Genova! Git yer prod again - damned thing's still kicking!
*ZAP*
Darn...it just won't DIE!!!!
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4e D&D has little in common with the game that E. Gary Gygax created over 30 years go. It is a completely different game, and if Hasbro/WOTC were being honest, they should rename it to Dragon-Quest-Rune-Fighters or something. It is a video game RPG, and you are better off just playing Warcraft or a similar computer game. I have heard that WOTC are having layoffs, and they deserve it. I hope they layoff everyone there who is responsible for creating this corruption of Dungeons and Dragons. D&D, as we know it, is dead...
No one deserves to be laid off. D&D is not dead. Why is crap like this coming back to this board. I cannot believe how badly this board has taken a nose dive in recent days.
But let's look at that first statement in particular.
D&D still has class, level, XP, GP, elves, dwarves, humans, halflings, clerics, fighters, wizards, AC, attack rolls, damage rolls, STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, and CHA. It still has dungeons. It still has dragons. It has orcs, goblins, and kobolds. It has almost everything you can find in the original game.
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Right...only he wasn't just talking about THAC0, he was comparing the death of THAC0 from 2e to 3.x to the new powers in 4e.
No I wasn't - I was saying that complaining about the loss of THAC0 is like complaining about the addition of powers insofar as there is a lot of bluster about nothing much at all.
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Anyway, I think I'm gonna stop getting drawn into these endless circular discussions. I'm never gonna be convinced 4e is a system I will enjoy, and it's pointless me wasting time moaning about it.
You do not have to enjoy it. Feel free to dislike the game all you want. But why insist on belittling the game and the people that play it? Do you really need to justify you dislike of 4e by trying to convince the rest of us that we should dislike it as much as you do?
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D&D still has class, level, XP, GP, elves, dwarves, humans, halflings, clerics, fighters, wizards, AC, attack rolls, damage rolls, STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, and CHA. It still has dungeons. It still has dragons. It has orcs, goblins, and kobolds. It has almost everything you can find in the original game.
More imporant than anything that CWM said, it has people that play and enjoy the game. Period.
Someone once said Elvis fans are a lot more friendly than those who make fun of Elvis fans. With that truth in mind, I'd much rather play 4E with such folks as CWM than 3.5/Pathfinder with those wishing poorly for WotC's employees.
But let's look at that first statement in particular.D&D still has class, level, XP, GP, elves, dwarves, humans, halflings, clerics, fighters, wizards, AC, attack rolls, damage rolls, STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, and CHA. It still has dungeons. It still has dragons. It has orcs, goblins, and kobolds. It has almost everything you can find in the original game.
...and lets look at Palladium Fantasy. It has class, level, XP, GP, elves dwarves, humans, clerics, fighters, wizards, attack rolls, damage rolls, physical strength, physical prowess, physical endurance, mental endurance, mental affinity. It has dungeons, dragons, orcs, goblins and koblods. It has almost everything you can find in AD&D.
So, other than having no halflings and an Armor Rating, it's "the same game" as AD&D. I guess that means that the Palladium system is D&D as well.
Anyway, I think I'm gonna stop getting drawn into these endless circular discussions. I'm never gonna be convinced 4e is a system I will enjoy, and it's pointless me wasting time moaning about it.You do not have to enjoy it. Feel free to dislike the game all you want. But why insist on belittling the game and the people that play it? Do you really need to justify you dislike of 4e by trying to convince the rest of us that we should dislike it as much as you do?
I can't really take credit for belittling the game ... the designers have done that all on their own. ;-)
Rituals do not count as spells since everybody but his uncle can do rituals for the low, low price of one....two at most....feats. What's worse many of these spells aren't really adequate choices for their level.That said, I think you can convert a vancian caster over fairly well, between Rituals and the Wizard's Spellbook. After taking the Extended Spellbook Feat (or whatever the feat is that gives you an extra Daily per Daily level) my current Wizard has a TON of spells, and he's only 4th. If I were to actively hunt down new Rituals to scribe into my book, I'd have even more.
