General Fighter Feedback

[Jal Dorak]

From my Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk playtest thread:

Valis: NG male human rog3/ftr7 (at time of death)

Spoiler:

hp 104
Init +2; Senses Perception +20
Languages: Common, Elven, Dwarven, Thieves' Cant

AC 30, touch 15, flat-footed 28
SV Fort +12, Ref +10, Will +10; Evasion, +2 vs. fear
Speed 30ft.

Melee +2 adamantine shatterspike +19/+14 (1d8+10/17-20)
BAB +9; CMB +14 (Def 33) +9 to sunder

SA Sneak attack +2d6, armor training +2, weapon training (heavy blades +1)
SQ Trapfinding, talent (stand up), trap sense +1, bravery
Skills: Acrobatics +16, Bluff +11, Climb +12, Disable Device +18, Knowledge (Warfare) +10, Perception +20, Sense Motive +10, Stealth +14, Survival +18
Feats: Blind-Fight, Defensive Combat Training, Dodge, Improved Critical (longsword), Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack, Toughness, Weapon Focus (longsword), Weapon Specialization (longsword)

Equipment: +2 chain shirt, +2 destana, +2 adamantine heavy shield, +2 adamantine shatterspike, cloak of resistance +3, ring of protection +2, amulet of natural armor +1, lens of detection, belt of strength +4, gloves of dexterity +2 and constitution +2, stone of good luck, statue of the silver raven, mwk composite longbow (+3 Str), 20 arrows, mwk thieves' tools, 50ft. silk rope, rations x5, small mirror, sun rod x5, tindertwig, alchemist's fire x2, crowbar, sledgehammer

Keep in mind this is from the Player's sheet, so it may contain errors.

Now for the feedback:

CMB:

Spoiler:

Seems to be making his life too easy. Purchasing a +2 shatterspike adamantine longsword and taking Improved Sunder and Defensive Training his PC has +23 to Sunder attempts and a defensive CMB of 33 (along with an AC of 30). With the exception of other fighters of his level, it is very difficult to resist his Sunder attempts unless I ensure NPCs have Defensive Training (and/or Improved Sunder). I mention this here because fighters are most likely to have this strategy available.

If he wants, he wades into battle and Sunders everything, knowing that the cleric's mending spell will fix some of the treasure he might destroy. These two factors really combine poorly and have ended some combats very quickly. Even if an enemy has 2-3 weapons, he can simply sunder each one in turn.

Will Save:

Spoiler:

Is even more of a target to remove him from the battle. In this particular battle, he was subject to hold person and summarily executed by a dwarf lieutenant with a waraxe. Bravery had little impact on gameplay - fear effects were not common. It's a nice addition, but relatively little value.

CR:

Spoiler:

Granted, not everything is an NPC with weapons, but looking ahead through the adventure, I notice quite a few monsters with low ACs and to-hit. Again, I reiterate, it is nice that the fighter has a good AC effectively making them not worry about low-level combatants (very much feels like 2nd Edition), I am finding that creatures around 2 levels lower than the Fighter often require a natural 20 to hit.

For example, 6 hobgoblin ranger/rogues had no chance to hit the party fighter, even with flanking. Aid another boosted their hit chance to 19-20, but barely dealing enough to bypass stoneskin. The hobgoblin master, CR 7 ranger/fighter, needed an 18 to hit with flank, 16 with aid another. His damage could bypass the stoneskin, but only with luck.

Second example, Flesh Golem wielding a +2 flaming longsword. After a helpful haste from the party sorcerer, the CR 8 golem had to roll an 18 to hit the party fighter. The party fighter, equipped with an adamantine longsword, easily dispatched the golem. I have come to the conclusion that until the monsters are released, they need major tweaking as some CRs are off in regards to to-hit and AC.

My initial suggestion is to have armor training apply to either melee or ranged attacks (possibly with an increase in value, say +1). This would give enemies more options for combating the fighter, and support the ranged/melee outlook the player chooses for their character.

Favored class mechanic:

Spoiler:

I am noticing something as a DM. Almost every NPC the party encounters has extra hp from this and toughness. This essentially negates the benefit of the fighter's Weapon Training.

Weapon and Armor Training:

Spoiler:

Are spaced out enough that a multiclass character does not experience much benefit unless they commit to fighter levels (based on Stillguar (an NPC clr9/ftr6), who was an effective combatant but not much moreso than if he had remained as a cleric). Most of the time he was either a 9th level cleric, or about a 12th level fighter. Had he been all of one (15th level cleric or 15th level fighter) the fight would have been much more deadly. I see this as a good thing, as it means the new fighter class is not unbalancing multiclass characters.

