Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk Playtest

[Jal Dorak]

Here is a recap from my recently run adventure using PRPG rules:

1) Character Creation

2 characters were used for the game, running at 9th level and with a 40 point-buy system, allowing 1 trait and 1 flaw from Unearthed Arcana. The idea was to test the increased power of the characters against survivability in a 2-PC party.

Adjustments had to be made to the new point-buy math, requiring the players to have the pdf in front of them for aid.

The new skill system was received well, assigning skills was easier and took about the same amount of time as a 3.5 character despite changes to the skills. After some discussion, it was decided to keep the Use Rope skill and not require a Fly skill, but all other changes were incorporated. With both characters multiclassing, it was surprising easy to adjust to new class skills and skill point allocations.

Feats were made available from all published sources, which required eliminating the PRPG feat changes, so I cannot report on this system except to comment on its absence later.

As this was a preliminary test, so I did not overburden myself with new spell mechanics, but more on this later.

Overall the reaction to character creation was enthusiastic, with requests to use the PRPG feats

Both characters benefited from the favored class mechanic and increased ability scores from the races, with the players happily creating a human rogue and half-orc cleric.

2) Play: The Good

CMB was well received both by players and the DM. The players enjoyed having a static target number for maneuvers, knowing that one number rolled on the d20 would have the same effect on the same opponent if rolled again. For the DM, calculating CMB was easy based on a creatures Grapple modifier with small adjustments in some cases. In some cases it made some monsters more difficult, but in a good way, for example the Hill Giants in the War Tower bull-rushing opponents onto the Grell netting.

Changes to HD made adjusting non-core classes to PRPG easy and increased the survivability of the party.

The new turning mechanic was used a few times, mostly out of combat for fear of healing the enemy. When used against undead (most notably the War Wagon encounter) it provided an interesting new strategy for clerics and was adjudicated much more quickly than the previous turning table (and also gave the players less idea how powerful their foes were).

2) Play: The Bad

There was no noticeable complaint about the rules-set itself.
There was a lot of information to digest for one playtest, and the group regretted not having the chance to get to everything.

3) Play: The Ugly

The rules in some cases interact very poorly with some splatbooks. For example, the Knockback feat was previously very powerful, but in PRPG with the changes to CMB the feat became even more powerful when combined with Improved Trip. As a qualifier, the group was using 3.5 feats, but if we had used PRPG the Knockback feat would not have much precedent. I feel DMs will often have to choose, on a one-for-one basis what works and what doesn't.

A good idea might be for the community to put up a list of feats/spells that don't work well in PRPG.

The new spells, as pointed out by a player, would have saved the adventure from derailing. One player received a cloak of arachnida as part of their starting package. Coupled with casting web from duskblade levels, this PC singlehandedly ended each encounter up to the tiefling assassin, at which point I had to call the adventure to retool (obviously, a combination of elements was at play, but this was the breaking factor). The PRPG web spell is much easier to adjudicate and less save-or-die in effect, and the cloak of arachnida is less of a blanket immunity, which would have spared the DM some headache.

Overall it was a good experience, enough so to encourage another player to download the Beta rules to learn them. I hope to get some more detailed and full playtests done later, but I did come to 2 conclusions:

1) Most of the changes are good, but become unbalanced if not used in entirety - PRPG is all or nothing. I'm not sure how this speaks to backwards compatability, because I was not operating entirely with 3.5 core rules only.

2) I need to learn the rules better before running another game.

[Kyrinn S. Eis]

"Overall it was a good experience, enough so to encourage another player to download the Alpha rules to learn them."

I imagine you meant the Beta, rather than the Alpha, yes?

[Jal Dorak]

Kyrinn S. Eis wrote:

"Overall it was a good experience, enough so to encourage another player to download the Alpha rules to learn them."

I imagine you meant the Beta, rather than the Alpha, yes?

Whoops, indeed I did. A little hangover from typing Alpha so much over the last few months. I've corrected my original post.

[Jal Dorak]

So with help from my avid player who also began learning the rules, I rebooted my Greyhawk adventure using the PRPG Beta in entirety. The adventure begins with 3 PCs of 9th level using 25 point-buy and 46000gp starting wealth.

The PCs are:

Valis: NG m human rog2/ftr9
Brom: NG m dwarf clr9 [of Sarenrae/Pelor]
Lanya: N f gnome sor9 [aberrant]

I won't recap my initial discussions regarding character creation save that the new class rules encouraged the players to stay with one class, using multiclassing only to acquire class features that aided the party as a whole, such as trapfinding.

