| Saern |
One of my ultra-novice players (see "On Newbs, Part One") has created a bard for the group's Eberron campaign. He is at the stage of character experimentation where he listens to the available options we tell him and he picks one that grabs his fancy (again, without understanding what in the world it means). This has resulted in a very strange combination of abilities for a bard. The exact details are irrelevant because, after some consideration, I came up with a backstory/mechanical theme for the character that would require some changes anyway, and he decied to go with it because he liked my suggestions. I had never heard of nor contemplated this character concept before, but here it is: a demonic bard.
This bard is possessed by a powerful demon, possibly the spectral remnant of a balor. We've come up with a suitable explanation and list of roleplaying tips and quirks, but the mechanics could use some fleshing out. This bard is going to be warrior first, singer second. The reason for the mention of a balor is that he's going to try to do two-weapon fighting with a shortsword and a whip (both flaming when he gets the funds to enchant them so).
However, the party already has a rogue/fighter using a spiked chain and a warforged fighter with the greatsword/Power Attack build. I'm pretty sure the player will notice his lack of combat power next to these people very quickly and become dissatisfied with the character.
So, what would be a good set of options for this extremely inexperienced player? Right now, I'm thinking Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm and Trip for his whip, then two-weapon fighting a bit later. Weapon Finesse is also highly recommended, of course. Potions of enlarge person would probably help him overcome the lower damage potential, but it can be an expensive resource to continually maintain (we just hit 3rd level in the campaign). So, what suggestions do you have?
Jal Dorak
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I'd go with the Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip with the whip. It can be a very effective way to help on the battlefield without dealing damage. Also take advantage of flanking and Aid Another (if you explain it to the player).
With the whips reach you can stay behind the tougher fighters, even the spiked-chain-wielder. Just remember that using a whip provokes attacks of opportunity, but you can use it against adjacent foes.
| SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
I DM for a half-drow bard/swashbuckler that uses 2-weapon fighting with her whip and rapier. She makes great use of Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Improved Disarm. She's just often frustrated that she doesn't have the damage potential of the duskblade/swashbuckler/fortune's friend, halfling rogue/swashbuckler/invisible blade/master thrower/whisperknife, goliath monk, or human ranger/rogue archer, let alone the blasting powers of the raptoran evoker or aquatic elf druid. She's good at buffing the tanks with Bardic Music and Haste, Mirror Image, etc. And the half-elf beguiler has been kind enough not to step on her toes with the spell buffs.
| pres man |
Remember that a whip also has a 15 ft reach. Possibly think about whirlwind attack combined with improved trip. Pump up the strength score more than the dex, forget weapon finesse, you need that strength for trip attacks. Also he might eventually want to get vorpal on that whip (it is a slashing weapon). Then facing a red dragon, "Oh look you have a flaming whip, well I am immune to fire and your whip won't even ..." "Only crap you just took that dragon's head off!" "Yeah, he talked too much." Or look into the whip dagger from 3rd edition.
One thing to point out with bards, all the extra damage that people due to their inspire courage. Each extra point of damage, each time someone hits when they would have missed is all damage that could be attributed to him. If he is a fan of KOTOR fan, you might suggest he call his inspire courage, "combat mediation". Bards rock, they are the core Gish.
| pres man |
Umm...pres man, I'm not sure how you apply the Vorpal quality to a weapon that only deals nonlethal damage.
Now, if we're talking a bladed whip, or stingray whip, that's another matter. ;)
Easy, first you take a look at the description of vorpal.
Vorpal
This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off. A vorpal weapon must be a slashing weapon. (If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.)Strong necromancy and transmutation; CL 18th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, circle of death, keen edge; Price +5 bonus.
And you notice the only requirement for the type of weapon it can be put on is that it must be a slashing weapon. Then you refer to the whip entry.
Whip 1 gp 1d2 1d3 ×2 — 2 lb. Slashing
And you see it is a slashing weapon. Ergo you can have a vorpal whip. There is nothing in the vorpal entry that says anything about having to be able to damage the target. Also non-lethal melee weapons can do lethal damage with a penalty on the attack (as can lethal melee weapons doing non-lethal damage).
Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage
You can use a melee weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage instead, but you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll.Lethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Nonlethal Damage
You can use a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, including an unarmed strike, to deal lethal damage instead, but you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll.
Believe me, I was just as surprised when I first learned of this combo.
kessukoofah
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A bunch of stuff
I think this is where common sense is supposed to come in. technically you're right by what is written, but a whip does non-lethal damage. removing someone's head from their shoulders is, as far as i know (but hey, i don't have a medical degree), lethal. therefore a whip couldn't do it.
yes, there is that clause about the non-lethal weapons doing lethal damage, so i suppose if you take the penalty every turn it works, but i still can't see it happening (I can see a whip doing lethal damage like choking someone to death, or breaking of the spine and internal organs, just not severing a head), and i wouldn't allow it at my table unless the player could somehow justify it.
| pres man |
pres man wrote:A bunch of stuffI think this is where common sense is supposed to come in. technically you're right by what is written, but a whip does non-lethal damage. removing someone's head from their shoulders is, as far as i know (but hey, i don't have a medical degree), lethal. therefore a whip couldn't do it.
yes, there is that clause about the non-lethal weapons doing lethal damage, so i suppose if you take the penalty every turn it works, but i still can't see it happening, and i wouldn't allow it at my table unless the player could somehow justify it.
Then a flaming whip does not do lethal flaming damage but non-lethal flaming damage?
kessukoofah
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kessukoofah wrote:Then a flaming whip does not do lethal flaming damage but non-lethal flaming damage?pres man wrote:A bunch of stuffI think this is where common sense is supposed to come in. technically you're right by what is written, but a whip does non-lethal damage. removing someone's head from their shoulders is, as far as i know (but hey, i don't have a medical degree), lethal. therefore a whip couldn't do it.
yes, there is that clause about the non-lethal weapons doing lethal damage, so i suppose if you take the penalty every turn it works, but i still can't see it happening, and i wouldn't allow it at my table unless the player could somehow justify it.
basically, at my table, yes. i'm not exactly sure how the rules handle it, but flaming just does fire damage. it does not specify lethal fire damage. therefore i would make it dependant on the damage type of the weapon itself. Basially a flaming sword can apply the fire to all kinds of internal sensative fleshy bits. a whip can only effect the outer surface or skin. or at least that's how i see it.
| Rezdave |
So, what suggestions do you have?
This is an Eberron campaign on top of all the other problems you have?
Saern, you have to END this campaign now, get them all back to being 1st-Level Fighters in a generic low-fantasy setting and really teach them the rules.
Right now, your entire campaign amounts to nothing but PC-build masturbation for yourself and your one other experienced Player.
End the campaign and start a new one with only the basics, stay out of Eberron and run a reduced rules-set until they learn the basic mechanics. I can't believe anything else is an issue.
You need to put them in an environment that is:
1) Humans-only;
2) Fighter-only for novices, and choice of Rogue, Ranger or Cleric for those who have learned Fighter;
3) Wizard for those who eventually learn Cleric, and non-human with DM approval for those beyond Fighter;
4) No funky settings with alternate rules, non-core races or other confusion.
Right now you need to keep it clean and get rid of all the options that they don't really know how to run.
Asking how to "fix" this Bard is like asking how to fix a street-race car that has been tricked out by the Saudi woman sitting behind the wheel ... first you need to put her in a Ford Escort and teach her to drive.
FWIW,
Rez :-)
| Rezdave |
pres man wrote:basically, at my table, yes. i'm not exactly sure how the rules handle it, but flaming just does fire damage. it does not specify lethal fire damage.
Then a flaming whip does not do lethal flaming damage but non-lethal flaming damage?
Regardless of whether the whip is doing lethal or non-lethal damage, the Fire-based damage is lethal.
If I hit you or Pres Man over the head with a +5 flaming, corrosive, merciful, human-bane nerf-bat then I could see arguing that the +5 is non-lethal along with the nerf-bat's base damage and the merciful damage, but the flame, acid and human-bane damage is all lethal.
FWIW,
Rez
| pres man |
kessukoofah wrote:pres man wrote:basically, at my table, yes. i'm not exactly sure how the rules handle it, but flaming just does fire damage. it does not specify lethal fire damage.
