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Hey all,
Just started up Second Darkness under 3.5 rules. One player is playing a Dragon Shaman from PHB II. Overall I don't have a problem with the class mechanically, it isn't over-powered like some other splatbook classes.
Anyway, one problem that came up was the shaman's aura that grants fast healing. I find this ability to be too good at all levels in terms of simulation. A dragon shaman with this ability effectively negates the need for clerics in a campaign world. A shaman could walk through a battlefield with this aura active and bring every soldier on the brink of death back into fighting shape in a matter of a minute.
My player was a bit taken aback that I was suggesting altering his class abilities because of in-world application (but I am not backing down). I would like some commentary on my proposed fix (or the situation, if you feel inclined to share). Anyway, my fix was one of two options (I prefer #1):
1) The shaman grants fast healing to all desired in the radius of the aura. If such creatures have negative hp this ability can raise them to 0 hp. If such creatures have positive hp, this ability can raise them to a maximum of 1/2 their maximum (this part is a normal limit).
2) The shaman selects a number of creatures in its aura up to 3 + Cha modifier (this would apply to all the shaman auras).
I wouldn't have a problem with #1. But then again, I don't have a problem with the fast healing aura as it is. But then AGAIN, I always thought it was kind of a weird power (what's draconic about healing everyone around you?). But THEN AGAIN, there was a dragon shaman in my Shackled City game (or at least a cleric with one level of dragon shaman), and it worked out fine.
I'd say go with choice #1.
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Hogarth - Thanks for the feedback. I see you have some of the same "hesitation" I did, which for me as a DM is a warning that something is up. As I said, it isn't about balance with other classes, it is the large scale impact.
It came up when the party had 4 thugs unconscious and bleeding out. Instead of being able to save only a handful, the shaman turned on fast healing as a swift action and stabilized everybody, then healed them up to where-ever he liked.
Also, could someone clarify, when this aura is activated, do creatures immediately gain 1 hp, or do they wait until the shaman's next turn, or for their next turn?
Hogarth - Thanks for the feedback. I see you have some of the same hesitation I did, which for me as a DM is a warning that something is up.
I wouldn't say I had any hesitation about it; it seems like a pretty harmless ability. I just think it's thematically clunky (i.e. when I think "dragon", I don't think "fast healing for everyone").
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Hogarth - Thanks for the feedback. I see you have some of the same hesitation I did, which for me as a DM is a warning that something is up.I wouldn't say I had any hesitation about it; it seems like a pretty harmless ability. I just think it's thematically clunky (i.e. when I think "dragon", I don't think "fast healing for everyone").
Sorry, didn't mean to misrepresent your opinion. Hesitation was perhaps the wrong word, but I can't think of something appropriate. Basically, of more than one opinion of the matter. I've put quotations around the word in my post at least.
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/IMHO
The dragon shaman vitality aura is really nice to have. It isn't overpowered at all. I think it's main benefits are to take some of the burden from a cleric, so the cleric can: not be just a "healing battery", doesn't use as much of his resources on healing, and can actually play the cleric as himself without having to HEAL all the time.
/IMHO end
/actual play
I've played with a few GM's that were hesitant to let the ability into the game and had the same 'knee jerk' reaction to it. Once they saw it in play all 4 didn't have a problem with it. Also the clerics in the game (3 out of four games) were glad to have some relief from the 'healing' burden.
It also lets the party continue playing as opposed to 'camping' because the cleric is out of spells.
/actual play end
It's your game and you should play it as you see fit.
I would suggest however suggest that you play it as it is first to see how it works in your game before changing it. Also, ask your cleric player, if you have one, how they feel about getting a bit of help in the healing department. (I bet they would appreciate the help.)
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A dragon shaman with this ability effectively negates the need for clerics in a campaign world.
Would you explain this?
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A cleric is SO MUCH more than a 'healing battery'.
The aura does not:
+ get a character to full hit points like a cleric can.
+ does not turn undead like a cleric can
+ does not cure blindness/deafness, remove disease, remove poison like a cleric can
+ does not commune like a cleric can
+ does not wind walk or provide freedom of movement like a cleric can
+ does not rebuke undead like a cleric can
+ etc. ...
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I can't remember the exact text, or if I'm remembering this part from other fast healing abilities, but if you wanted to limit it a little bit (if it isn't already in the description), make it so that it only heals damage taken while the aura is active so that he can't go changing auras and then getting everyone back to 1/2 hp after a fight.
