The fight against Hookface was something I had been looking forward to for some time. It comes at the end of a chapter, when the PCs should be worn down. And dragons in general are quite deadly.
In this case the party was not very worn down at all. The party's bard has levels in a prestige class called "seeker of the song" which gives her access to a song that gives the whole party fire resistance 15. So the evacuation was easy for them.
I gave the players spot checks to see the dragon flying into the city. Anyone who made their spot check was given a surprise round to cast a buff, drink a potion, etc.
The wizard cast Polymorph Any Object on the monk, turning him into a storm giant.
The sorceror cohort casts haste on everyone.
So combat begins. The halfling cleric runs in the direction of Hookface and shouts out a challenge, getting his attention.
The wizard casts Enlarge Person on the monk, who is already a storm giant. I argue with the players that they can't do that, it's against the rules. We bicker for a while. Eventually I give in. The monk is now bigger and has more strength than Hookface.
The (now gargantuan) monk readies an action to charge the dragon if it flies to a low altitude. Other people also hold their actions until the dragon approaches.
Hookface dives down and bites the cleric, quickening a breath weapon against everyone. The rogue evades all damage, and everyone else still has resistance 15 to it anyway. The cleric seems very pleased that he has been bitten. At this point Hookface would normally fly away and drop the cleric from a high altitude.
But no, the giant monk had readied an action. He runs over and TRIPS the dragon. S#&~, my dragon is now prone! Improved Trip feat gets the monk a free unarmed attack, and he crits. The damage is unbelievable. Everybody in the party runs over to join in the smackdown. Wizard casts Greater Dispel on Hookface. Fighter starts laying in with his greatsword and full power attack. Sorceror succesfully casts Ray of Exhaustion on Hookface. The bard shoots some ice crap at him a couple times with her bardic music, just for good measure.
The cleric uses his Divine Quicken feat to cast a quickened Freedom of Movement, which releases him from the dragon's jaws. With a maniacal grin, he runs straight into Hookface's mouth and jumps into his stomach.
For Hookface's 2nd action, he tries to stand up and fly away. Standing up provokes attacks of opportunity from just about everybody. Then I figured everyone has used up their attacks for this round, I'll have him fly away before he dies. But the monk has the Combat Reflexes feat. He decides to (you guessed it) TRIP Hookface again and punch him. Everyone continues to beat on the dragon mercilessly.
The halfling cleric is in the dragon's stomach, taking acid damage. He casts Harm. Before the end of the 3rd round, Hookface slumps to the ground, dead.
WTF.
Yeah, some parties can make mincemeat out of challenges that leave other parties as stains on the floor.
It probably wouldnt have made much diff, but maybe (due to strength and size for trip purposes). I would have put a firm NO on the englarge person/storm giant combo. Even with regular polymorph, not so much, but with Poly any Object, I'd really hammer it home.
Poly any Object turns you into that thing, completely, for the duration of the spell based on degree of change. Ergo, he is a giant. Not a humanoid. No enlarge person. Personally, I would have even had him lock out his human bonus feat. But thats just how I roll at my table.
My main question is: how did they actually make physical contact with Hookface in the first place? Breath weapon strafing runs can be done from what, 60 or even 90 feet in the air? Even as a storm giant, the jump check required to get that high is.... very high. A generous DM might say 21 for height of giant + 15 for reach = 36 feet. Which leaves 24 feet for the jump to reach the dragon. Even with a running start, or equivalent ability, thats a DC 92 jump check.
It should be noted, as an aside, that jump DCs work fairly well, but only for medium and some large creatures. Bigger creatures end up incapable of making the jumps they should be able to, unless they have ranks in jump, which indicates formal training rather than natural ability.
Sounds like a very memorable fight. I once had a huge red dragon bearing down on my party when the party mage cast polymorph other (2nd ed) and the Dragon failed his save with a roll of 1!
The mage turned the dragon into a cow which promptly hurtled to the ground from the air to its ultimate doom. The paladin of the party who had recently taken up a Dragonslayer prestige class was most put out after not even getting a swing.
