The Druid should have full Animal Companion progression.
The Ranger should have Level-3 Animal Companion progression.
The Ranger should NOT have to take a Feat to be able to do this.
The Animal Companion isn't THAT powerful.
It's not so much how powerful the AC is, for the ranger it's not that huge an issue. The druid is alread THAT powerful where he doesn't need another toy.
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There's lots you can do with an animal companion other than fight: scouting, watch-dogging, tracking, and so on....
Does Stan Collymore know about this?
I would have thought that going to watch dogging was a very high-risk activity!
Supposing I don't want to be 'buffed' - what an outrageous suggestion!
How dare you, Mr Feather.
How dare you, Mr Feather.
Maybe not buffed but looking at your avatar your scales could at least use a little polish.
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I'm a little late in joining this discussion, but I'll try to add something useful. I'm all for the ranger being the "pet class". In fact, in my games I eliminated druid's AC, and replaced it with Wilderness Leadership bonus feat at lvl 6. Now the ranger has AC at level one, with progression as original druid's AC.
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I'm a little late in joining this discussion, but I'll try to add something useful. I'm all for the ranger being the "pet class". In fact, in my games I eliminated druid's AC, and replaced it with Wilderness Leadership bonus feat at lvl 6. Now the ranger has AC at level one, with progression as original druid's AC.
I'm OK with no AC for druids at all and Rangers having the AC progression of the former Druid (ie, Ranger level = old Druid level for AC, as you say); it'll create problems with druid encounters in previously printed material but then so will any druid nerf.
Or, as suggested, I'm OK with them picking between two from spells, wildshape and AC, as suggested elsewhere (and which has that benefit, previously mentioned, for showing a clear path to using previously written druid encounters; you just drop one of them).
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Do Druids even need an Animal Companion?
Before all the pet-lovers jump me, let me expand on that;
Sure, they 'hang around with animals, and have them as companions', but do they actually need an 'Animal Companion' as a class feature?
Isn't it something that just naturally follows, when you have maxed-out Survival/Knowledge(nature), spells that charm animals, and spells that awaken/buff animals?
Any Druid can walk off into the wilderness, find a wolf/Dire Bear/T-Rex, befriend it, awaken it, and give it magic goodies. Why does it need to be codified in the class progression?
Would it be reasonable to coopt the leadership rules, and allow Ranger AC to advance as a cohort on top of 1/2 ranger level as druid level for AC non-HD progression, like extra tricks, and other AC features?
By my math, that would allow the Ranger AC to start at 2 HD, and advance to 18 HD at level 20, which would certainly make it a valid combatant at any level. Any thoughts, or too butch? To my mind, this also preserves some limitation on Rangers with T-rexes, as additional AC options occur much later for the Ranger than they would for the Druid, coming at level 8 for Tier 2 ACs, and Level 14 for Tier 3 ACs, and capping with Level 20 for Tier 4 ACs, which I think might be part of the intent of 1/2 class level.
Having the AC progress as a cohort also preserves some benefit to keeping the critter alive, and I really like the flavor of this. On the plus side, most animals are super easy to advance. This does tend to favor animals like wolves, who have a size advancement, over animals that have no size change in their advancement, but that could be addressed in a retool of the animals.
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In my games, druid has more social role than the ranger. In essence, druid is a priest, and priest needs society to fulfill his role. Therefore, it makes much more sense to me (and my players) for ranger to have more powerful AC. Ranger is by definition a lone wolf, guarding the edges of civilization and borders of wilderness. He needs constant and faithful companion. Druid is more of a leader type. With it's spells he can achieve much more than with AC. Combine that with Leadership feat, and you'll have a horde of animal followers.
This may seem like silly question, but why keep the ranger's animal companion tied to the druid ability. Why can't the ranger have his own unique animal companion ability with its own Hit Die and special abilities progression totally separate and different from what a Druid gets? this way we are not stuck discussing if it should be 1/2 for full druid power level, make it its own thing entirely.
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This may seem like silly question, but why keep the ranger's animal companion tied to the druid ability. Why can't the ranger have his own unique animal companion ability with its own Hit Die and special abilities progression totally separate and different from what a Druid gets? this way we are not stuck discussing if it should be 1/2 for full druid power level, make it its own thing entirely.
Well, I guess it's partly to only have one basic mechanic for the two classes. However, the real issue here, I think, is that a bunch of us want the Ranger's AC to be significantly better. A group of people (again including me) don't actually mind, as expressed in a thread in the Druid, Paladin and Cleric design forum, if the Druid loses its AC altogether, of course.
Well, I guess it's partly to only have one basic mechanic for the two classes. However, the real issue here, I think, is that a bunch of us want the Ranger's AC to be significantly better. A group of people (again including me) don't actually mind, as expressed in a thread in the Druid, Paladin and Cleric design forum, if the Druid loses its AC altogether, of course.
Certainly, with the Domain option for Druids in place of the AC, the PFRPG doesn't particularly care if the Druid has the AC as a required class feature mechanic. With that said, the alternate Hunter's Bond ability likewise seems to be a step away from the ACs. The Bonded Item, and Spirt Weapon ideas for the Wizard/Sorceror, and Paladin, respectively, seem to be providing non-critter alternate class features as well.
I think the ranger's AC should at least allow the ranger to have a useful mount and/or combat assistant, and think that Leadership already provides a guideline as to what is useful for any given level. Using any alternate guideline when the limit on AC is so narrow, and the potential of Leadership is so broad, might be a mistake.