Cheers! :)
This is a pretty lousy criteria for what is and is not a spell. The fact tha ta fighter can spend his feats in order to gain access to and utilize a spell book does not change the contents of that spell book into some that is not spells. They are still spells - this fighter has just spent feats in order to learn how to cast them.
Just....let....it....DIE!!!!
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In defense of the op, you do have to call 4E D&D. Because you can get sued if you dont (read the GSL!)
On the other hand, maybe the only reason 1st Ed AD&D didn't look like 4E was because they didn't have World of Warcraft yet...
And if it were not for D&D then World of Warcraft would not exist. The fact that the riff of one another is a good thing IMHO.
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But let's look at that first statement in particular.D&D still has class, level, XP, GP, elves, dwarves, humans, halflings, clerics, fighters, wizards, AC, attack rolls, damage rolls, STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, and CHA. It still has dungeons. It still has dragons. It has orcs, goblins, and kobolds. It has almost everything you can find in the original game.
...and lets look at Palladium Fantasy. It has class, level, XP, GP, elves dwarves, humans, clerics, fighters, wizards, attack rolls, damage rolls, physical strength, physical prowess, physical endurance, mental endurance, mental affinity. It has dungeons, dragons, orcs, goblins and koblods. It has almost everything you can find in AD&D.
So, other than having no halflings and an Armor Rating, it's "the same game" as AD&D. I guess that means that the Palladium system is D&D as well.
Nope. The things you mentioned all have a completely different nomenclature. That is a critical distinction between the two. Semantics matter.
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This is a pretty lousy criteria for what is and is not a spell. The fact tha ta fighter can spend his feats in order to gain access to and utilize a spell book does not change the contents of that spell book into some that is not spells. They are still spells - this fighter has just spent feats in order to learn how to cast them.Rituals do not count as spells since everybody but his uncle can do rituals for the low, low price of one....two at most....feats. What's worse many of these spells aren't really adequate choices for their level.That said, I think you can convert a vancian caster over fairly well, between Rituals and the Wizard's Spellbook. After taking the Extended Spellbook Feat (or whatever the feat is that gives you an extra Daily per Daily level) my current Wizard has a TON of spells, and he's only 4th. If I were to actively hunt down new Rituals to scribe into my book, I'd have even more.
Cheers! :)
Or in 3e he could have multiclassed into wizard.
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Just....let....it....DIE!!!!
Not yet.
This forum was really good for a month or so then this latest poop storm flared up. The folks that are coming here to fling poo need to know that we have been through this and it needs to stop. Before it does stop they need to know that the 4e board is not for trash talking and spitting on WotC, 4e, or the people that want to play it.
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@ Genova - 4e has caused a serious rift in our community and has called into question the stewardship of our game. this is NOT an issue you just let die. This is an important one for the identity of the game, and its future. Plugging your ears with your fingers and singing la la la is not the answer, especially since these truths are just now reaching a wider gaming audience than perhaps us PAIZONIANS have been knowledgable about over this past year. I beieve we should expect this dicussion to continue. And as such, in the spirit of open communiction, we should all (pros/cons) continue this dialogue.
...than 3.5/Pathfinder with those wishing poorly for WotC's employees.
Even I agree. Its bad karma to wish ill upon others. It is also disrespectful and mean. I deeply understand the need to vent; there is a lot of disappointment over 4e and what wotc has done to the game, but we must never wish ill upon other people.
Additionally, I believe those of us staying 3.5/PRPG are kind gamers with a lot of integrity. Let's not spoil PAIZONIAN reputations because of a few individuals.
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@ Genova - 4e has caused a serious rift in our community and has called into question the stewardship of our game.
No. 4e did not cause a rift in the gamer community. The rift was caused by those that decided the only legitimate response was to attack WotC, attack 4e, and attack those that want to play the game.
Rifts are caused by things like the posts by Razz and Leaf. You have not helped either. Rifts are cause by the idiots at GenCon that wore "4e killed Gygax" tshirts.
I play 4e (Living Forgotten Realms). I play 3e (Pathfinder Society). I play Pathfinder (home beta test).
Ain't no rift here. The fact that you choose to create one is the real problem.
