that many clerics will be able to use the ability. That those that do will soon learn the dangers of being separated from the group, if they live (ambushes, no way to unlock the door from the other side, traps, etc...).
A rod of cancellation will take care of that 6th level spell (or boots of teleportation, etc..). At that level, there are always possible ways to circumvent obstacles.
There is no need to nerf a short distance teleport. As a Swift action, it is useful. As anything more, it is automatically held to a much higher standard which it fails to meet. So it means you can get out of Forcecages. That's one of the many things that makes melees laughable. Giving them a counter to that, so they can keep up is a good thing. Pathfinder was supposed to buff melee. This is the first step towards actually doing it. Yes, I said first step.
The next step from here is to look at other abilities that require an action and ensure they are worth that action. Dodge would be worth using if it were still a free action but otherwise the same as it is in PF, but since it intrudes upon the Action Economy it must be better to be worth considering, which it fails to be. As a result it is still a waste of a feat, except before you at least got some use out of it without hampering yourself.
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So it means you can get out of Forcecages. That's one of the many things that makes melees laughable. Giving them a counter to that, so they can keep up is a good thing. Pathfinder was supposed to buff melee. This is the first step towards actually doing it. Yes, I said first step.
How does giving a new power to clerics help melee types?
Except to make them rely on their cleric even more than they do already?If you want melee types to beat forcecages, give them a big bag of hp, and let them beat them down.
The cleric in this case is melee. More to the point, it's standard practice to power dip as the only available means of getting a viable melee character within the core rules. Pathfinder does absolutely nothing to rectify this as none of them are solid enough to stick with, ergo slipping on a cleric dip with the other stuff is not out of the realm of reason.
If the ability were reduced to being extra movement, or easier movement, that would still keep the flavour and concept of the Domain. without letting medium-level effects into the hands of novice PCs.
One possibility is to emulate the spell Lightfoot(Ranger 1, Spell Compendium):
Swift spell, verbal only. Provoke no AoO for moving that round.
It's useful for escaping a fight, rescuing/healing allies, or attacking leaders behind goons.
It does exactly what I would expect from a free-wheeling priest of the wide-open road.It doesn't let you teleport to places you can't see, burgle impenetrable vaults, escape jails or manacles, escape an unbreakable grapple, jump vertically upwards, cross impenetrable terrain, or take anyone else with you (who, let's be honest, may not even acknowledge your faith).
It's more "Woah! Can't catch me, I'm too fast!"
Less "BAMMFF!!" (cop. 'X-Men', Marvel Comics)
I actually really like this idea. The moving without AoOs is at least somewhat more plausible from a world-building standpoint. Low level teleportation is pretty crazy once you start considering how a world would have to built itself to defend against it. I'm all for PCs having unique/useful abilities, but right out of the gate is a bit much. This ability as is is already better than a freakin' Dragonmark from Eberron, and that's something a family built an entire trade empire out of.
When you consider that 99.9% of the people can't use it, and the worlds that don't just give magic the lalala we can hear you approach like Eberron have adapted to the fact that low level magic exists it's not so bad to say walls can't hold them, especially since prison is a low level encounter anyways. It's like getting upset orc warrior 1s don't phase a level 10 party. If you want to use orcs, use better orcs.
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If the ability were reduced to being extra movement, or easier movement, that would still keep the flavour and concept of the Domain. without letting medium-level effects into the hands of novice PCs.
One possibility is to emulate the spell Lightfoot(Ranger 1, Spell Compendium):
Swift spell, verbal only. Provoke no AoO for moving that round.
It's useful for escaping a fight, rescuing/healing allies, or attacking leaders behind goons.
It does exactly what I would expect from a free-wheeling priest of the wide-open road.It doesn't let you teleport to places you can't see, burgle impenetrable vaults, escape jails or manacles, escape an unbreakable grapple, jump vertically upwards, cross impenetrable terrain, or take anyone else with you (who, let's be honest, may not even acknowledge your faith).