I agree that it isn't that bad in actual play. even at low levels since half hp is pretty low then, and at high levels you might be dropped faster than you can heal with what you might be fighting. But changing it so that it can only heal what has been done while it was active (being outside the range and taking damage, then coming back in would not work in this case, just to clarify. I am a rules lawyer and I know how to deal with my own kind) would fix your idea of a dragon shaman walking through a battlefield and bringing everyone back to fighting condition.
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I can't remember the exact text, or if I'm remembering this part from other fast healing abilities, but if you wanted to limit it a little bit (if it isn't already in the description), make it so that it only heals damage taken while the aura is active so that he can't go changing auras and then getting everyone back to 1/2 hp after a fight.
I agree that it isn't that bad in actual play. even at low levels since half hp is pretty low then, and at high levels you might be dropped faster than you can heal with what you might be fighting. But changing it so that it can only heal what has been done while it was active (being outside the range and taking damage, then coming back in would not work in this case, just to clarify. I am a rules lawyer and I know how to deal with my own kind) would fix your idea of a dragon shaman walking through a battlefield and bringing everyone back to fighting condition.
It is a realistic fix, but it could be a burden in having to track seperate damage columns (aura active, aura not).
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just have like a card or something on the table with what active aura he has on where everyone can see it. When he tosses it down, start the fast healing. Maybe the max number of targets per aura might be a better fix, because I know I'm good with the numbers, but it's not everybody's cup o' tea.
Maybe just see how it plays out for a session or two. If you begin to see a problem, tell the player that it's going to be modified slightly, but also tell him up front about the test phase so you won't just be dropping some new rules on him after 2 sessions. Many things are much different in practice than they are in theory.
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The dragon shaman vitality aura is really nice to have. It isn't overpowered at all. I think it's main benefits are to take some of the burden from a cleric, so the cleric can: not be just a "healing battery", doesn't use as much of his resources on healing, and can actually play the cleric as himself without having to HEAL all the time.
I'm going to address your points one at a time. Not being critical, I just want it to be clear what I am responding to. First off, as I stated, I don't have a problem with the ability being "overpowered" in terms of normal gameplay. It is overpowered when you can heal/stablize 31 people every 6 seconds.
I've played with a few GM's that were hesitant to let the ability into the game and had the same 'knee jerk' reaction to it. Once they saw it in play all 4 didn't have a problem with it. Also the clerics in the game (3 out of four games) were glad to have some relief from the 'healing' burden.
It also lets the party continue playing as opposed to 'camping' because the cleric is out of spells.
I agree, and I have heard several DMs comment to the same effect - it keeps the party going, which is fine. Except it doesn't just apply to the party. Also, I think a lot of DMs make the mistake of "dismissing" knee-jerk reactions to things, especially if their players get all doe-eyed. To an experienced DM, a knee-jerk is a sign something is screwy.
It's your game and you should play it as you see fit.
I would suggest however suggest that you play it as it is first to see how it works in your game before changing it. Also, ask your cleric player, if you have one, how they feel about getting a bit of help in the healing department. (I bet they would appreciate the help.)
I also appreciate your suggestions and balanced criticism. However, we did play with it for about 8 hours. In that time the ability was used for every encounter to stabilize/heal NPCs quickly and in large numbers. Playing a Divine Bard DMPC, I selected cure minor wounds as one of 4 0th level spells known. I felt like I was wasting my time, since I never had to use it. Even the dragon shaman player started questioning why he even put ranks into Heal.
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A dragon shaman with this ability effectively negates the need for clerics in a campaign world.Would you explain this?
A cleric is SO MUCH more than a 'healing battery'.
The aura does not:
+ get a character to full hit points like a cleric can.
+ does not turn undead like a cleric can
+ does not cure blindness/deafness, remove disease, remove poison like a cleric can
+ does not commune like a cleric can
+ does not wind walk or provide freedom of movement like a cleric can
+ does not rebuke undead like a cleric can
+ etc. ...
But the ability to heal is normally the major domain of the cleric - the only class with full healing progressions for spells, and the ability to spontaneously cast healing. They ARE the de facto healers of a world, both for quantity and quality of healing provided. People with physical wounds seeking a healer go to see a cleric in most cases. Potions of curing are a staple of temples. Also, shamans eventually get the ability to remove some conditions with a touch.