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@ Genova - 4e has caused a serious rift in our community and has called into question the stewardship of our game. this is NOT an issue you just let die. This is an important one for the identity of the game, and its future. Plugging your ears with your fingers and singing la la la is not the answer, especially since these truths are just now reaching a wider gaming audience than perhaps us PAIZONIANS have been knowledgable about over this past year. I beieve we should expect this dicussion to continue. And as such, in the spirit of open communiction, we should all (pros/cons) continue this dialogue.
While I agree in part with what you have to say, the question I have is what do you hope to accomplish? Do you feel that discussion here, on this board, arguing semantics over a subjectively-determined experience is going to resolve this rift? Understand that I'm not trying to be snarky, and I am not trying to attack you personally, but really, this debate here has disolved into a "French Vanilla Ice Cream is not a true vanilla flavor." And?? Whether it is or not, is the argument over it going to heal that breach? Is it going to have an impact with WotC, who have pretty much stated that if you're not on the 4E bandwagon then to hell with you?
This issue about 4E or not 4E is really answered by each player, in accordance with what each player interprets as important to them from a gaming system. One thing that those that accept 4E are going to have to admit is that there are differences in the way 4E plays. The end result may be the same, ie the dragon slain and the players retiring to enjoy a quaff of ale at their favorite inn, the road getting there is significantly different. We can say that elements remain the same between the two versions, but deep down we need to respect the concept that you don't convert your character as much as you have to reimagine them. For those that don't particularly care for the route 4E takes to getting to the inn to enjoy that ale, fine. But don't belittle the 4E player's enjoyable experience getting there. No matter what you yell or hollar, the end result is still the same - a social gaming experience enjoyed by friends.
Its a tit-for-tat, circular argument on both sides that becomes more inflammed because we've lost site of the most important aspect - whether or not the particular system rules meet your personal expectations, you should still have respect and honor for the person that plays that system. Role playing isn't about the rules, its about the people. D&D is a social game, shared by people wishing to have a social experience. When you lose sight of that aspect, when it becomes more important to wave your banner of righteousness and ensure that your interpretation of what is or is not a good game system than the respect and courtesy shown to the gamer that is sitting to your left or right, then you've lost. Period. End of statement.
The points in this thread have been discussed before, on numerous boards, all resolving in the uneasy consensus that 4E either is, or is not, the game for me. I'm kind of disappointed that this thread was even brought back up, and the OP even states they shouldn't have started it. I especially agree when reading that the OP started this thread because they didn't want to be known as an "Evil Empire supporter", and yet outside of this thread (at the time of my veiled comment on personal opinions) they only had three other posts on this board outside of this particular thread, none of which even indicated to me that they played 4E, nor did I receive the impression that anyone was coming down on them for doing so.
So, my final stance on this is if I have to pound you to the ground in defense of my stance on what is or isn't gaming, then I am doing NOTHING to heal this rift in the gaming community, and am, in fact, doing more harm then good. I won't stand idly by and let people make horrid personal attacks without calling to point, but I don't think either 4E or 3.5 need me to come charging to their defense over a person's personal interpretation of what the D&D experience should be.
I can't really take credit for belittling the game ... the designers have done that all on their own. ;-)So you claim you don't belittle 4e and then you turn around and belittle 4e. Nice.
No you're right. I should be ashamed of myself. Belittling the biggest selling rpg, whatever would my mother say. I stand shamed and corrected.
@ Genova - 4e has caused a serious rift in our community and has called into question the stewardship of our game.No. 4e did not cause a rift in the gamer community. The rift was caused by those that decided the only legitimate response was to attack WotC, attack 4e, and attack those that want to play the game.
Rifts are caused by things like the posts by Razz and Leaf. You have not helped either. Rifts are cause by the idiots at GenCon that wore "4e killed Gygax" tshirts.
I play 4e (Living Forgotten Realms). I play 3e (Pathfinder Society). I play Pathfinder (home beta test).
Ain't no rift here. The fact that you choose to create one is the real problem.
Heh, I thought those t-shirts sounded hilarious, and in no sense disrespectful to Gary, and I've got one of my friends looking out for one for me as he's a volunteer at GenCon UK from today/tomorrow.