The party still love to reminise that battle.
If you want to create a longer battle why not send Hookfaces mate out from their lair to hunt down her lovers killers. This time don't give them any warning!
Delvesdeep
I have to agree with DD, it sounds like a memorable battle, even if it was a short one. So it's fine.
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You know, I realized, that players tend to love, if things go well for them (not in the min/max way), even if you, the DM think - damn, that went bad. The players need to have a good time, and if they have, the DM is doing everything fine!
Of course, you play for a long memorable fight when it comes to a huge dragon, but hey, sometimes...
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Yeah, some parties can make mincemeat out of challenges that leave other parties as stains on the floor.
It probably wouldnt have made much diff, but maybe (due to strength and size for trip purposes). I would have put a firm NO on the englarge person/storm giant combo. Even with regular polymorph, not so much, but with Poly any Object, I'd really hammer it home.
Poly any Object turns you into that thing, completely, for the duration of the spell based on degree of change. Ergo, he is a giant. Not a humanoid. No enlarge person. Personally, I would have even had him lock out his human bonus feat. But thats just how I roll at my table.
My main question is: how did they actually make physical contact with Hookface in the first place? Breath weapon strafing runs can be done from what, 60 or even 90 feet in the air? Even as a storm giant, the jump check required to get that high is.... very high. A generous DM might say 21 for height of giant + 15 for reach = 36 feet. Which leaves 24 feet for the jump to reach the dragon. Even with a running start, or equivalent ability, thats a DC 92 jump check.
It should be noted, as an aside, that jump DCs work fairly well, but only for medium and some large creatures. Bigger creatures end up incapable of making the jumps they should be able to, unless they have ranks in jump, which indicates formal training rather than natural ability.
I'm completely with you on the Enlarge Person, but as for reaching Hookface, he dived down to bite the cleric, so he would likely have been within reach.
As a DM I'd probably be a bit disapointed with that, but I think its a battle the players will be talking about for a long time to come ... so all in all it's probably a decent result.
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Lets whip out the checkboard:
Did the players have fun? If yes, success!
Are the players still talking about it several months/campaigns later? If yes, congratulations! You win at DMing!
Lets whip out the checkboard:
Did the players have fun? If yes, success!
Are the players still talking about it several months/campaigns later? If yes, congratulations! You win at DMing!
But the Rules Lawyers, as is their lot in life, disagree.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Two issues with trip that shouldn't have worked in the party's favor as it did. First, you can't trip a flying creature, so the initial trip shouldn't have worked (unless you had the dragon land before biting the cleric for some reason).
Second, attacks of opportunity happen before the action that triggers them, so when a prone creature stands up, you get an AoO, but it's still prone, so you can't use your AoO to trip it again.
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I've been meaning to doublecheck Hookface's stats. I noticed there are no creatures larger than huge in the entire AP, and I think Hookface and what's-his-name the pyro dragon should be gargantuan for effect. It's too bad you didn't have a more epic fight, but that's the way things go.
A few errors with the rules, but as long as everyone had fun it's okay. I ran an extra event from RPGenius with the Last Laugh attacking Jenya at the temple. It was very satisfying when the cleric walked in, laid down Inflict Moderate Mass and the low CR mooks keeled over in one shot. Gave the guys a decided boost of confidence for the trials ahead.
Two issues with trip that shouldn't have worked in the party's favor as it did. First, you can't trip a flying creature, so the initial trip shouldn't have worked (unless you had the dragon land before biting the cleric for some reason).
Second, attacks of opportunity happen before the action that triggers them, so when a prone creature stands up, you get an AoO, but it's still prone, so you can't use your AoO to trip it again.
Just wanted to point out that as per the FAQ, flying critters can be tripped. It puts them in a state of "stalling" vis a vis the flight rules, which depending on their manuverability class may or may not be problematic for them. For dragons and their relatively bad manuverability, its a problem
Also, the attack of opportunity issue was due to the monk having combat reflexes, and taking a second attack of opportunity as the dragon was attempting to fly away after standing up and provoking what should have been all the attacks of opp the party could muster.