It's more "Woah! Can't catch me, I'm too fast!"
Less "BAMMFF!!" (cop. 'X-Men', Marvel Comics)
You are a genius. You deserve a medal. This is exactly what should replace the current ability.
I'm half tempted to argue the teleport should stay just to foil low level railroaders (which is ultimately what all prison scenarios are, they just have variable degrees of success with their Disguise checks). I don't need to though, because there are plenty of other reasons not to have an irrational kneejerk reaction to it.
I'm half tempted to argue the teleport should stay just to foil low level railroaders (which is ultimately what all prison scenarios are, they just have variable degrees of success with their Disguise checks). I don't need to though, because there are plenty of other reasons not to have an irrational kneejerk reaction to it.
Gee, thanks. My "kneejerk" reaction to this ability is actually thinking "Cool!" Then, I think about it some more, and realize that there are problems with it.
I've never thrown my PCs into a prison. But the fact remains that there ARE prisons in the world. If all it takes to get out of one is to take a one level dip into a faith devoted to a deity with the travel domain (or, perhaps, believe so earnestly in travel and freedom that you become an unaligned cleric with the domain), then suddenly prisons require dimensional anchor shackles and massive magical defenses generated from high level casters just to keep an errant criminal out. In a world where there is one way to get limited teleportation from the git-go, I don't really see why there wouldn't be a priest of travel affiliated with every thieves' guild this side of the World Spine, one who teaches his thieves to be acolytes of the faithful, too. It means easy entry into the homes of the rich and a get-out-of-jail free card to boot. Just because it's a "railroader" DM's ploy to lock PCs in prison doesn't mean that somehow, magically, prisons shouldn't exist in a game.
I like Tome of Battle. A LOT. And there is a low level teleportation effect in there, in the Shadow Hand discipline. It's 2nd level, which means that a Sword Sage (and only sword sage) has to be 3rd level to get it, and it's a standard action. You also can't take others with you. This is still rather potent, but since I tend to assume most NPCs aren't 3rd or higher level, it's less of an issue. But a single level to get teleportation? No, I don't think that's a good benchmark. And ToB is often commented on these boards by a few posters as being the single most overpowered splat book out there (I disagree, but that's neither here nor there).
Prisons are for random peon criminals. If you can teleport around, well you aren't a peon now are you? Just because they can't arrest you doesn't mean they can't deal with you.
Also, why are these rich people sitting around with unguarded vaults?
Prisons are for random peon criminals. If you can teleport around, well you aren't a peon now are you? Just because they can't arrest you doesn't mean they can't deal with you.
Also, why are these rich people sitting around with unguarded vaults?
And why are you not a peon just because you're a first level cleric dedicated to a deity of travel? First level IS peon level. Perhaps slightly above, but certainly not God of the Universe level. Prisons/town guards shouldn't need 7th level clerics or wizards just to hold a first level priest in place when he's feeling like pulling a Hayden Christensen. Especially since that's an inefficient way to do it.
And why are these rich people sitting around paying money for guards to stand vigil all day and night in their vaults? Or needing to pay 8th level sorcerers to secure their vault against first level thieves?
Seriously, do you NOT see how something like this wouldn't completely change a world? You keep saying it's a rare thing, but why would it be? Who wouldn't want to just teleport wherever they go? Especially since they'd also be able to chuck around magical healing and a few other spells. And all they need is an AVERAGE wisdom to be a first level priest capable of doing this. An 11 and they can cast a few spells and teleport through walls. How do you not see how this changes a world?
Travel domain: Good aligned deity, good aligned deity, LN deity that likes rich people and wealth. Care to rethink its feasibility for theft?