Finally, The General:

Spoiler:

Amply prepared for the PCs. The PCs healed up, and cast stoneskin on the cleric and sorcerer but not the fighter, who had about 40 points remaining. I retooled the General (CR 10 human fighter) to face the PCs using only Pathfinder rules, which meant replacing some feats. Tyraniss the blue dragon was left untouched at CR 8. The fighter charged in again, getting pinned between Tyraniss and the General, who began chipping away at his hp and stoneskin. The dragon used breath weapon on the spellcasters, or full attack to keep the fighter occupied. The fight only lasted 6 rounds, but it was action-packed. Even after the dragon fell, the General held his own, sundering (damaging) the clerics armor, the fighters armor, and even (in the best twist) the cleric's holy symbol! The General fell following several vampiric touch spells from the sorcerer, and hasted full attacks from the fighter.

Now, for interest, here is the satisfying CR 10 General, Pathfinder-style:

Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk wrote:

hp 102
AC 32, touch 19, flat-footed 29
Attack: blade of chaos +21/+21/+16 (1d8+13/17-20)
CMB: +17 (Defense 36), +22 to sunder (Defense 41)
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +9, Will +5; (+3 vs fear, resist cold 20 fire 10)
Special Attacks: Combat Reflexes, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Spring Attack
Feats: Defensive Training, Dodge, Improved Critical (longsword), Mobility, Improved Toughness, Weapon Focus (longsword), Weapon Specialization (longsword).
Gear: 1 potion of cure serious wounds, +2 breastplate, +2 heavy adamantine shield, ring of minor energy resistance (cold), ring of counterspells (hold person), cloak of resistance +1, belt of giant strength +2

Notes: General has 3 rounds of haste as well as shield of faith +3 and resist fire 10 active at start of battle. He has 100 gp more gear than his 3.5 equivalent. Also note than my group is assuming weapon/armor enhancement can add to CMB (sunder or trip), as well as Weapon Focus and Weapon Training.

Valis has been killed twice. Both times as the result of a failed saving throw (hold person and mohrg's paralysis) resulting in a coup de grace. After the second death, the player decided to retire the character.

In summary, the fighter seems to have become so reliant on AC and attacks as to make very little chance of failure in these areas, especially against low level opponents. This seriously affects the CR system, as the cut-off is around 10 levels difference, but the fighter is unaffected by around 2-3 levels. Except, of course, for saving throws, the player agreed with me that they deserve some kind of mettle-like ability to shrug off effects. Mobility has been helped by CMB somewhat, but could also use improvement.

Finally, my biggest complaint in relation to fighters. Compared to rogues, they now get the same amount of bonus "combat feats" (minus 1st level feat), because the rogue can select combat feats (or better abilities) as their talents. I find this extremely unfair to the fighter, who gets feats as a primary class feature, yet the rogue matches them step for step at 2nd level and beyond.

[Jason Bulmahn]

I appreciate your comments, but I am worried that they are a big skewed due to the character in question. First off, he has a bit too much treasure for a character of his level and some of those choices are a bit questionable. The destana has never been my favorite item, as it allows you to get armor bonuses for too cheap (getting +2 armor and a +2 destana gives you a +4 bonus above what you can normally wear and only costs 8K gp, whereas +4 armor costs twice that). In addition, the +2 adamantine shatterspike makes it real easy to sunder weapons. The shatterspike is pretty good along these lines already, but making it +2 and adamantine just makes it ridiculously simple, regardless of the level of the character.

Those things said, you do bring up some valid points.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

[Archade]

Jal Dorak wrote:

Finally, my biggest complaint in relation to fighters. Compared to rogues, they now get the same amount of bonus "combat feats" (minus 1st level feat), because the rogue can select combat feats (or better abilities) as their talents. I find this extremely unfair to the fighter, who gets feats as a primary class feature, yet the rogue matches them step for step at 2nd level and beyond.

You realize they can only pick each rogue talent once, so they only get one Combat feat, right?

[Jal Dorak]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

I appreciate your comments, but I am worried that they are a big skewed due to the character in question. First off, he has a bit too much treasure for a character of his level and some of those choices are a bit questionable. The destana has never been my favorite item, as it allows you to get armor bonuses for too cheap (getting +2 armor and a +2 destana gives you a +4 bonus above what you can normally wear and only costs 8K gp, whereas +4 armor costs twice that). In addition, the +2 adamantine shatterspike makes it real easy to sunder weapons. The shatterspike is pretty good along these lines already, but making it +2 and adamantine just makes it ridiculously simple, regardless of the level of the character.