Then a flaming whip does not do lethal flaming damage but non-lethal flaming damage?Regardless of whether the whip is doing lethal or non-lethal damage, the Fire-based damage is lethal.
If I hit you or Pres Man over the head with a +5 flaming, corrosive, merciful, human-bane nerf-bat then I could see arguing that the +5 is non-lethal along with the nerf-bat's base damage and the merciful damage, but the flame, acid and human-bane damage is all lethal.
FWIW,
Rez
That is certainly correct by the rules, but since the rules are in question, I was just trying to determine how far off the rules we were wandering.
Cato Novus
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Sorry, Pres Man, you can't take a dragon's head off with a vorpal whip. Dragons are immune to critical hits.
Vorpal
This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off. A vorpal weapon must be a slashing weapon. (If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.)Strong necromancy and transmutation; CL 18th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, circle of death, keen edge; Price +5 bonus.
Aside from that, you would still have to find a DM that's willing to go along with the Vorpal quality. I can see allowing Vorpal on a flaming whip, but not a regular whip. Unless someone would agree to let me use a Throwing Returning Sling.
| Repairman Jack |
Sorry, Pres Man, you can't take a dragon's head off with a vorpal whip. Dragons are immune to critical hits.
SRD wrote:Aside from that, you would still have to find a DM that's willing to go along with the Vorpal quality. I can see allowing Vorpal on a flaming whip, but not a regular whip. Unless someone would agree to let me use a Throwing Returning Sling.Vorpal
This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off. A vorpal weapon must be a slashing weapon. (If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.)Strong necromancy and transmutation; CL 18th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, circle of death, keen edge; Price +5 bonus.
Where did you get the idea that dragons were immune to critical hits?
Also the vorpal special ability is an effect not a kind of damage, so it doesn't matter whether the whip does lethhal or nonlethal, so long as it is slashing. This is RAW. If a DM house-rules otherwise thats his rule. I would allow it as a DM.
This weapon would have a minimum cost of 72,301 gp. That's assuming a masterwork whip, a required +1 enhancement and only the vorpal ability (+5). It also would do basically nothing unless a natural 20 was rolled, even if it were made keen. And then it still has to confirm the crit. Kind of pricey, really. Its a serious waste of money.
The character wealth guide in the DMG has 66k at 11th level and 88k at 12th level. What level is this character?
| Saern |
Saern wrote:So, what suggestions do you have?This is an Eberron campaign on top of all the other problems you have?
Saern, you have to END this campaign now, get them all back to being 1st-Level Fighters in a generic low-fantasy setting and really teach them the rules.
Right now, your entire campaign amounts to nothing but PC-build masturbation for yourself and your one other experienced Player.
End the campaign and start a new one with only the basics, stay out of Eberron and run a reduced rules-set until they learn the basic mechanics. I can't believe anything else is an issue.
You need to put them in an environment that is:
1) Humans-only;
2) Fighter-only for novices, and choice of Rogue, Ranger or Cleric for those who have learned Fighter;
3) Wizard for those who eventually learn Cleric, and non-human with DM approval for those beyond Fighter;
4) No funky settings with alternate rules, non-core races or other confusion.Right now you need to keep it clean and get rid of all the options that they don't really know how to run.
Asking how to "fix" this Bard is like asking how to fix a street-race car that has been tricked out by the Saudi woman sitting behind the wheel ... first you need to put her in a Ford Escort and teach her to drive.
FWIW,
Rez :-)
Unfortunately, it's not my campaign. I advised my friend, the DM, not to run Eberron for the new group. I suggested Forgotten Realms instead. However, he doesn't have the book and, despite claiming to love the setting, has no interest in purchasing and/or reading it, apparently. I also asked about designing a homebrew, and while he wants to get around to it someday, all his ideas come to something like Eberron or Final Fantasy or Warhammer 40K, "because it's different." Never mind that the players don't understand normal yet to know what different is when it hits them over the head. I'm a huge fan of classical sword-and-sorcery games, but he doesn't seem to enjoy running them. Plus, I don't think he completely understands how big of a challenge is before us and the new players; not that it has to be a big one, but the way it's been presented makes it one.
