A wish costs 25,000 gp per +1 inherent bonus to an ability score, and drops another ability score by a full point in exchange. A manual or tome at retail costs 27,500 gp per +1 inherent bonus to an ability score, and there is no corresponding drawback. The manual/tome, accordingly, is unquestionably superior to the spell for characters looking to improve an ability score . . . a mere 10% increase in cost in exchange for a total avoidance of negative consequences.
Is this a deliberate thematic choice? A bit of subtle game-balance I'm missing? If neither, a revision should bring them into closer accord.
My suggestion would be to get rid of the ability-score-drop aspect for wishes, and then drop the maximum inherent bonus from wishes from +5 to, say, +2. Then drop manuals and tomes of less than +3 bonus from the game. Wishes then can be used to give yourself a mild boost, while you have to find or make a tome/manual to get a really big boost.
You do make a valid point there, with the wish-related inherent bonuses being trumped by the tome-related ones.
I propose the following:
Either give characters a refund of the ability score points they dropped when they read the appropriate tome (for example, a fighter used 5 wishes to take 5 points from Cha and add 5 points to Str; he later reads a tome of str +5, overwriting his previous wishes choice, and refunding those points to charisma).
OR make wish-redistributions of attribute points an unnamed bonus or a simple redistribution of base attribute points. In this way, they function just like the level based attribute gains, they are adding to the base ability scores and they stack with any and everything.
The latter choice makes more sense; wishes would have their own unique potential, and the value and function of magical inherent ability score bonuses are retained.
Now that I think about it, a wish could let a player redistribute a level-based ability score point too, right? The wish spell is supposed to be about altering reality.
Personally, I hate the way Wish works. It's a ninth level spell with an exorbitant gp cost that will probably kill you if you try to use it for anything other than exactly what's listed... so it's ok for it's results to be spectacular instead of icky and uninteresting.
Whose idea was it to have Wish lower another ability score when it bumps your stats? It's a terrible idea. Why would you do this? What does it add to the game (which assumes you'll have increased stats at that level)?
Edit: in fact, I need to emphasize those points: Why would you do this? What does it add to the game/how does it improve gameplay?
If there is no direct, specific, easy answer to those questions when you're making a change, you probably shouldn't make it. This applies to everything from the new subsystem for the Barbarian to the thoroughly unnecessary "shield penalty applies to AB" note in Weapon Finesse to the change to Cleave.
It feels like a lot of Pathfinder's changes are, more or less, blind shots in the dark, rather than carefully thought-out changes to fit a design goal.
A wish costs 25,000 gp per +1 inherent bonus to an ability score, and drops another ability score by a full point in exchange. A manual or tome at retail costs 27,500 gp per +1 inherent bonus to an ability score, and there is no corresponding drawback. The manual/tome, accordingly, is unquestionably superior to the spell for characters looking to improve an ability score . . . a mere 10% increase in cost in exchange for a total avoidance of negative consequences.
I noticed the same thing as well, but I personally dislike the new addition to Wish that gives a penalty to another ability score. It's one of the very few things I don't like about the Pathfinder system.
Well, I do agree that the Tomes/Manuals are way too much good compared to the Wish spell. It's true that some items based on some spells are more better that the actual spells on which they are based (see Dust of Disappearance, for example; no magical spell such as See Invisibility or Invisibility Purge can dispel the invisibility granted by the item), but these objects have a cost, while the spells usually don't.
Maybe this time Pathfinder have stretched a bit too much the need to "tone down" some powerful spell/item/whatsoever. I personally welcome the nerfing of the Wish spell towards the increase of Ability Scores (never liked very much characters who suddenly buff all their ability scores when reach high levels), but the Tomes now are in comparison very powerful.
Perhaps (my suggestion) keeping the penalty for the Wish spell but applying the gp cost only once (that is, only 5000 gp for a - let's call it "Ability Swap" - )? After all, the character wishes for ONE of his abilities to go up - the mechanics requires the casting of multiple Wishes, but the real wish is effectively just the same.