No snark intended, just want everyone on the same page.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Two issues with trip that shouldn't have worked in the party's favor as it did. First, you can't trip a flying creature, so the initial trip shouldn't have worked (unless you had the dragon land before biting the cleric for some reason).
Second, attacks of opportunity happen before the action that triggers them, so when a prone creature stands up, you get an AoO, but it's still prone, so you can't use your AoO to trip it again.
Just wanted to point out that as per the FAQ, flying critters can be tripped. It puts them in a state of "stalling" vis a vis the flight rules, which depending on their manuverability class may or may not be problematic for them. For dragons and their relatively bad manuverability, its a problem
Also, the attack of opportunity issue was due to the monk having combat reflexes, and taking a second attack of opportunity as the dragon was attempting to fly away after standing up and provoking what should have been all the attacks of opp the party could muster.
No snark intended, just want everyone on the same page.
I'm just going to have to say that in this case, the FAQ is being dumb. If you can't trip a snake or an ooze, I don't see how you can trip a flying creature. Tripping is all about center of gravity and putting pressure on lower extremities to cause the center of gravity to have no support under it. It simply doesn't make any sense for a flyer.
The monk's timing on the AoO wasn't clear, so my bad. the dragon probably should have defensively cast a useful spell (don't know what it had, but ideally dimension door.)
I'm just going to have to say that in this case, the FAQ is being dumb. If you can't trip a snake or an ooze, I don't see how you can trip a flying creature. Tripping is all about center of gravity and putting pressure on lower extremities to cause the center of gravity to have no support under it. It simply doesn't make any sense for a flyer.
Imagine the polymorphed giant reaching out and grabbing one of the dragons wings... they are now not flapping properly... makes sense to me it could fall from the sky. In the case of a creature with other forms of flight and manueverability... well, it would be different. Makes sense to me both ways.
Sean Mahoney
Dragons also loose a lot of their omph as everyone gets more powerful. a mid sized Dragon against a 8th-10th level party is phenomenally deadly but higher level dragons versus higher level parties tend to have lots of troubles. The players easily get energy resistance against whatever they need, the Dragon tends to run into trouble with its main tactic of simply closing with the party and tearing them limb from limb with its awesome suite of physical attacks, the players are often highly manuevarable and scattered around so the dragon has trouble catching them for physical attacks and has trouble targeting more then one for breath weapon attacks.
Trying to hit and run means the PCs are laying down the damage both as the Dragon closes and as it tries to fly away and the chances of the Dragon actually being able to snatch and keep a PC is low, they'll have something that either stops the dragon from grabbing them in the first place or they'll teleport out of its grasp or something like this. Players are not foolish - they'll recognize that grappled by really big thing is a danger to their character and at high level they have the resources to buy something that will compensate for that weakness.
I always saw it simply as a test of strength against the opposing creature, who can avoid using their agility or their own strength (with strength usually being the preferred tactic). The goal is to alter the victims momentum. If you win, you redirect their movement (often down or backwards, I've seen a lot of "trip attempts" in real life that are just a good hard shove). If you loose, the opponent maintains their momentum in the direction they intended, and gets the opportunity to use that momentum against you in a counter-trip attempt (which I have also seen in real life, as a result of a hard shove against a person who saw it coming, and repelled it by stepping towards the shover.)
As a good example of a case where the trip attempt against a flying creature fails, I would point to the new Transformers movie. Prime grabs Megatron as he flies by, but is dragged along for a bit instead of pulling him down out of the sky.
The faq specifies that only creatures lacking motive limbs are immune to tripping. A snake, an ooze, or a beholder, have no motive limbs. A flying creature that uses motive limbs (aka wings) is just as legitimate a target.
On a note related to tripping, prone, dragons, and standing up: if a dragon is prone, and all his enemies are around him, what is the best thing to do?