Part of this is that our old group never wanted to play in Eberron, so he's had this desire repressed for some time and really wants to see it through now. I concur that it's not the wisest thing since Eberron is, both mechanically and conceptually, for advanced players. Again, even if it turns out to be your cup of tea, you first have to have the experience to know what kind of tea you like to even appreciate it.
But the die has been cast, literally and figuratively, and I don't think there's any chance of me convincing him ending this campaign. The players, for their confusion, are having fun in it, and wouldn't want it to end, anyway.
| pres man |
Sorry, Pres Man, you can't take a dragon's head off with a vorpal whip. Dragons are immune to critical hits.
As Repairman Jack said, dragons are not immune to critical hits. (Most) Undead, oozes, constructs, elementals, and a few random creatures are immune, but nowhere does it say anything in the dragon entry about them being immune as compared to the elemental description for example.
Dragon Type
Features
A dragon has the following features.
12-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
Skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Traits
A dragon possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in the description of a particular kind).
Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
Proficient with its natural weapons only unless humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with no armor.
Dragons eat, sleep, and breathe.
Elemental Type
Features
An elemental has the following features.
8-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to ¾ total Hit Dice (as cleric).
Good saves depend on the element: Fortitude (earth, water) or Reflex (air, fire).
Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Traits
An elemental possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning.
Not subject to critical hits or flanking.
Unlike most other living creatures, an elemental does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an elemental is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an elemental. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection, to restore it to life.
Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) that it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Elementals do not eat, sleep, or breathe.
Aside from that, you would still have to find a DM that's willing to go along with the Vorpal quality. I can see allowing Vorpal on a flaming whip, but not a regular whip. Unless someone would agree to let me use a Throwing Returning Sling.
Well let's look at the description of throwing.
Throwing
This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon. A melee weapon crafted with this ability gains a range increment of 10 feet and can be thrown by a wielder proficient in its normal use.Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, magic stone; Price +1 bonus.
Nope, not possible, the sling is not a melee weapon, so the throwing ability can't be placed on it.
EDIT: Also I would say that confirming a crit is not the same as criting. Huh? What cha talking about? See the flame burst ability as an example. Even against an ooze, if you "crit" and confirm it, even though the ooze can't be crited the extra damage with the flame burst ability still happens.
Cato Novus
|
Damn, rules from other things must be leaking into my D20 rules. First the Cure spells, now this.
I see only one solution, I must slam my head against a wall until everything is knocked back into the proper order(this may take a while).
Edit: Wait a minute, I remember now, there was this one DM who whenever he made a dragon, always somehow made certain it had an item to give it heavy fortification. And these items always broke when the dragon died. As a side note, I don't play in that guy's games anymore.
Sorry, just a bunch of junk that got ingrained as rules. My bad.
As for the sling, have you not read my Silly Magic Items thread?
| Max Graeves |
Going back to the original post, have you considered recommending for your newnb friend that he use a whip-dagger rather than a regular whip? At least that way he has two weapons that can do lethal, if he so chooses...although, offhand I cannot remember if you need exotic weapons prof for whip-daggers.
Edit: oops, sorry, didn't notice pres man had already mentioned it. NM.
Tarren Dei
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Lethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Nonlethal Damage
You can use a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, including an unarmed strike, to deal lethal damage instead, but you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll.
Well, wouldn't the player have to declare that they were using the whip to do lethal damage before making the attack and thereby take a -4 penalty on attacks regularly with the hopes of getting a critical so that the vorpal trait would apply?
If a character wanted to go around taking a -4 on all their attacks just so 1 time out of 20 (less because they won't confirm most crits) they can instantly kill, I'd let them. Their fellow party members wouldn't, but as the DM I would.
EDIT: I think Repairman Jack already said this. Still, I'd apply the -4 to their trip attacks as well. This really feels like a bad idea.
| pres man |
Well, wouldn't the player have to declare that they were using the whip to do lethal damage before making the attack and thereby take a -4 penalty on attacks regularly with the hopes of getting a critical so that the vorpal trait would apply?
