Today we have begun converting characters. Unfortunately, we have run into several issues which significantly slowed us down.
1. Cleric Domain bonus spells.
Problems:
- Domain powers, bonus skills and bonus spells are described in different place then Cleric class - Domain section should contain reference page or at least information, where Domain power sections are described.
- Domain entry quoted: Beta wrote: Domain Powers (Su): Each cleric must choose a deity. Each deity has a number of domains associated with its faith, and its clerics must choose two of these domains to focus on. Each domain grants a number of domain powers dependent upon the level of the cleric, as well as a number of bonus spells. A cleric gains both of the listed powers and bonus spells granted by her domains at each of the listed levels. See the Spells Chapter for more information.
If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, you still
select two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations.
- Domain Powers are not all "Su", i.e. they are not all of Supernatural type.
- Domain Powers bonus spells are labelled as spell like abilities, i.e. "Sp".
For designers' information, this is how the abbreviations are defined in SRD (from Monsters, Statistic block, abilities): SRD wrote: A special ability is either extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su). Bonus spells granted by Domain Powers should be clearly defined as either Spells or Spell-like abilities, because there are differences between them (SRD to the rescue again): Beta wrote: A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
2. Sorcerer.
- Sorcerer class entry lacks information on delay of casting of metamagic feat enhanced spells. The delay is implied in descriptions of Bloodlines, however it is not clearly defined in class section.
3. Wizard.
This entry contains a number of things which may be difficult to interpret (Beta, p.194): Beta wrote: Arcane schools grant one ability at 1st level, 8th level, and 20th level, as noted in their description. Unless otherwise noted, these abilities are activated by using a standard action. The wizard's level is used when determining the caster level of these effects. The DC for any save is equal to 10 + the spell's level + the caster's Charisma modifier. Arcane school powers that mimic spells are spell-like abilities, while the others are supernatural. - Charisma? Charisma???
- Why mention supernatural and spell-like part? Isn't it something described in the listing of School Powers?
Regards,
Ruemere
yep charisma, just like Cleric domains.
Whats wrong with that?
1) Cleric Domain Bonus spells: Clerics gain Supernatural abilities at 1st and 8th level; the DC of these abilities (when applicable) is Charisma-based (just like any other Supernatural ability). They gain bonus SPELLS (Wisdom-based)at 2nd, 4th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level; the reason these are listed as (Sp) is because in the Aplha version these were effectively Spell-like abilities, but in the Beta they decided to revert them to actual spell-slots (see pag 176 of the Beta version, in the lower-left paragraph). Obviously, the (Sp) is a legacy from the Alpha they forgot to delete...
2) Sorcerers: the rules for the "delay" of metamagic spells cast by Sorcerers is in the Metamagic feats section of the Beta (pag 77, lower-left section). Note that in PFRPG, Quicken Spell is now a feat that a spontaneous caster CAN use (previously, it was useless due to the increased casting time)
3) Wizards: the Supernatural abilities a Wizard gains at 1st, 8th, and 20th are Charisma-based, since they follow the normal rules for Supernatural abilities; the SPELLS a Wizards gains as bonus spells are, obviusly, Intelligence-based.
The only problem I have with converting Cleric characters is that the bonus domain spells are granted at even levels.
Let's say I have a 3rd level cleric in a prefab adventure with the Trickery domain.
In the adventure, he is likely to have invisibility prepared as a bonus domain spell, and probably be using it in his tactics.
In PRPG, he does not yet know invisibility (gets it at 4th level), and therefore just reading the bonus domain spells in his statblock doesn't work (not backwards compatible), and it invalidates his entire tactical layout.
This is a big concern for me, I know for players it is nice to get things at every level (which is why they are at even levels), but as a DM it is genuinely frustrating.
The Wraith wrote: 1) Cleric Domain Bonus spells: Clerics gain Supernatural abilities at 1st and 8th level; the DC of these abilities (when applicable) is Charisma-based (just like any other Supernatural ability). I'm sorry, but unless it is changed by Pathfinder BETA, the SRD nowhere specifies that Supernatural abilities are supposed to be Charisma based.
SRD wrote: Special Attacks and Special Qualities
Many creatures have unusual abilities. A monster entry breaks these abilities into special attacks and special qualities.
The latter category includes defenses, vulnerabilities, and other special abilities that are not modes of attack. A special ability is either extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su). Additional information (when needed) is provided in the creature's descriptive text.
When a special ability allows a saving throw, the kind of save and the save DC is noted in the descriptive text. Most saving throws against special abilities have DCs calculated as follows: 10 + 1/2 the attacker's racial Hit Dice + the relevant ability modifer.
The save DC is given in the creature's description along with the ability on which the DC is based.
Also check this Astral Deva entry from SRD:
SRD wrote: Stun (Su): If an astral deva strikes an opponent twice in one round with its mace, that creature must succeed on a DC 22 Fortitude save or be stunned for 1d6 rounds. The save DC is Strength-based. We are going to playtest this change, but still, the point of the change eludes me - is it a way for force MAD syndrome on new classes or a ploy to reduce strength of Clerics and Wizards? Hmm. Scratch the Clerics, they already have decent Charisma scores because of Channel Energy.