Why bother paying for casting when you can go stand next to a dragon shaman for a minute and be in near perfect health! Since it takes no effort for a shaman to have an aura activated, the cost is negligible. They get paid a flat rate to stand around healing people in near unlimited numbers (see below). This is the problem from a DMs eyes:
On any given 24-hour day, healing human commoners (2hp max):
1st Level Cleric: 3 Commoners (-9 to -8), 2 Commoners (-9 to (-7 to 0).
1st Level Dragon Shaman: 44,640* Commoners (-9 to 1 hp).
*That is 30ft radius, affecting 31 people around the shaman, 1 minute to heal 10 hp, times 60 minutes per hour times 24 hours per day. This is optimized to have the shaman walking around to clustered groups, but any division of this number is too much to justify.
EDIT: I've also heard that WotC considered fast healing one of the most powerful abilities a character could get, yet they hand out a permanent version to 1st level characters with only slight limitations. What gives?
On a slightly related note, hence seperate post, does anyone know of any spells that remove the sickened or nauseated condition?
It kind of bothers me that dragon shamans can remove them with a touch, but clerics may not be able to even with spells.
The only spells I know offhand that can do this is Heal & Mass Heal.
I'd add the limit of 4 + CHA or some such. As noted, you don't want a dragon shaman healing an entire army, the entire crew of the boat, etc. At high level, my player's shaman was healing up the party, the druid's animal companion, the three summoned creatures, the mounts, familiars, etc.
I didn't like the "feel" of the dragon shaman either - what's a dragon got to do with healing? And he does overshadow the cleric with his ability to heal WAY more per day. It does keep the group adventuring though. It was SOP to heal to half after every battle and then have the cleric/bard step in to top everyone off.
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I'd add the limit of 4 + CHA or some such. As noted, you don't want a dragon shaman healing an entire army, the entire crew of the boat, etc. At high level, my player's shaman was healing up the party, the druid's animal companion, the three summoned creatures, the mounts, familiars, etc.
I didn't like the "feel" of the dragon shaman either - what's a dragon got to do with healing? And he does overshadow the cleric with his ability to heal WAY more per day. It does keep the group adventuring though. It was SOP to heal to half after every battle and then have the cleric/bard step in to top everyone off.
Yeah, my player didn't really like the suggestion of X+Cha, at least when I made it. Personally I feel it is a more elegant solution, since it would apply to all the shamans auras. But it doesn't quite fix the problem of the vitality aura, since it would limit their maximum numbers by about 1/8th - and it doesn't prevent them from being a ranged medic.
The reason your player doesn't like it is that you're taking something away from him without giving him anything in return. The Dragon Shaman is not an over-powering class to begin with; you admit that your bone to pick with vigor aura is that it doesn't fit your world not its power. So, since you're nerfing one of the most useful auras he's got, add the option of another aura or make the vigor aura do a little something extra.
Basically, it's about fairness. You should give a little if you're going to take a little.
Yeah, my player didn't really like the suggestion of X+Cha, at least when I made it. Personally I feel it is a more elegant solution, since it would apply to all the shamans auras. But it doesn't quite fix the problem of the vitality aura, since it would limit their maximum numbers by about 1/8th - and it doesn't prevent them from being a ranged medic.
ALL of the auras?! Really?!
Yeah, I'd hate that option as a player. My DM telling me that he wants to take the signature ability of my class and give it a radical decrease in use and power? No thanks. That's the DM saying, "I don't want you to play this class."
Look, the Dragon Shaman basically functions as a bard, with better martial ability but no spell casting. I can see the problem you have with the vigor aura, but to apply this solution to all auras is basically to nuke the problem from orbit. It solves the problem, sure, but it takes everything that's neat about the class and kills that too.
Ive DMed a couple of games with Dragon Shamans, and play in one.
Regarding the vigor aura replacing a cleric for healing. Actually since it only heals half way, it replaces half a cleric, taking a lot of the pressure off the poor cleric. Also if the DS uses this aura, he can't use the others, only one can be used at a time.
And he can't use it 24 hours a day, because he has to sleep. (In jest) What exactly happened to that city where all the tens of thousands of commoners got blasted to -9 hit points.
If you want to limit this kind of mass healing from whatever catastrophy happened, define "heals all allies" as people the DS is actually allied with and not everyone who might be damaged below half.
As to healing being dragonish, its not. But it is shamanish, so its okay by me.
But like others have suggested, if you must nerf it, give something as a replacement. I'm not entirely sure, but I think there are some other auras in Dragon Magic that are for a prestige class, but could be used for Dragon Shaman.