Sure if the DM wants to rule it that way. Again though, there is nothing in the Vorpal description to suggest it has to be a weapon that does lethal damage, merely it has to be a slashing weapon which the whip is. I guess I'd compare it to using a longsword on a troll. The damage is nonlethal if it doesn't do fire or acid, does that mean that a vorpal longsword doesn't behead a troll? If the requirement is that it must do lethal damage then the answer would have to be that it can't behead a troll (note this doesn't necessarily kill the troll in any case).
EDIT: I think Repairman Jack already said this. Still, I'd apply the -4 to their trip attacks as well. This really feels like a bad idea.
Why? You can't crit on trip attacks. You can't vorpal someone if you are trying to trip them with a vorpal scythe or vorpal whip.
Tarren Dei
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Why? You can't crit on trip attacks. You can't vorpal someone if you are trying to trip them with a vorpal scythe or vorpal whip.
Why can't they 'vorpal' someone during a trip attack? It's no more against the rules than a vorpal whip, right? So, if they were hope to do lethal damage -- cutting someone's head off -- they are going to have a -4 to their rolls. Otherwise, a natural 20 is just a natural 20 with no vorpal. That would be my ruling, anyway.
Tarren Dei
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Bard v. The Vampire Lord
"The Vampire Lord argued that Bard's patented "Vorpal Whip" would be impossible because there is no conceivable way that a whip could cut through a neck. Bard argued that his invention did work because only Slashing weapons may be Vorpal, and whips are Slashing weapons. The Vampire Lord countered this by lobbing Bard's head off with his own counter-patented Vorpal Dagger, and promptly drank his blood. One month later, Bard returned to the court suing The Vampire Lord, arguing that a dagger could not be Vorpal because it says on 226 of the Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5 that the claim "Slashing weapons only" still held up."
Jal Dorak
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Regarding trolls, yeah you could sever the head with a vorpal sword - it just grows back if you didn't also use fire or acid. The nonlethal aspect of regeneration is just a shorthand to represent that normal weapons are easily overcome by the creature.
The whip, on the other hand, is a bit difficult to buy as cutting off someones head (difficult, but not impossible, which the -4 penalty would represent). I'm not arguing that the RAW says otherwise, I was totally presenting a logical* house-rule.
*I do believe that you could argue that despite not saying it directly, the ability to sever a head is dependent on the ability to deal actual damage to the target. If you can't break the skin, you can cut off the head, plain and simple. I mean, the vorpal ability also removes the head from the body. How does that work with, say, a Tiny Vorpal Dagger against a Colossal Red Dragon?
Weird. The DMG description of vorpal reads: "The DM may have to make judgment calls about this sword's effect". It seems to assume the vorpal weapon will be a sword. I know that's not what is meant but it is kind of odd.
Vindication! That gives credit to my previous statements! Also, proves the problem with relying on the SRD to adjudicate your game.
| pres man |
Well I'm sure most of us have seen or heard of rope "burns" that have slashed the hands of someone (there is a scene in the 13th Warrior where this happens for example). Now consider a magic whip curls around the neck of a creature and then is quickly withdrawn. I can certainly see a magic (vorpal) whip taking off the head.
Tarren Dei wrote:Weird. The DMG description of vorpal reads: "The DM may have to make judgment calls about this sword's effect". It seems to assume the vorpal weapon will be a sword. I know that's not what is meant but it is kind of odd.Vindication! That gives credit to my previous statements! Also, proves the problem with relying on the SRD to adjudicate your game.
So no Vorpal Scythes? Axes? Also I raise you the Defending ability, I guess that has to be a sword as well, sorry no defending daggers for anyone.
Tarren Dei
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Well I'm sure most of us have seen or heard of rope "burns" that have slashed the hands of someone (there is a scene in the 13th Warrior where this happens for example). Now consider a magic whip curls around the neck of a creature and then is quickly withdrawn. I can certainly see a magic (vorpal) whip taking off the head.
Jal Dorak wrote:So no Vorpal Scythes? Axes? Also I raise you the Defending ability, I guess that has to be a sword as well, sorry no defending daggers for anyone.Tarren Dei wrote:Weird. The DMG description of vorpal reads: "The DM may have to make judgment calls about this sword's effect". It seems to assume the vorpal weapon will be a sword. I know that's not what is meant but it is kind of odd.Vindication! That gives credit to my previous statements! Also, proves the problem with relying on the SRD to adjudicate your game.