He's a 4e GM btw (presently struggling to find players), so ... see some of my best friends play 4e. :-)
Heh, I thought those t-shirts sounded hilarious, and in no sense disrespectful to Gary, and I've got one of my friends looking out for one for me as he's a volunteer at GenCon UK from today/tomorrow.
He's a 4e GM btw (presently struggling to find players), so ... see some of my best friends play 4e. :-)
Dude ... I get you really don't like 4E and like to bash on it. Whatever. But people who actually knew Gary were at Gencon, including some of his family.
I don't think its very cool to use someone's death to bash a game system you don't like. Seriously man.
Not cheery. :(
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No you're right. I should be ashamed of myself. Belittling the biggest selling rpg, whatever would my mother say. I stand shamed and corrected.I can't really take credit for belittling the game ... the designers have done that all on their own. ;-)So you claim you don't belittle 4e and then you turn around and belittle 4e. Nice.
I think you forgot the sarcasm tags, or not.
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@ Genova - 4e has caused a serious rift in our community and has called into question the stewardship of our game.No. 4e did not cause a rift in the gamer community. The rift was caused by those that decided the only legitimate response was to attack WotC, attack 4e, and attack those that want to play the game.
I will disagree with you on this one.
As far as I know, the very fact that some of us have this discussion is proof enough of the existence of the rift, especially if anyone feels the need to open a thread on the subject.
And what about those that felt the need to attack 3e and all the 3PP publishers as soon as the news of 4e came out ? Don't tell me they helped ?
Sure not everybody on the Internet is an angel with glowing wings, but acknowledging that the problem comes from both sides would help diffuse the hostility.
The current situation is the best of both worlds, everybody has his own game rather than being forced to play a game one doesn't enjoy, so I don't see the value of rekindling the fire.
Good gaming to all
I agree that the flaming posts don't really add much, on the other hand continuing the discussion at whatever level is important.
The issue of the future of D&D is important to all of us that play it, whatever edition, and we do have some say in it with our voice and our wallets. Just because 4E is out doesn't mean thats the end of it.
IMO, 4E has a greater split (than any other single edition change) of those who feel it is the next step for D&D and those that do not.
For those of us that do not like 4E as the new direction/iteration of D&D or for those who are undecided we must continue to be heard. Both to help others decide and to give companies like Paizo the fuel to keep another version alive commercially. Heck maybe Paizo can acquire the D&D brand for 5E....
Flames, personal attacks, and poor taste aside, this is a discussion that needs to stay open.
It doesn't mean you have to hate any edition, in fact you could enjoy 4E, but still not want that to be the direction of the future of the D&D franchise...
Heh, I thought those t-shirts sounded hilarious, and in no sense disrespectful to Gary, and I've got one of my friends looking out for one for me as he's a volunteer at GenCon UK from today/tomorrow.
He's a 4e GM btw (presently struggling to find players), so ... see some of my best friends play 4e. :-)
Dude ... I get you really don't like 4E and like to bash on it. Whatever. But people who actually knew Gary were at Gencon, including some of his family.
I don't think its very cool to use someone's death to bash a game system you don't like. Seriously man.
Not cheery. :(
It's an ironic gag, meant in jest, ... though I personally wouldn't wear it outside of my home in case it was taken the wrong way.
I think you forgot the sarcasm tags, or not.No you're right. I should be ashamed of myself. Belittling the biggest selling rpg, whatever would my mother say. I stand shamed and corrected.I can't really take credit for belittling the game ... the designers have done that all on their own. ;-)So you claim you don't belittle 4e and then you turn around and belittle 4e. Nice.
Who's being sarcastic, I'm deeply contrite.
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As far as I know, the very fact that some of us have this discussion is proof enough of the existence of the rift, especially if anyone feels the need to open a thread on the subject.
The fact that there are people who all played 3e that now play either 3e, 4e, or both is not a rift. We could all just play whatever we want to play and everything would be just fine. The rift appeared when people felt the need to attack and defend. That was starting to heal up and we were all headed to a much better place - we have 3e, 4e, and Pathfinder now. We are all happy playing the games we like. The current rift is caused by the divisive attacks that continue to plague this board.