-Jack
I let the player in my game do dragon shaman as is; we have played for months; doesnt seem to cause any real problems or shift anything; if anything the healer types like that they can focus on other stuff except in battles where the fast heal makes no differece; healer spells are still needed to keep people alive in those crisis moments. As an after battle thing it seems to keep the game going without the pc's having to "rest" all the time; hide out and rest up which just delays the game and inhibits the flow of play.
if it concerns you; just put dragon shamans on both sides of a conflict; balances the dynamic.
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2) The shaman selects a number of creatures in its aura up to 3 + Cha modifier (this would apply to all the shaman auras).
I was just thinking that this would address the actual concern you have (a single Dragon Shaman wandering through a field hospital and healing an entire army to half-strength), without having any real effect on the characters combat utility. Just make sure that whatever the number is, would cover the entire party, and that the Dragon Shaman is automatically included without taking up a slot, so that the Dragon Shaman's player doesn't feel 'nerfed.' (Some figures, such as Familiars, Special Mounts and Animal Companions, might not need to be marked individually, as they have a Share Spell feature and are treated more as extensions of the Wizard, Paladin or Ranger.)
Indeed, to have more of a 'Shaman' feel, the Dragon Shaman might even go through a special ritual (only need to do this once per character, not daily or anything) where he 'marks' another character and his auras will now treat them as an ally (this ritual would require no costly components and take a minute, mainly just him drawing a rune on them, which they can promptly wash off, as it's the act of 'marking' them that matters, not the prescence of the mark). He can only have X number of 'allies' marked at a time, and those will be the only people his auras affect. He can erase a mark (to make room to mark someone else) at any time as a free action, with no range requirement.
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Set, I think you have a pretty good fluff fix for the ability. I'll talk to the player about it next time we meet. I'm not too concerned about enforcing the rule, as the Shaman is not his main PC. It's a lot easier to adjudicate a hard limit on number affected rather than the mathematical of option A.
Plus, the whole "ally" aspect is a bit of a gray area that gets shored up nicely with this solution.
To some other responses, we have played with it and it gets ridiculous. An roomful of 12 enemies, and 4 guards, all unconscious and dying. The dragon shaman just said "They're my allies." and then stabilized everyone in the room. Without that feature, the party would have saved 2-3 lives, probably opting for the guards. It eliminated the choice and consequence of gameplay.
Keep in mind, I favour grim-and-gritty over high fantasy.
To some other responses, we have played with it and it gets ridiculous. An roomful of 12 enemies, and 4 guards, all unconscious and dying. The dragon shaman just said "They're my allies." and then stabilized everyone in the room. Without that feature, the party would have saved 2-3 lives, probably opting for the guards. It eliminated the choice and consequence of gameplay.
In the glossary of the Player's Handbook, "allies" are defined as creatures friendly to you. They decide if they are your ally, not you deciding that you're their friend suddenly. So, no, the unconscious and dying guards cannot be the Shaman's allies from a legalistic approach or a common sense approach. ("How are they your allies? You just tried to kill them and killed their friends.") Even if they wanted to be saved by this power, they couldn't choose to become friendly with the PC because they lack consciousness.
To my mind, that's not a game mechanics issue. It's just a bad call by the DM and the DM has to say that next time that's not going to be allowed. The DM decides who is and who isn't an ally.
For that matter, creatures that are indifferent to you might not count either, which would also limit the Shaman's heal 100,000s concern.
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I don't know why anyone's got an issue with this. It says right in the descriptor that it only affects allies in a 30 foot radius. Unless that "army" is his, they're not going to heal up. Also, figure out exactly how many minis can fit in a 30 ft radius around the guy. That's his limit. If there's 400 people who are dying (ie taking a -1), he can't just run through them all and give them +1 and stabilization. He has to stand in that 5 ft square for one round and heal the allies in that circle. If he leaves to go tend to another ally somewhere else, those outside the aura are now that much more open. I'm in a group of idiots that all go before me (the cleric) so I can only ever Bless 2-3 of the (including myself). Party members are going to go down. It's just a matter of time. And the local villagers, aren't necessarily going to benefit from the aura. Joe Blow down the street, whom you just met two hours ago, isn't going to be benefit because he's not an ally unless the DM deems he is.
However, I would allow this. If the DS has Leadership, all cohorts and followers would be considered allies. Even then though, you can only do so much to so many before someone goes down.