So glancing through the skill section I noticed that one of the nice changes to the skills is the +2/+2 skills now scale, when you get 10 ranks in the skill the bonus increases to +4 in that skill... nice.
Then I noticed the same thing happened with Skill Focus, when you get 10 ranks in a skill with Skill focus the bonus for skill focus is +6... If you take the two feats for a single skill the total bonus is +10, this is quite a sizable bonus in a single skill. I guess on the other hand that if you put 2 feats into improving a skill and max out it's ranks it should be awesome but still...
I see the biggest user of this as the rogue. Some of his skills are going to get super charged by this.
10th level rogue with stealthy, sf(stealth), 10 ranks, and an 18 dex. That's a bonus of +24 not counting any magic items (Boots and Cloak are easily obtainable by this level. This makes Sniping, and using bluff to hide much easier than previously.
Hmm.... Should these two bonuses stack?
Hiding is still auto beaten by a half dozen things offhand. If skill boosting feats are actually worth considering, Paizo did something right with them. Of course, given how trivially easy skills are to boost, +10 is really not as great as it sounds.
Hiding is still auto beaten by a half dozen things offhand. If skill boosting feats are actually worth considering, Paizo did something right with them. Of course, given how trivially easy skills are to boost, +10 is really not as great as it sounds.
No but the point is that this is on top of whatever other skill boosts you do. Your typical rogue is going to have another +10 in magic item boosts by this time as well.
While stealth is 'autobeaten' in quite a some ways it is quite effective against a large number of creatures. Also, while I used stealth as an example, it is just that, you can do this with any skill. For example you can use this same idea to boost flying significantly.
Which brings us back around to if skill boosting feats might be worth a slot now, there might be something right about them this time around. Though given that you can say... get +28 to a rankless skill pretty easily, high numbers are devalued. This is without looking at the guidelines for just what super high skill checks can do.
Example: DC 90 Balance check to walk on water. Which do you think you'll get first: A low level spell whenever you want it to walk on water, or a +80 modifier to a skill so that take 10 = auto success?
As you can see, skills aren't that great even at insane levels with very few exceptions.
As you can see, skills aren't that great even at insane levels with very few exceptions.
Umm... no, but they have the advantage of always being available and at zero resource cost. Spells are situationally available (is it memorized, do you have a scroll?), and always cost some resources, even if it's just a daily spell use. You are basically implying that the skill system is pointless and you are better off just playing a caster... Which is entirely possible but not everyone wants to play a caster.
If you are suggesting that getting an extra +5 in feat bonuses is Ok because it's level appropriate, I can buy that. This is sort of what I was getting at. The player has invested two feats in a skill and he should be able to do crazy things.
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So glancing through the skill section I noticed that one of the nice changes to the skills is the +2/+2 skills now scale, when you get 10 ranks in the skill the bonus increases to +4 in that skill... nice.
Then I noticed the same thing happened with Skill Focus, when you get 10 ranks in a skill with Skill focus the bonus for skill focus is +6... If you take the two feats for a single skill the total bonus is +10, this is quite a sizable bonus in a single skill. I guess on the other hand that if you put 2 feats into improving a skill and max out it's ranks it should be awesome but still...
I see the biggest user of this as the rogue. Some of his skills are going to get super charged by this.
10th level rogue with stealthy, sf(stealth), 10 ranks, and an 18 dex. That's a bonus of +24 not counting any magic items (Boots and Cloak are easily obtainable by this level. This makes Sniping, and using bluff to hide much easier than previously.
Hmm.... Should these two bonuses stack?
I feel that the amount of boost one gets as they go up is too great of a jump. Everyone talks about the power creep, or power curve or whatever - which exponentially increases a charactes power.
For instance as a character advances, special abilities based on a stat have their DC increased, and their number of times a day increased and their potential power increased. Its not one aspect - but three - which creates an exponential boost.
I feel that the boosts on these feats are a good idea - but too great of an exponential boost.
As an alternative, what i think would work better is a less severe spike. As it stands, the Skill Focus provides +3 and then from level 9 to 10 it doubles providing a potential swing of +4 (with a skill point being added at 10th level).
Perhaps Skill Focus is better off with something like: "+2 and +1 per 5 ranks"
The other feats that provide a +2 to two arbitrary skills would then be in balance with "+1 and +1 more / 5 ranks"
That to me makes more sense than sudden drastic jumps in power from one level to the next.
EDIT: I don't have a problem with them stacking per se; if a character really wanted to spend two feats to be REALLY good at a skill; but no as written as I clarified my opinions of it being too lucrative of a jump; however, if the bonuses were more restrained - stacking should be no problem.