The Wraith wrote: They gain bonus SPELLS (Wisdom-based)at 2nd, 4th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level; the reason these are listed as (Sp) is because in the Aplha version these were effectively Spell-like abilities, but in the Beta they decided to revert them to actual spell-slots (see pag 176 of the Beta version, in the lower-left paragraph). Obviously, the (Sp) is a legacy from the Alpha they forgot to delete... Thanks for clarifying this.
The Wraith wrote: 2) Sorcerers: the rules for the "delay" of metamagic spells cast by Sorcerers is in the Metamagic feats section of the Beta (pag 77, lower-left section). Note that in PFRPG, Quicken Spell is now a feat that a spontaneous caster CAN use (previously, it was useless due to the increased casting time) I did just that (i.e. new about Quicken becoming available and actually usable). I just think that class relevant information should be in class section (or at least there should be reference) - novice players would appreciate this.
The Wraith wrote: 3) Wizards: the Supernatural abilities a Wizard gains at 1st, 8th, and 20th are Charisma-based, since they follow the normal rules for Supernatural abilities; the SPELLS a Wizards gains as bonus spells are, obviusly, Intelligence-based. Again, please note that neither Spells, nor Spell-like abilities or Supernatural abilities have assigned abilities by default.
While it's rather easy to guess that spell-like abilities mimicking class spells are using class primary ability as base for determining DC, it should be definitely stated in description of each special ability which base ability is to be used.
This is a standard approach, started with SRD and core rulebooks, and followed by most decent monster and class books.
The reason for this is pretty simple - most Supernatural abilities are based on primary ability for any class or monster. If you give Earthquake Stomp (Su) to Tarrasque, you are unlikely to use Charisma for determining DC. Strength or Constitution are much more appropriate here.
Regards,
Ruemere
ruemere wrote: The Wraith wrote:
2) Sorcerers: the rules for the "delay" of metamagic spells cast by Sorcerers is in the Metamagic feats section of the Beta (pag 77, lower-left section). Note that in PFRPG, Quicken Spell is now a feat that a spontaneous caster CAN use (previously, it was useless due to the increased casting time)
I did just that (i.e. new about Quicken becoming available and actually usable). I just think that class relevant information should be in class section (or at least there should be reference) - novice players would appreciate this.
Well, rules pertaining to spontaneous spellcasters are relevant to sorcerers and bards; I don't think it's necessary to repeat those rules twice.
ruemere wrote:
I'm sorry, but unless it is changed by Pathfinder BETA, the SRD nowhere specifies that Supernatural abilities are supposed to be Charisma based.
Oops, my mistake... you are right, I wrote about Supernatural abilities but I was thinking about the general rules for SPELL-LIKE abilities (and so, the Charisma mistake...).
From the SRD:
"The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is:
10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Cha modifier."
However, as I stated before, none of the abilities from Cleric Domains or from the Wizard Arcane School Powers are Spell-like abilities... they are either Supernatural abilites (and the Beta lists that are Charisma-based) or actual spell slots with a fixed spell inside (and so, they follow the normal rules for spells of the class - that is, Wisdom-based for Clerics and Intelligence-based for Wizards).
hogarth wrote: [...]
Well, rules pertaining to spontaneous spellcasters are relevant to sorcerers and bards; I don't think it's necessary to repeat those rules twice.
You are entirely correct from expiediency point of view. However, when dealing with novice players or people who lack experience in playing spontaneous casters, it may become a problem.
Also, the class entry for sorcerer looks like this:
<class info>
<class traits>
<bloodlines>
<indirect information on metamagic feats and lack of delay in casting time>
Basically, in order to follow the information flow wihout page flipping by the time you get to "<indirect..." you should have been already informed about interaction between metamagic feats and spontaneous casters.
Again, it's not necessary to repeat information, however providing reference would help a lot.
I have found out it since two of may players requested confirmation on calculation of the delay in Pathfinder BETA.
Regards,
Ruemere
The Wraith wrote: ruemere wrote:
I'm sorry, but unless it is changed by Pathfinder BETA, the SRD nowhere specifies that Supernatural abilities are supposed to be Charisma based.
Oops, my mistake... you are right, I wrote about Supernatural abilities but I was thinking about the general rules for SPELL-LIKE abilities (and so, the Charisma mistake...).
From the SRD:
"The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is:
10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Cha modifier."
However, as I stated before, none of the abilities from Cleric Domains or from the Wizard Arcane School Powers are Spell-like abilities... they are either Supernatural abilites (and the Beta lists that are Charisma-based) or actual spell slots with a fixed spell inside (and so, they follow the normal rules for spells of the class - that is, Wisdom-based for Clerics and Intelligence-based for Wizards). Oh, I did not know that. Could you tell me where to look for this quote?
regards,
Ruemere
ruemere wrote:
Oh, I did not know that. Could you tell me where to look for this quote?
regards,
Ruemere
The quote for Spell-like abilities is on the "Revised (v.3.5) System Reference Document" (from Wizards site) under the header "Types, Subtypes and Special Abilities"; there, under "Special Abilities", look for "Spell-like", it's just one paragraph before "Supernatural". I know that it's well hidden because if somebody tries to look only to "Special Abilities and Conditions" (the first logic link where somebody usually look, like myself did) the quote is not present...
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