And what about those that felt the need to attack 3e and all the 3PP publishers as soon as the news of 4e came out ? Don't tell me they helped ?
Absolutely but like I said above that had all started to blow over. We had turned a corner here and other boards were experiencing the same state of detante. I have no idea why this latest flare up had to happen at all. Maybe the new Pathfinder fans feel the need to come and dump on the 4e fans because they think that is what the 4e forum is for.
Yes, we did have an ugly back and forth and I had hoped that Sebastian's "dual happiness" post would have smoothed this all over. To be fair - look over the last few contentious threads here and I do not think you will find anyone posting anti-3e drivel. These threads have been fueled by the "I hate 4e" crew.
The current situation is the best of both worlds, everybody has his own game rather than being forced to play a game one doesn't enjoy, so I don't see the value of rekindling the fire.
Good gaming to all
I don't get it either. Like I have said I play 3e, 4e, and Pathfinder. I don't understand why we need to pump more lead into the bloated equine carcass that is the 3e v 4e debate.
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For those of us that do not like 4E as the new direction/iteration of D&D or for those who are undecided we must continue to be heard. Both to help others decide and to give companies like Paizo the fuel to keep another version alive commercially. Heck maybe Paizo can acquire the D&D brand for 5E....
The market will decide where D&D goes not a few posts to a message board. The folks that are undecided do not need to be swayed towards pro or con - people can decide based on their own experience with the game.
If this 3e v 4e thing is all about trying to kill 4e so Paizo can buy the D&D brand then it is truly misguided and really needs to stop. The market and the sales numbers will determine what happens next - not people quibbling on the interwebz.
I think a lot of the 'hatred' is due to the fact that the 3.5e community is fighting for it's right to exist, and every action and decision that Wotc has made with regard to 4E tells a lot of us that Wotc has no intention of allowing the 3.5 community to exist peacefully.
It is my opinion (based on fact and Wotc's own actions) that Wotc wants nothing less (ultimately) than the destruction of all OGL games.
Thus asking for peaceful co-existance here or elsewhere is like asking the lamb to get along with the ravenous wolf. That's not going to happen unless the lamb winds up inside the wolf.
I am not saying we should be rude, or attack other posters, but let's call it what it is: Paizo and Pathfinder represent (de-facto anyway if not by Paizo's intent) a lot of dissaffected gamers and their right to dissent against 4e.
-Polaris
So what would your goal be here? Would you like everyone to abandon 4E and go to Pathfinder instead? That seems like an unreachable goal. Convince WotC to drop 4E and go back to 3E? That, too, doesn't seem like it will happen.
I understand what you're saying, but question precisely what you think the tactics you are using will accomplish that somehow helps your goal.
The market will decide where D&D goes not a few posts to a message board. The folks that are undecided do not need to be swayed towards pro or con - people can decide based on their own experience with the game.
I was undecided, reading the pros and cons helped me decide.
I don't like where WOTC is taking the D&D brand, maybe I don't have much power over that, but being quiet about certainly won't help!
"a few posts to a message board" can show people that feel the same way that they are not alone, and those people talk and so on...
PFRPG was at least influenced by message boards and word of mouth (not just the GSL).
I think a lot of the 'hatred' is due to the fact that the 3.5e community is fighting for it's right to exist, and every action and decision that Wotc has made with regard to 4E tells a lot of us that Wotc has no intention of allowing the 3.5 community to exist peacefully.
It is my opinion (based on fact and Wotc's own actions) that Wotc wants nothing less (ultimately) than the destruction of all OGL games.
Thus asking for peaceful co-existance here or elsewhere is like asking the lamb to get along with the ravenous wolf. That's not going to happen unless the lamb winds up inside the wolf.
I am not saying we should be rude, or attack other posters, but let's call it what it is: Paizo and Pathfinder represent (de-facto anyway if not by Paizo's intent) a lot of dissaffected gamers and their right to dissent against 4e.