Let's assume that the only basis for the AC is Wild Empathy, and the Ranger is simply getting an animal from unfriendly to helpful. At level 5 with 0 bonus to charisma, *any* animal can be made at least indifferent 25% of the time. Or let's base it off of Handle Animal, hand raising an animal of 2 HD would succeed 50% of the time at level 4, when the ranger gets the AC, and scales assuming a continued investment in Handle Animal at 1 HD per level. Shortchanging the advancement of the class feature to less than what the Ranger could possibly obtain with a skill (e.g. top end -- Handraised Roc at DC 33, Handraised Megaraptor at only DC 23) seems just underwhelming. I'd be for stripping out the HD and BAB progression from both ACs, and advancing them in general as cohorts. That way, the only thing that Druid level specifies is natural armor bonus, bonus tricks, strength and dex gains, and evasion. The Ranger AC would only be slightly behind, since both companions would be gaining regular HD advances. And, as a perk, switching out ACs would mean your new companion would lag until it leveled back up to where your old one would have been.
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Well, I guess it's partly to only have one basic mechanic for the two classes. However, the real issue here, I think, is that a bunch of us want the Ranger's AC to be significantly better. A group of people (again including me) don't actually mind, as expressed in a thread in the Druid, Paladin and Cleric design forum, if the Druid loses its AC altogether, of course.Certainly, with the Domain option for Druids in place of the AC, the PFRPG doesn't particularly care if the Druid has the AC as a required class feature mechanic. With that said, the alternate Hunter's Bond ability likewise seems to be a step away from the ACs. The Bonded Item, and Spirt Weapon ideas for the Wizard/Sorceror, and Paladin, respectively, seem to be providing non-critter alternate class features as well.
I think the ranger's AC should at least allow the ranger to have a useful mount and/or combat assistant, and think that Leadership already provides a guideline as to what is useful for any given level. Using any alternate guideline when the limit on AC is so narrow, and the potential of Leadership is so broad, might be a mistake.
Let's assume that the only basis for the AC is Wild Empathy, and the Ranger is simply getting an animal from unfriendly to helpful. At level 5 with 0 bonus to charisma, *any* animal can be made at least indifferent 25% of the time. Or let's base it off of Handle Animal, hand raising an animal of 2 HD would succeed 50% of the time at level 4, when the ranger gets the AC, and scales assuming a continued investment in Handle Animal at 1 HD per level. Shortchanging the advancement of the class feature to less than what the Ranger could possibly obtain with a skill (e.g. top end -- Handraised Roc at DC 33, Handraised Megaraptor at only DC 23) seems just underwhelming. I'd be for stripping out the HD and BAB progression from both ACs, and advancing them in general as cohorts. That way, the only thing that Druid level specifies is natural armor bonus, bonus tricks, strength...
One issue some might have with that direct pinning to Leadership is that some people are concerned that Leadership itself is too powerful (although pinning would be the same however powerful the Leadership feat was made, I guess)...
I actually like the current system for Druids, except I'd give it to Rangers and leave out the Megaraptors and other stuff I think is silly, whilst adopting the 'two out of three from spells/wildshape/animal companion' option for Druids (from another thread in the Clerics, Druids and Paladins design forum).
One issue some might have with that direct pinning to Leadership is that some people are concerned that Leadership itself is too powerful (although pinning would be the same however powerful the Leadership feat was made, I guess)...
I actually like the current system for Druids, except I'd give it to Rangers and leave out the Megaraptors and other stuff I think is silly, whilst adopting the 'two out of three from spells/wildshape/animal companion' option for Druids (from another thread in the Clerics, Druids and Paladins design forum).
That's not altogether unreasonable, but Leadership is an established benchmark which has not yet been altered by the PFRPG. Mainly, from Leadership, I was looking at the cohort leveling mechanic. Earns XP based on your XP, as a ratio of your class level to the Animal Companion's current HD. Animals, with 2 Int, are 1d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, +1 skill progression, and can have as total HD limit class level - 2 or 3. This still caps the Tier 1 ACs at 18 or 17 HD, but by changing what is derived from the AC class feature progression, and separating leveling up from it, the Ranger and Druid can still have the high powered awesome that is a Deionychus or Dire Lion, but will have to nurse it up to a point where it can stay alive at high levels. I am altogether ambivalent about the "gorram T-Rex" and Dire Shark, and wouldn't mind some substantial pruning occuring, especially amongst animals which get size changes in their progression.
Figured people on this thread might be curious about last nights chat.
In another thread he's said the new AC rules are coming soonly... I'm not sure when. Just a teaser for you.
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My major problem with the ranger's animal companion is that their other option seems simply better. I also dislike the option as I have never seen ranger's as buffers. Still, I like choices.
A friend of mine was discussing this and the fact that rangers have much weaker animal companions than druids and why this was/ what could be done about it. We came up with the following idea:
Ranger have animal companions which are meant more as companions than as combatants. Thus rather than giving them a companion which progresses more slowly than a druids give them a different kind of companion. Basically the ranger would get 1 companion per 5 levels. Each companion gives a minor bonus, like that of a familiar. Dog/wolf might give +2 to track, or just expand tracking rules to allow tracking by scent. A ferret or weasel could do minor sleight of hand's as a trick. A hawk could do mage hand type tricks. A horse could give +1 to attacks while mounted. etc. This I feel both differentiates the ranger's companion from that of the druid while keeping the flavor.
I would require that PC be named Dar and restrict his clothing to loincloths :P