Robert
As you can see, skills aren't that great even at insane levels with very few exceptions.Umm... no, but they have the advantage of always being available and at zero resource cost. Spells are situationally available (is it memorized, do you have a scroll?), and always cost some resources, even if it's just a daily spell use. You are basically implying that the skill system is pointless and you are better off just playing a caster... Which is entirely possible but not everyone wants to play a caster.
If you are suggesting that getting an extra +5 in feat bonuses is Ok because it's level appropriate, I can buy that. This is sort of what I was getting at. The player has invested two feats in a skill and he should be able to do crazy things.
I was saying that 1: If this make skill feats worth taking, that's an improvement and 2: Skills do very, very little so even if you get +243 it's still not that great. Well, there are about 2 skills that do something incredible at that level but the rest just gets you lame stuff like DC 90 walk on water. Long before you can hit DC 90, you can get the ability to walk on water at will via magic if you care. Just look at the cost of skill boosters.
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I was saying that 1: If this make skill feats worth taking, that's an improvement and 2: Skills do very, very little so even if you get +243 it's still not that great. Well, there are about 2 skills that do something incredible at that level but the rest just gets you lame stuff like DC 90 walk on water. Long before you can hit DC 90, you can get the ability to walk on water at will via magic if you care. Just look at the cost of skill boosters.As you can see, skills aren't that great even at insane levels with very few exceptions.Umm... no, but they have the advantage of always being available and at zero resource cost. Spells are situationally available (is it memorized, do you have a scroll?), and always cost some resources, even if it's just a daily spell use. You are basically implying that the skill system is pointless and you are better off just playing a caster... Which is entirely possible but not everyone wants to play a caster.
If you are suggesting that getting an extra +5 in feat bonuses is Ok because it's level appropriate, I can buy that. This is sort of what I was getting at. The player has invested two feats in a skill and he should be able to do crazy things.
Mmm my level 22 Fighter can't cast Walk on Water at will... I must be missing something. Course I can't tell you how many times he has nearly drowned in that plate armor... So I really should go back and check and find that Walk on Water at will ability. Where is that?
The main character this is going to affect is the Rogue. Very few other classes are going to invest two feats to get the bonus. Then, the Rogue gets to pick two skills that are exceptional. Say Disable Device and Perception. So our happy Rogue can nearly always find the trap and disable it.
I do not find that any more powerful than, say a Wizard who can maximize the damage from his spells, or cast in half the time. Or say a Fighter who invests in Improved Tripping and an Exotic Weapon Proficiency to make him a Trip Master. Nothing wrong with either of those, so why not for a Rogue?
Level 22 = 25 ranks (if he actually had Balance as a class skill) + whatever else. Which means he'd either need around a +50 skill booster (incredibly expensive) or an item that lets him cast a 3rd level spell at will (far cheaper). Alternately he can get up to around level 75, where everyone is an Overgod anyways.
Mainly I'm mentioning how little skills do at high levels to shoot down anyone claiming it to be overpowered.
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Level 22 = 25 ranks (if he actually had Balance as a class skill) + whatever else. Which means he'd either need around a +50 skill booster (incredibly expensive) or an item that lets him cast a 3rd level spell at will (far cheaper). Alternately he can get up to around level 75, where everyone is an Overgod anyways.
Mainly I'm mentioning how little skills do at high levels to shoot down anyone claiming it to be overpowered.
I don't understand, how are you getting 25 ranks in a skill at level 22? Could you explain, please.
It's overpowered because with minimal effort you can put your Perception and Disable Device checks so high that they only fail on a natural 1, making traps and locks obsolete as challenges. PRPG has made changes to correct 3.5 in this regard, boosting skills more will just undo those changes.
Max skill ranks = 3 + level (22) = 25? Course CC is half that, I was illustrating why his example was invalid.
Skills do not auto fail on a 1. Traps stop scaling at CR 10 and therefore become obsolete. For that matter, a cantrip is as good as the Rogue's DC 34 Search check to find the damn thing. In fact it's better, because it doesn't fail.
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for the most part - most of you are correct that most skills aren't going to be too much; as they don't do a lot - and their physics-defying capabilities don't manifest until some unreachable amount like +60; so for the record, I dont so much mind the amount of eventual boost the feats provide - I just have a problem with how suddenly the boosts jump in power. I would much prefer a more gradual increase that eventually tops out later in the character's career. Having so many things scale so suddenly and noticeably creates a power creep issue from one APL to the next.
Robert
for the most part - most of you are correct that most skills aren't going to be too much; as they don't do a lot - and their physics-defying capabilities don't manifest until some unreachable amount like +60; so for the record, I dont so much mind the amount of eventual boost the feats provide - I just have a problem with how suddenly the boosts jump in power. I would much prefer a more gradual increase that eventually tops out later in the character's career. Having so many things scale so suddenly and noticeably creates a power creep issue from one APL to the next.