-Polaris
I'm not seeing this at all. WotC still has 3e material on their site that people can still download. Heck the 3.5 SRD is still there. Here's the LINK, see for yourself.
EDIT: Also WotC is still selling their 3.x products in pdf format at DriveThruRPG.
EDIT2: Also WotC still has part of their messageboard set aside for previous editions of the game.
WotC decide that the OGL was no longer in their best interest and they didn't want people dilluting the 4e brand by allow mixing of the two editions. But nothing is stopping companies from sticking with 3.x, except of course themselves (see PfRPG, Conan, Iron Kingdoms, True20, etc). The 3pp companies are abandoning 3.5, they could stick with, they could put out their own core books using the SRD as a template, but they want to diverage from those rules to make their own mark. Great, good for them. But let's remove the aluminum hats and stop saying WotC is trying to crush all 3pp 3.5 supporters. Saying that they don't want people mixing 3e and 4e is not trying to kill 3e. 3e is dying because it is being abandoned, simple as that.
I think a lot of the 'hatred' is due to the fact that the 3.5e community is fighting for it's right to exist, and every action and decision that Wotc has made with regard to 4E tells a lot of us that Wotc has no intention of allowing the 3.5 community to exist peacefully.
It is my opinion (based on fact and Wotc's own actions) that Wotc wants nothing less (ultimately) than the destruction of all OGL games.
Thus asking for peaceful co-existance here or elsewhere is like asking the lamb to get along with the ravenous wolf. That's not going to happen unless the lamb winds up inside the wolf.
I am not saying we should be rude, or attack other posters, but let's call it what it is: Paizo and Pathfinder represent (de-facto anyway if not by Paizo's intent) a lot of dissaffected gamers and their right to dissent against 4e.
-Polaris
The "3.5e community" isn't fighting for its right to exist. No one at WOTC has suggested that revoking the OGL is even possible, let alone under serious consideration. If, on the other hand, you're trying to argue that anything short of such is a credible threat, then I'll just say your point of view is incomprehensible to me.
You wolf/lamb analogy doesn't seem applicable, and it is certainly begging the question in any case.
Finally, phrases like "right to dissent" simply don't have a place in a discussion of RPG editions. That is like saying I have "right to dissent" against Pepsi by buying Coke. Yes, D&D is important to many people, myself included, but this is just hyperbole.
this is my first (and maybe only) post regarding edition wars:
The fact alone that 4e made so much people asking themselves if 4e actually is D&D or if they could bear the flaws the new game mechanics have (in their opinion), makes the question (if 4e is D&D) valid.
Otherwise we all would switch gladly to the new system and there wouldn´t be 3.5 or 4e "communities" "fighing" that hard.
this is my first (and maybe only) post regarding edition wars:
The fact alone that 4e made so much people asking themselves if 4e actually is D&D or if they could bear the flaws the new game mechanics have (in their opinion), makes the question (if 4e is D&D) valid.
Otherwise we all would switch gladly to the new system and there wouldn´t be that much complaints.
Ah...so enough people asking a question makes it "valid?" That is some interesting logic you've got there.
I'm gonna retire from this thread before I end up saying something I'll regret.
When I first started a thread on this topic I was on page 200 of the 4.0 phb. I have since almost finished reading the book and I must say it is starting to grow on me. At first I was like " what the hell is this"? Although I think I will still enjoy the PFRPG and 3.5 better, I think this edition could be fun. And then again, who cares which one I like better, as long as they are both fun to play.
As for people saying this isn't dnd, I think that is a matter of personal preference. What might feel like dnd to me might not feel like dnd to someone else.
Ah...so enough people asking a question makes it "valid?" That is some interesting logic you've got there.
I'm gonna retire from this thread before I end up saying something I'll regret.
As Wittgenstein has been quoted, i will quote Descartes:
Cogito ergo sum (i think, therefor i am).So i would say:
"I play, therefor it´s D&D"
What this means ?
It simply means: If enough people play 4e and can say: "It´s D&D for me", it certainly will become "D&D" over time and later editions will build on it.
If not, it will go down in game history as a bad edition, just like in it happened in many other RPGs.