I'm not presuming the rich people are using guards. That is both highly inefficient and a massive weakness. More like various very deadly traps that spring if anyone other than (very small list of people) tries to go down there, or that trigger if someone teleports within. The really rich ones won't give a rat's ass about being 'fair' to the PCs as they don't understand the concept and would think you mad for being fair to thieves. End result? You want the pile of millions of gold, you get to deal with traps doing some absurd amount of damage a round so unless you counter every single one of them you die in one round.
Ideas taken directly from someone I used to play around with the possibilities for death traps as a means of protecting their home and wealth.
Travel domain: Good aligned deity, good aligned deity, LN deity that likes rich people and wealth. Care to rethink its feasibility for theft?
Does Pathfinder represent every world? No. Is it possible in some worlds (and possibly Golarion) for clerics to be devoted to an idea rather than deity? Yes.
There is no reason to believe that there will only be good aligned clerics with the travel domain. Just because that's how Pathfinder is now doesn't mean it'll be that way all the time. A DM shouldn't have to tailor their world to only have good aligned or beneficent deities with the travel domain, and I'm not sure that Pathfinder specifically rules out godless clerics, either.
How many deities provide the Travel Domain?
Only 3 of the good aligned deities from Golarion do (who would probably take a dim view of their clerics doing B&Es in innocents - the guilty will have other defenses).
Not sure about the other worlds.
Clerics are not required to take a god at all and are able to pick & choose domains as they see fit "to represent her spiritual inclinations". Not to mention anyone with a power like that would be able to find a rationale to use it regardless of alignment. I loved the idea of the Books of Vile / Exalted etc but when asked if I would allow the Exalted to be added into the campaign, knew damn well my players wouldn't be able to play a character up to my expectations of "pure good and virtue" and had to say no. People have a hard enough time playing shining champions due to our predisposition towards being morally flexible and I didn't want to have the character getting atoned every third adventure. I guess my point is that basing or balancing any significant ability on alignment is generally a really bad call and that DM's will usually let things slide to keep the game going on that matter.
That being said I really do believe the travel domain ability is fair at swift action, line of effect. With the intent of anywhere you couldn't get your body normally with out some effort, you aren't going. No using it to pop through key holes/peep holes/cracks in the door for example. Which line of effect basically does. If it needed more moderation then making it a move equivalent would place it in the "not contested" area in my mind.
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I'm half tempted to argue the teleport should stay just to foil low level railroaders (which is ultimately what all prison scenarios are, they just have variable degrees of success with their Disguise checks). I don't need to though, because there are plenty of other reasons not to have an irrational kneejerk reaction to it.
Some DMs may start an adventure with "...you all wake up in prison...", or set up a one-sided arrest/kidnap encounter that achieves the same end. But not all.
Sometimes, a PC (or the PCs) will lose a fight with an entirely CR-appropriate enemy. Sometimes, they will be pursued by the rightful authorities, due to their moronic irresponsible choices.
Claiming that all DMs who use the concept of jails are railroaders, is very revealing.
3.5 PHB - Travel Domain
Granted Powers
For a total time per day of 1 round per cleric level you possess, you can act normally regardless of magical effects that impede movement as if you were affected by the spell FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT. This effect occurs automatically as soon as it applies, lasts until it runs out or is no longer needed, and can operate multiple times per day (up to the total daily limit of rounds).
This granted power is a supernatural ability.
Add Survival to your list of cleric class skills.
Travel Domain Spells
1. Longstrider: Increases your speed.
2. Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
3. Fly: Subject flies at speed of 60 ft.
4. Dimension Door: Teleports you short distance.
5. Teleport: Instantly transports you as far as 100 miles/level.
6. Find the Path: Shows most direct way to a location.
7. Teleport, Greater: As teleport, but no range limit and no off-target arrival.
8. Phase Door: Creates an invisible passage through wood or stone.
9. Astral Projection M: Projects you and companions onto Astral Plane.
Freedom of Movement
Abjuration
Level: Brd 4, Clr 4, Drd 4, Luck 4, Rgr 4
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal or touch
Target: You or creature touched
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.