FULL ATTACK. The idiot mortals are within melee reach of you and your only suffering a -4 penalty to attack rolls? Most dragons can deal with that and still dish out a lot of damage. Especially melee dragons who take multiattack and improved multiattack. Heck, a melee dragon would probably take prone fighting just in case.
Like your advice to just attack from prone but not the choice of prone fighting as a feat. Dragons have way, way, more good options for feats then they have enough feats for. I find choosing a dragons feats to be one of the most interesting but difficult choices I make as a DM. I can't see taking prone fighting as one of them on the off chance that the PCs are keeping a Titan in their back pocket.
That said I think the Dragon could also grapple from Prone, which might or might not be a valid tactic. Also don't, as a Dragon, go for the hard targets.
Dragons have almost no healing and not time to cast any healing spell they might happen to have memorized. PCs have infinite healing or close to it. Hence to win a fight the Dragon has to destroy the integrity of the party extremely quickly or it will certainly loose the fight. It has no chance at a war of attrition. Target the softest players first. Killing the rogue and the cleric will make taking down the mage and the fighter that much easier (plus the PCs won't stick around, probably).
Thats of course assuming that you have a choice. If you can 5' step and kill the mage with a full attack thats great, if you have to take a move action to attack the mage or you can full attack the fighter then attacking the fighter is almost certainly still the best option.
Another is combat options like sunder and disarm. That crappy magic sword might hurt, but if you've already taken an attack of opp this round, may as well get rid of it (barring obvious use of combat reflexes).
Heck, most dragons that start a fight could go into it with detect magic running. Assuming he does a fly-by breath first, he could easily know the power level of weapons the party carries. Nasty weapons can be disarmed on flyby attacks, then dropped at the end of the movement just to make the idea of splitting up tempting to recover the weapon.
Telling the PC he takes 27 points of damage fun, and the PC might be a little irritated, but telling him the dragon takes his sword and flies off with it a few hundred feet before dropping it is priceless.
In any case, this thread is tremendously fun to read.
It give me ideas and insight as to what might happen, and how I might run things in the future (even though the PCs in my group are only about to raid Bhal-Hamatugn).
my problem at this Moment is the following:
Even before the group finished evacuating half of the city, one character decided to leave the town because he ran out of teleportation magic.
He argues that the citizens can leave the town on their own and that he has better things to do (finding out where the cagewrights are hiding). After all, the whole world is in peril and he thinks he is the only one to stop the portal from opening.
The rest of the group will stay and help evacuate the city and the leaving player is by no means to be convinced to stay as well. So now there are still 10 encounters to go and the group is weakened. Could become interessting when Hookface arrives...
At least they already fought off the Lake Monster...
Having said that, the plot requires that they press on for the Fiery Sanctum, but they will be completely exhausted by the time Hookface is repelled/killed. I wonder how I'm gonna solve that...Cheers,
Nib
The wizard of the group or any other knowledgeable PC might find out that there is still time (the portal will take a couple of days to form). Let them (subtle) know that going after the Cagewrights in their present condition is not such a good idea.
Loosing players really sucks so far in the campaign. Hope you find a relacement.
PeterV
my problem at this Moment is the following:
Even before the group finished evacuating half of the city, one character decided to leave the town because he ran out of teleportation magic.
He argues that the citizens can leave the town on their own and that he has better things to do (finding out where the cagewrights are hiding). After all, the whole world is in peril and he thinks he is the only one to stop the portal from opening.
The rest of the group will stay and help evacuate the city and the leaving player is by no means to be convinced to stay as well. So now there are still 10 encounters to go and the group is weakened. Could become interessting when Hookface arrives...
At least they already fought off the Lake Monster...
Hmmmm.... so your player is CS aligned. Well, the best punishment is to give your players a couple of great sessions (just trim down the encounters a little) and let the off wanderer, I don't know his class, meet only boring corridors or so, where ever he is. That'll teach him/her (I do hope it's not your spouse!).
Just my opinion.Peter
In any case, this thread is tremendously fun to read.