This does feel a bit odd but I don't think it's that bad.
To be honest I would love to see more crazy uses for skills... the sort of Jason Bourne style on the edge of believability things. Under PRPG with some high DC stuff you can:
Pinpoint invisible foes with sound: DC 30 (25 if they are armored)
Pinpoint invisible orc with smell: DC 25
Pinpoint invisible human with smell: DC 35
Jump a 30' crevasse: DC 30 (DC 26 buys you a DC 20 reflex to catch the edge)
Jump a 10' wall: DC 40
Run between a Juvenile Red Dragon's legs: DC 36
Walk up a rope at a 45 degree angle: DC 25
Track Someone across Firm Ground at a run: DC 35
I know all this stuff can be duplicated by spells... if the caster has the right spells memorized or has the appropriate item to expend, that's not the point.
I missed that line. Well either way that just means it's as slow or slower.
I missed that line. Well either way that just means it's as slow or slower.You apparently also missed the part in the Beta where there are CR 19 traps.
So I did. But looking at it I see I didn't miss much. Let's see... I see 9th level spell traps (which were CR 10, but got inflated for no reason), I see a low accuracy spear with a poison that is very low DC for the level (low DCs are also the reason why level 9 spell traps were only CR 10), I see laughable stuff like 8d6 damage (Oh noes!)...
Eh. Just looks like they turned traps into free experience by raising the CR without actually making them any more dangerous.
For that matter, the CRs look quite arbitrary.
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for the most part - most of you are correct that most skills aren't going to be too much; as they don't do a lot - and their physics-defying capabilities don't manifest until some unreachable amount like +60; so for the record, I dont so much mind the amount of eventual boost the feats provide - I just have a problem with how suddenly the boosts jump in power. I would much prefer a more gradual increase that eventually tops out later in the character's career. Having so many things scale so suddenly and noticeably creates a power creep issue from one APL to the next.This does feel a bit odd but I don't think it's that bad.
To be honest I would love to see more crazy uses for skills... the sort of Jason Bourne style on the edge of believability things. Under PRPG with some high DC stuff you can:
Pinpoint invisible foes with sound: DC 30 (25 if they are armored)
Pinpoint invisible orc with smell: DC 25
Pinpoint invisible human with smell: DC 35
Jump a 30' crevasse: DC 30 (DC 26 buys you a DC 20 reflex to catch the edge)
Jump a 10' wall: DC 40
Run between a Juvenile Red Dragon's legs: DC 36
Walk up a rope at a 45 degree angle: DC 25
Track Someone across Firm Ground at a run: DC 35I know all this stuff can be duplicated by spells... if the caster has the right spells memorized or has the appropriate item to expend, that's not the point.
Good point - and IF there was significant "Jason Bourne" or "Jackie-Chan" type stunts built into the system with DCs in the 35 - 45 range, then I would be thrilled for capabilities of skills to reach that.
Again, I'm not against making the skills have high bonuses - just against the sudden jumps of 9 ranks to 10 ranks providing an extra +3. A more gradual increase IMO helps the power creep at higher levels - that cause DMs to pull their hair out when one level all is controllable and suddenly in the matter of one level bonus skyrocket, Save or Die spells are available, etc etc etc......
Its just the too much at once is my beef.
Robert
Good point - and IF there was significant "Jason Bourne" or "Jackie-Chan" type stunts built into the system with DCs in the 35 - 45 range, then I would be thrilled for capabilities of skills to reach that.
Again, I'm not against making the skills have high bonuses - just against the sudden jumps of 9 ranks to 10 ranks providing an extra +3. A more gradual increase IMO helps the power creep at higher levels - that cause DMs to pull their hair out when one level all is controllable and suddenly in the matter of one level bonus skyrocket, Save or Die spells are available,...
If you did +2 +1/every 5 ranks it would go smoother but would actually add more 'power creep' into the whole skills system. When I sat and thought about it though I realized that it having it bump up all at once isn't that big an issue. If you take both feats at first level you get +5 on the spot. Why is it so bad to get a second similar bump?
I will likely come up with my own list of things a player can do with 30+ skill checks, the idea is intriguing.
Hmm.... Should these two bonuses stack?They should stack, but they shouldn't both increase at the same number of ranks. Skill Focus should go up to +6 at 8 ranks and the +2/+2 feats should go up to +4 at 16 ranks (or some such).
This makes a lot of sense, perhaps the +2/+2 feats go up at 10 ranks, Skill Focus could go up 1 for every 4 ranks so at 12th level skill focus would get +3.