The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, allow water breathing.
Material Component
A leather thong, bound around the arm or a similar appendage.
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PATHFINDER - Travel Domain
Deities: Abadar, Cayden Cailean, Desna.
Level Ability
1st Dimensional Hop (Su): You can teleport up to 10 feet per caster level per day as a swift action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each creature brought with you.
2nd Expeditious Retreat (Sp): You can cast expeditious retreat 1/day per 2 caster levels you possess.
4th Levitate (Sp): You can cast levitate 1/day.
8th Flight (Su): You can f ly at your base speed for a number of rounds per day equal to your caster level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. Your
maneuverability while f lying in this manner is perfect, granting you a +8 racial bonus on Fly skill checks.
12th Dimension Door (Sp): You can cast dimension door 3/day.
16th Greater Teleport (Sp): You can cast greater teleport 1/day
20th Astral Projection (Sp): You can cast astral projection 1/day
DIMENSION DOOR
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 4, Travel 4
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None and Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No and Yes (object)
You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. AFTER USING THIS SPELL, YOU CAN’T TAKE ANY OTHER ACTIONS UNTIL YOUR NEXT TURN. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.
If you arrive in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, you and each creature traveling with you take 1d6 points of damage and are shunted to a random open space on a suitable surface within 100 feet of the intended location.
If there is no free space within 100 feet, you and each creature traveling with you take an additional 2d6 points of damage and are shunted to a free space within 1,000 feet. If there is no free space within 1,000 feet, you and each creature travelling with you take an additional 4d6 points of damage and the spell simply fails.
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Yup, all that for one sentence... AFTER USING THIS SPELL, YOU CAN’T TAKE ANY OTHER ACTIONS UNTIL YOUR NEXT TURN. That... is ... your.. ANSWER. :)
I did my best to compare the ability to the original and then discovered that the original 3.5 PHB ability was also emulating a 4th level spell, Freedom Of Movement. However it does it in a much better, less game breaking manner. However, I agree some of the previous posters that that teleportation of any kind at 1ST LEVEL is broken. ( Including the ‘Benign Transposition’ spell from the Spell Compendium )
As for dealing with an Enlarged Chain Fighter... IMPROVED DISARM & IMPROVED UNARMED STRIKE
I believe this was called... “Wow, thanks for the +1 Silver Undead Bane Ghost Touching Spiked Chain!”
or as I would’ve put it... “A very unhappy undead hunting ranger.”
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Thanks for the comparison. That must have taken some cutting and pasting, and helps keep us all on the same page.
I was aware of the 3.5 Freedom of Movement effect being a 4th level effect as well, and, believe me, that spell has been a pain in the ass for years, but at least it's a spell on the cleric's own list.
I'm half tempted to argue the teleport should stay just to foil low level railroaders (which is ultimately what all prison scenarios are, they just have variable degrees of success with their Disguise checks). I don't need to though, because there are plenty of other reasons not to have an irrational kneejerk reaction to it.Some DMs may start an adventure with "...you all wake up in prison...", or set up a one-sided arrest/kidnap encounter that achieves the same end. But not all.
Sometimes, a PC (or the PCs) will lose a fight with an entirely CR-appropriate enemy. Sometimes, they will be pursued by the rightful authorities, due to their moronic irresponsible choices.
Claiming that all DMs who use the concept of jails are railroaders, is very revealing.
In such cases, they literally suffer a fate worse than death. *insert dubious face smiley here*
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In such cases, they literally suffer a fate worse than death. *insert dubious face smiley here*
I've done that; in one instance, a PC who went burgling a totally innocent family lost a fight to an Expert2 in his nightshirt, with a candlestick, and I had him disembowelled on the roof of the court, to a baying crowd, and his entrails thrown to the crows who flock there.
Funnily enough, his next PC was law-abiding, and even got himself deputised to the last PC's executioner.