This could give a choice: 5000 gp for a swap, or 27500+ gp (up to 137500 gp) for a true boost? A character with the appropriate feats could still create the item, but it would require more time (and still a large cash of money).
Just a suggestion for the final release...
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Maybe this time Pathfinder have stretched a bit too much the need to "tone down" some powerful spell/item/whatsoever. I personally welcome the nerfing of the Wish spell towards the increase of Ability Scores (never liked very much characters who suddenly buff all their ability scores when reach high levels), but the Tomes now are in comparison very powerful.
I don't find Wish in need of toning down. If a character has 27,000 gp that they want to spend for a minor effect on game play, they are welcome to in my game. Even if they used multiple wishes in a row, and they had 135,000 gp to increase *one* ability, that's still not going to break the game at the level they would be at.
Well, as far as I know, you actually can create a Tome/Manual; the Web Enhancement lists as a requisite the Craft Wondrous Item feat. Of couse, as a GM you can always deny that possibility to your players.
Looking better at the description of the new Wish spell (my fault, I was going by memory) it actually lists the component price as 25000 gp, which "throws out of the window" my previous suggestion of the price (5000 gp for a single spell... what was I thinking !?!). However, the price for the new Tomes must be set accordingly to this price, because the cost to create is currently half the value of a single Wish spell (!) multiplied by the applications of the Wish itself. In fact, judging the "usual" market prices, a Tome +1 would be (25000gp x2 plus 2500) 52500 gp. THAT would fix the issue (real buff vs Ability Swap)
I think this is a matter for the Errata...
It's just as easy to limit player's access to 25,000 gp diamonds (necessary to cast wish) as it is to limit their access to tomes/manuals. "None available to purchase, none in your treasure" works in both cases. So there's no availability differential that favors the wish, and thus justifies the wish having such a huge drawback compared to the manual/tome.
As far as the cost of the item to make, miracle requires no material components, and is a valid alternate to wish for making a tome/manual.
Never played long enough to get wishes or tome/manual, So I never had to deal with the problem. But if I remember well, in Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter nights, you could only benefits once from each tome. If ruled this way it could be a resonable solution, don't you think?
Never played long enough to get wishes or tome/manual, So I never had to deal with the problem. But if I remember well, in Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter nights, you could only benefits once from each tome. If ruled this way it could be a resonable solution, don't you think?
In both the case of the wish and the tome/manual, the ability score raises are typed as "inherent", which means they don't stack (minor exemption for wishes cast in immediate succession, up to five). Fifteen +2 Manuals of Bodily Health and two wishes for increased constitution sill only nets +2 to constitution.
The wish should grant a permanent point swap, not an inherent bonus. Wishes don't need to be cast in succession either. That's more in keeping with the dangerous nature of the spell, keeping the wish-points potentially valuable while keeping manuals and tomes as useful for the type of bonuses they grant.
I'm in favor of getting rid of the Ability score "swap" aspect of the new Wish.
However, on a minor point:
Manuals/Tomes previously could be crafted in from 3-13 days, making them very quick options. With the new system they take from 28-138 days, and I do feel this far longer time could justify the difference between the Wish spell and the books. [Though I hadn't considered the half price aspect of including the material component cost into the base price of the book].
I do like this suggestion:
My suggestion would be to get rid of the ability-score-drop aspect for wishes, and then drop the maximum inherent bonus from wishes from +5 to, say, +2. Then drop manuals and tomes of less than +3 bonus from the game. Wishes then can be used to give yourself a mild boost, while you have to find or make a tome/manual to get a really big boost.
That knocks out the "okay, the Wizard hit 17th level, time to burn a billion gold improving all all ability scores" that *WOULD* be a problem now that XP is completely out of the equation now. Taking 9 years out to craft +5 books for all stats for a 4-person party would be a whole other reason to skip it though.