Nah, it's just bad writing in both places.
Jal Dorak
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Well I'm sure most of us have seen or heard of rope "burns" that have slashed the hands of someone (there is a scene in the 13th Warrior where this happens for example). Now consider a magic whip curls around the neck of a creature and then is quickly withdrawn. I can certainly see a magic (vorpal) whip taking off the head.
That's one heck of a rope-burn!
Like I said, I can see it working as long as the player takes the -4 penalty.
| pres man |
pres man wrote:Why? You can't crit on trip attacks. You can't vorpal someone if you are trying to trip them with a vorpal scythe or vorpal whip.Why can't they 'vorpal' someone during a trip attack? It's no more against the rules than a vorpal whip, right? So, if they were hope to do lethal damage -- cutting someone's head off -- they are going to have a -4 to their rolls. Otherwise, a natural 20 is just a natural 20 with no vorpal. That would be my ruling, anyway.
I am forced to tentatively agree with this as I haven't found anything to say you can't "crit" on a the touch attack for a trip (or any other action where you have to start it with a touch attack). I will continue to look over the material though.
Jal Dorak
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Well I'm sure most of us have seen or heard of rope "burns" that have slashed the hands of someone (there is a scene in the 13th Warrior where this happens for example). Now consider a magic whip curls around the neck of a creature and then is quickly withdrawn. I can certainly see a magic (vorpal) whip taking off the head.
Jal Dorak wrote:So no Vorpal Scythes? Axes? Also I raise you the Defending ability, I guess that has to be a sword as well, sorry no defending daggers for anyone.Tarren Dei wrote:Weird. The DMG description of vorpal reads: "The DM may have to make judgment calls about this sword's effect". It seems to assume the vorpal weapon will be a sword. I know that's not what is meant but it is kind of odd.Vindication! That gives credit to my previous statements! Also, proves the problem with relying on the SRD to adjudicate your game.
I was not clear. I'm vindicated by the "judgement" statement, not by the mention of a sword.
Jal Dorak
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Tarren Dei wrote:I am forced to tentatively agree with this as I haven't found anything to say you can't "crit" on a the touch attack for a trip (or any other action where you have to start it with a touch attack). I will continue to look over the material though.pres man wrote:Why? You can't crit on trip attacks. You can't vorpal someone if you are trying to trip them with a vorpal scythe or vorpal whip.Why can't they 'vorpal' someone during a trip attack? It's no more against the rules than a vorpal whip, right? So, if they were hope to do lethal damage -- cutting someone's head off -- they are going to have a -4 to their rolls. Otherwise, a natural 20 is just a natural 20 with no vorpal. That would be my ruling, anyway.
It's a big bunch of confusion:
Vorpal (FAQ) says: Vorpal is a special quality activated on a roll of 20 and a confirmation roll of a critical hit.
Critical Hit says: Happens on the roll of a 20 on an attack.
Trip says: Make a melee touch attack roll.
So, by the reading, you could achieve Vorpal on Trip roll. However, since you aren't dealing damage on the attack roll, can you actually score a critical hit? The rules appear to be vague on this issue, and I would argue "No, you cannot critical unless you would normally be dealing damage to the target."
Cato Novus
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Cato Novus wrote:As for the sling, have you not read my Silly Magic Items thread?Nope, can you provide a link?
In the archives as of this posting. Silly Magic Items
kessukoofah
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The real question is, can a whip go snicker-snack?
Not according to this guy up here who I see practice with a bull whip occasionally. I think that's sorta the same whip mentioned in the book. according to him, the only two sounds you're going to get are "whooooosh" from it going by and "hmmmmmm-CRACK" when he snaps it. incidently, i also asked about the effectiveness of it as a weapon and while it can be used to attack the face on humans, or trip them up by grabbing a leg, or grabbing on arm, most of the effectiveness is in the sound it makes. a loud cracking noise right next to the ears is effective in scaring people (or animals) off. It is also fairly difficult to use it for any of the other reeasons, and even harder to do it so you don't have to spend 10 seconds unwrapping it from whatever you wrapped it around.
Just my .02.