Those things said, you do bring up some valid points.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I completely agree. The character is definitely optimized, and I had a hard time dealing with it as a DM. But I felt it necessary to point out this relatively simple method. Shatterspike was the deal-breaker. Perhaps you could clarify in the magic item section that the "unique" items cannot be altered - ie. shatterspike would be just that - it is not another material, size, weapon, or bonus. Otherwise it would just be another weapon enhancement.

The destana crept by me unnoticed until I posted this, I normally do not allow it. That would have helped a little, but several enemies would still have required a 20 (but others a 12-14 instead, which is more reasonable).

The wealth breakdown was the result of having 3 PCs, 1 level higher, in the prefab adventure. The wealth distribution was not exactly even, depending on what they found. Ideally I would have edited or maintained Wealth by Level, but since it was a playtest I was going right out of the book.

Finally, I can attest that making NPC Fighters is super-fast. I made over 20 between 3rd and 8th level in around an 1-1/2 hours.

[Jal Dorak]

Archade wrote:

Jal Dorak wrote:

Finally, my biggest complaint in relation to fighters. Compared to rogues, they now get the same amount of bonus "combat feats" (minus 1st level feat), because the rogue can select combat feats (or better abilities) as their talents. I find this extremely unfair to the fighter, who gets feats as a primary class feature, yet the rogue matches them step for step at 2nd level and beyond.

You realize they can only pick each rogue talent once, so they only get one Combat feat, right?

I think that is a problem with the wording. You are likely correct, because it says "an individual talent more than once" but then the wording of combat trick says "in place of a talent" which implies any talent can be replaced, and since it is a different feat...it's just confusing, but your reading makes it more palatable.

But really, some of the rogue talents are pretty nifty anyway. I still think they outweigh a straight fighters feats when you factor in the new sneak attack and skills.

[Mistwalker]

Jal Dorak,

Any reason why the 6 hobgoblin ranger/rogues didn't have 5 aid another, who with flanking, should have gotten a +12 to hit the fighter (guesstimate that the hobgoblins had about a +7 to hit), bringing the total to around +19, so an 11 would have hit the fighter, doing sneak attack damage as well as regular damage?

Just trying to understand the situation.

I have had stock kobolds almost take down a mid level fully armored and buffed paladin doing exactly that (18 kobolds, working in teams of 6).

[Jal Dorak]

Mistwalker wrote:

Jal Dorak,

Any reason why the 6 hobgoblin ranger/rogues didn't have 5 aid another, who with flanking, should have gotten a +12 to hit the fighter (guesstimate that the hobgoblins had about a +7 to hit), bringing the total to around +19, so an 11 would have hit the fighter, doing sneak attack damage as well as regular damage?

Just trying to understand the situation.

I have had stock kobolds almost take down a mid level fully armored and buffed paladin doing exactly that (18 kobolds, working in teams of 6).

They were on a 5ft-wide ledge, the fighter jumped off a platform to get to them. So only 2 gobbos could attack the fighter in melee in one round, meaning 1 Aid Another + flank for +4 to hit. Believe me, I would have done what you suggest in an open area. As soon as the fighter figured out the Aid trick, he just dropped the flanker with a single full attack.

I love Aid Another - especially with Grapples. My Red Hand of Doom PbP will figure that out in a few months. Hehehe.

I also wanted to point out, pursuant to the Wealth issue, that at the time of death Valis was one encounter away from reaching 11th level, which would bring his wealth closer to the guideline.

Oh, another point: Jason co-wrote the adventure I am using, so hopefully he knows which encounters I am referring to.

Final point: the other authors were Erik Mona and James Jacobs.

[JoelF847]

I know this is the fighter feedback forum, but in this case, I think another issue with the shatterspike is that it hasn't been updated for Pathfinder yet. The shatterspike used to give a +4 to sunder, similar to how improved sunder worked. Now that improved sunder only gives +2, the shatterspike should probably only give +2 also. This would mitigate this particular build some.

[Jal Dorak]

JoelF847 wrote:

I know this is the fighter feedback forum, but in this case, I think another issue with the shatterspike is that it hasn't been updated for Pathfinder yet. The shatterspike used to give a +4 to sunder, similar to how improved sunder worked. Now that improved sunder only gives +2, the shatterspike should probably only give +2 also. This would mitigate this particular build some.

Agreed. I discussed this with the player, but we agreed that in the interest of testing the rules as they are now I would work it as in the Web Enhancement (modified for adamantine and an extra +1 bonus).

Of course, if you look at The General's statblock above, you can see how the fighter met his match (more than his match, actually) and no super-sunder-weapon needed.

shatterspike is actually the reason I rules that magic weapons add to CMB for maneuvers with that weapon, as the item entry implies the magic bonus is added to the CMB and then an extra bit on top of that.