It give me ideas and insight as to what might happen, and how I might run things in the future (even though the PCs in my group are only about to raid Bhal-Hamatugn).
Here is how it went in my campaign: Hookface appeared from the clouds and terrorized the fleeing people at eastern Obsidian Avenue while searching for magical objects. He landed on the tower of the MTA, ripped it open and robbed a poor gnome from his wand and flung the unfortunate on the street. Meanwhile all the PC's had acquired flying capabilities and just in front of the temple of St Cuthbert they were able to draw the attention of Hookface. Hookface started with his breath weapon and the next rounds used his flyby attack to weaken one of the PC's (the dwarven priest), occasionally breathing fire (which was completely ineffective against the monk and rogue and partly against the fighter, priest and wizard due to protection magic). The rogue/wizard used a wand of dispel magic to remove the dragon's protective spells and the monk was able to attack Hookface each round.
The priest and wizard had little luck in bypassing the dragon's SR and at a certain point in the battle the priest went in the negatives due to not saving for some severe fire damage. Then Hookface snatched the halfling monk, chewed on him and next round unleashed his fiery breath, leaving the monk pretty hurt. Priest got revived, but the PC's were getting desperate: they had done only little damage to Hookface (ca. 100), who was flying with the monk in his beak, chewing him to pieces. Then the wizard got a brilliant idea: He assembled the group and teleported right in front of Hookface, after which the other PC's could make a full round attack (100+ damage). Hookface was not amused, it was time to retreat. He dropped the monk (my fault, assumed casting invisibiliy in combat was not possible, but he has greater invisibility)to cast invisibility to fascilitate escape. Wizard cast see invisibility, priest invisibility purge. Hookface sped away at full speed, to be met by another teleport trick followed by a full round attack = Hookface dead.The whole battle took about 12 rounds, I think they liked it.
All in all within 24 hours they defeated Cauldron's legendary monsters: the Morkoth, Hookface and Nabthatoron (well, that's another tale).
Peter
Hmmmm.... so your player is CS aligned. Well, the best punishment is to give your players a couple of great sessions (just trim down the encounters a little) and let the off wanderer, I don't know his class, meet only boring corridors or so, where ever he is. That'll teach him/her (I do hope it's not your spouse!).
Just my opinion.
Peter
The problem is solved, the character (cleric/warlock) decided to return (because the player eventually realized the evacuation would take much longer than he anticipated).
At the same time the group attacked a mob of horses (stampede event), enraging them even more. The horses broke through and fled along lava avenue.Returning player: "Where am i ?"
DM: "Lava Avenue - oh, and there´s a stampede coming your way"
It was fun, because later they blocked the main streets to the north to contain the animals. That was the moment the urban avalanche took place at the east gate... so they trapped hundreds of people. When an elder fire elemental joined the party, the fun began...
I hope to start the hookface event this evening and i´m excited.
One of my players wants to switch character, so he could be the primary target for hookface. (As an ironborn he would be a nice toy for the dragon to collect). We´ll see
After reading this forum, I'm completely jazzed about the upcoming fight with Hookface. I've whittled down the party's spells so that they are actually concerned about the dragon's appearance as much as I'd like them to be (they had a much too easy time making mincemeat of Dhorlot and Gottrod, though Vittriss sent them running away to come back a few rounds later buffed up).
I had the same problem with the party wanting to find the Fiery Sanctum instead of bothering to help evacuate Cauldron, except in my case they sent the bard alone to help with the evacuation and the other four of them went down into the underdark.
One corridor full of poison gas, and 6 Con damage on two of them later, they teleported back to the surface to "catch their breath."
The bard and his cohort dealt with the "baby in the window" scenario alone, but the rest of them then got into rescuing the family trapped in the collapsed building.
From the Barbarian: "It's nice to actually save people instead of just killing things and taking their stuff."
Word came from the lower streets that there was a strange mist coming off the lake, and that's where we ended the session. We won't face Hookface until January or February.