hi, I like the new quick and fast rule for channeling energy.
Two points:
(1) why not have the ability to do old school turning OR new school "channeling" - all from the same pool of turn attempts
(2) id need to check in the 3.5 rules but im pretty sure the rebuker is getting short changed here? (will check)
http://roleplaygeek.blogspot.com/
As long as they are on equal footing now does it really matter what standard 3.5 says? i am assuming you mean short changed from what he used to get, I don't see how he could be getting short changed against the positive energy channeler now, unless I am missing something.
Charles
Lemme give you a few ideas as to how 1. is not a good idea.
First of all, turning was way too complicated. Second, the undead didn't really get a roll agianst its effects. It was whether the cleric rolled good or not, but they really had little defense agaisnt it, as I demonstrated with one of my 3.5 clerics, "Brother Jerome"
Jerome ended up being a 20th level cleric. Now without a single non-core feat, magic item, etc, this was what Jerome could do.
First, he had the sun domain, which allows 1/day greater turning, any undead normally turned are instead destroyed.
Naturally he had the improved turning feat (turn as if 1 level higher in the class).
By 20th level Jerome had a +6 cha mod. [no tomes, he started with a 16 and had a +6 item]
Jerome had a Phylactery of Undead Turning (turn like you are 4 levels higher), which was also a circlet of persuasion +3 (+3 on cha related checks, which turning undead is)
Also a pale green iounstone (+1 competence bonus on ability checks)
Of course he had 5+ ranks in Knowledge Religon, giving him a +2 synergy bonus to his initial cha roll.
Here's how it worked out. Turning Check for most Powerful undead at +12 (6 cha, 3 headband, 2 synergy, 1 competence). His turning damage was 2d6 +31 (20 for level, +5 between phylactery and improved turning, +6 cha mod). And for the purposes of turning Jerome counts as a 25th level cleric.
What's that mean? Well, it means that if Jerome rolls a 1 on his turning check, he can turn unlead up to 26 HD in power. Rolling a 10 or better on that check allows him to turn 29 HD undead. Against solo undead, Jerome's turning damage is high enough that he doesn't have to roll it, if he can turn it, it does. EG: Any undead less than 26 hit dice is either dead or fleeing on Jerome's first initiative, without him even rolling the dice.
The highest CR undead in the entire monster manual has 25 HD, the Nightcrawler, at CR 18. Granted that by 20th level Nightcrawlers ought to be a breeze anyway, but Jerome was frequently tearing through badass leveled Vampires, etc. A Lich or Vampire would have to be at least CR 25 , to not be dusted by Jerome without him rolling the dice (this is factoring in the Lich/Vampire templates CR adjustment, and its turn resistance), Only if it was CR 30, 10 levels above the party, in the realm of "massacre-ville", would it manage a 50-50 shot of living past Jerome's first initiative. This is also assuming that every increase to the creatures CR is something that gives it 1 Hit Dice, which won't be the case for multi-templated creatures.
The items I used, mainly the phylactery of undead turning and circlet of persuasion, are reasonably cheap and should be readily available to a 10+ level cleric. Even without the improved turning feat, an 11th level cleric can easily end the battle against an undead with up to 19 HD with a single roll of the dice.
And thats all CORE. Throw in the Rod of Defiance (Libris Mortis), which strips almost all undead of the effective benifit of their turn resistance (by letting you barell past it), or the Scepter of the Netherworld, anouther 'count as X levels higher for turning' item, and things will really get out of hand, giving you basically another +7 "cleric levels" on top of what I already mentioned.
Note: THIS is a Turning. With a very big T.
When you get something good you have to lose something to offset it.
While Turning Undead is situational at best (do you really want undead feared, running away? and what about that demon? doesn't work against him at all), it was relatively powerful in some campaigns. i.e. undead heavy ones. Those clerics who specialized in it were very Very good at it.
Channeling Energy is powerful. It isn't situational. It's powerful every single day of the cleric's life. It doesn't only work on one type of creature, or only in some type of campaigns. It's a Class 1 Grade A boost to the cleric.
They need to lose something to get it.
The older, more powerful vs Undead ability is what they have lost.
Some would say not an equal trade- but it's the trade that has been made. Allowing the cleric to do either one would be too powerful, in my opinion. (choosing one or the other at char creation would work imo, but not being able to switch between 'em at will)
-S