So even it IS D&D, the question will be: is it a good edition of D&D ?
And i think this is the real question behind it.
But that question can be answered only by time itself...
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I don't get it either. Like I have said I play 3e, 4e, and Pathfinder. I don't understand why we need to pump more lead into the bloated equine carcass that is the 3e v 4e debate.The current situation is the best of both worlds, everybody has his own game rather than being forced to play a game one doesn't enjoy, so I don't see the value of rekindling the fire.
Yes I should have been more precise, but time and length of message ...
so I'll expand on my point :I find it actually very positive that you choose to play both editions, but even BETTER that anybody who wants CAN now do it.
In previous editions changes, you had little choice, as you could keep the old system, and eventually lose your gamng group, and have no alternatives other than stop playing for lack of players or convert.
Ever had luck finding a 3.0 game when 3.5 came out for instance ?
Now, gamers have a real choice of system, and can play the game they enjoy most, without fear of being stuck alone in their choice. And they can choose to play both, as you have pointed out, if that is their taste.
And I find this situation infinitely better and positive than what was possible in earlier years.
So this not about the dead horse. zombie horses have lousy stats anyway, and don't make good challenges for a party of adventurers.
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@TigerDave - thanks for your enlightened and articulate response.
@CWM - When you say, "There is no rift here," I see you putting your head in the sand. You equate the rift with the kids at the con with t-shirts... that was tasteless, but not really what I'm talking about.
All:
Additionally, just because you've had a dicussion on some other thread before doesn't mean you can't offer the courtesy for those in the hobby who might have questions, or are just now beginning to find-out and dicuss what has happened.
The dialogue continues...
Many of us view the behavior of wotc as lacking customer focus, having demonstrated very poor customer service, misleading expectations of the community, censoring their messageboards, killing dungeon and dragon print magazines, using non-disclosure forms, crafting a watertight GSL legal nightmare for 3PPs, hoarding intellectual property from the fantasy genre, crafting 4e to model Starwars Minis or WoW video game on paper, disregarding the tradition and shared history of 30+ years of the mileau and gamers.
The should always remaing the freedom to express to the next generation how there was an essence once to what was d&d that has changed to profoundly, that its very "spirit" seems to have been crushed.
It is not enough to roll over and play dead, bury a head in the sand, or plug ones ears. This should not be the time to stop dialogue and communication, because discussions foster understanding and reinforce communities. Those who support wotc should come to understand why 4e, the destruction of the forgotten realms, and the money-driven wotc company behavior matters more today than ever before! This disagreement runs deep.
Basically, those who want discussion to stop are like wotc, in my opinion, treating gamers as though they were mindless sheep, expecting them to say nothing and just move along...
All,
Could we just let this useless quarrel die once and for good ?
I mean, 4E is not my cup of tea, and the FR have changed so much that I can't personally recognize them, but does that authorize me to belittle the game or its fans ? Certainly not.
Besides, there never has been so many game systems supported at the same time (partly because of the strong reactions to 4E) ? You want to continue with 3.x ? Play Pathfinder. You want to an evolution of the classic D20 ? Choose (the excellent) True20. You are bored with D20 ? Play Warhammer FRPG, Hero, Ars Magica etc.
So what's the problem ? I never saw so many games of good quality being supported at the same time. And thanks to the pdf edition, they are now even cheaper.
People who want to stick with the OGL should not be afraid of its disappearance anyway => OGL is forever. Now if you really want to defend the game you like, please support it by posting interesting game aids, plots etc, rather than by trashing your neighbour's game. Plus, you can later steal good ideas of other games and put them in your owns.
Last but not least, there is only 1 gaming community, and several games. If you don't like product A or company X, buy product B or from company Y, that will allow the games you like to continue being developped more than the continuous rant on 4E.
Game on !
Ah...so enough people asking a question makes it "valid?" That is some interesting logic you've got there.
i maybe wasn´t clear about what i wanted to say (english isn´t my native language).
What i meant is: The fact that people ask that question in the fist place is enough to discuss the question, regardless of the answer.So i don´t think it would be a good idea if the question wasn´t discussed any more.