The playtest is in progress, but I can report a few things so far:

black tentacles gives me pause as a DM - the initial grapple CMB is reasonable, however once an opponent is grappled it becomes very difficult for a creature to escape (which could be a problem with the CMB mechanic and a flat DC: offensive it balances fine, but when used defensively to escape a grapple it becomes very swingy (either you are so good you always succeed or so bad you never escape). The sorcerer had a +14 to grapple, which gave a 50% chance to grapple a level 4 orc fighter. When the orcs tried to escape, the had to beat the CMB of 29 which meant they needed a natural 20 (5% chance). In addition, it became unclear whether this spell gained a +5 to CMB for only its grapple attempts when already grappling (ie to maintain the grapple), or to its CMB when already grappling (ie when an opponent tries to escape, the CMB gets the +5 bonus making it even more powerful).

The bulk of CMB when attacking the DC relies on your roll, but my group felt it would be better to readjust the values of the maneuver feats back to +4, or adjust CMB target to 11+modifiers (easier to succeed for attack and defense).

It was unclear how to price certain items. Namely, a wand of restoration. When crafting/buying this item, can you choose to have the 100gp version or the 1000gp version? Are you stuck with the 1000gp version? My ruling was that since you make all decisions about casting when creating the item, you can choose and thus the item is either but not both. However, this might not be clear to some.

Does a weapon's enhancement bonus add to any CMB when using the weapon (such as sunder)? And by extension, does a feat such as Weapon Focus? The description of shatterspike in the web enhancement suggests this is the case, but nothing in the CMB rules seems to mention this. I ruled yes (but only when using the weapon to perform the maneuver), but again it is unclear.

Is it at all possible to overcome physical damage reduction such as DR 5/slashing? The rules suggest no, but it is not made clear. The rules suggest some types of DR can be overcome, and also by magic weapons, but it doesn't say that magic cannot overcome this type of DR. More of confusing wording over a few paragraphs than a rules issue.

Aid Another could be clarified above and beyond the 3.5 rules: does a creature continue to gain the benefits of this special action even if the creature initiating it is killed? This comes up a lot, and could be spelled out in the description.

More to come...

[Jal Dorak]

Just got through a huge field battle between the Wartower Wardens and the Greyhawk Militia (okay, so the adventure says the Wardens flee, but I couldn't resist the opportunity for a full-scale battle!). I had to prepare NPCs for both sides as they were not provided in the adventure (as per that they normally retreat if threatened).

To illustrate the work, the two sides were:
The Dwarves
Stillguar (dwarf clr9/ftr6 [of Vergadain])
Gorpledonn (gnome sor8)
2 Lieutenants (dwarf ftr7)
6 Greataxe Soldiers (dwarf ftr4)
4 Waraxe+Shield Soldiers (dwarf ftr4)

Greyhawk
Ricard Damaris (human ftr9, longsword and spring attack)
2 Lieutenants (human ftr8, longsword)
4 Glaive Soldiers (human ftr3)
2 Greataxe Soldiers (human ftr3)
3 Sword+Shield Soldiers (human ftr3)
3 Ranseur Soldiers (human ftr3, with disarm)

And the PCs (see above).

I won't go into details of the battle except for a few comments on this rather hefty fighter playtest.

My main point is that generating NPCs took very little time above the normal amount for creating NPCs from the 3.5 DMG (even for human fighters). The biggest thing I kept forgetting was the new racial ability adjustments. Creating 22 NPCs of 3-4 level, 6 NPCs of 7-9 level (including sorcerer), and a 15th level NPC required 1.5 hours which is a pretty reasonable amount of time given the new rules to check. A player helped write down the non-casters as I looked up the rules, so that saved some time. Neither of us found it particularly difficult. CMBs did get a little bit complicated when you had 6 different ones (offensive, defensive, offensive with weapon, defensive with weapon, offensive for specialized, defensive for specialized). We are still operating under the assumption that as an attack roll, you gain enhancement bonus and Weapon Focus bonus to your CMB if you are using a weapon to execute (such as trip or sunder).

One player is using a sunder-specialized fighter, and again CMB seems to be making his life too easy. Purchasing a +2 shatterspike adamantine longsword and taking Improved Sunder and Defensive Training his PC has +23 to Sunder attempts and a defensive CMB of 33 (along with an AC of 30). With the exception of other fighters of his level, it is very difficult to resist his Sunder attempts unless I ensure NPCs have Defensive Training (and/or Improved Sunder).

If he wants, he wades into battle and Sunders everything, knowing that the cleric's mending spell will fix some of the treasure he might destroy. These two factors really combine poorly and have ended some combats very quickly. Even if an enemy has 2-3 weapons, he can simply sunder each one in turn. As a result, spellcasters have to resort to targetting his Will save to remove him from the battle. In this particular battle, he was subject to hold person and summarily executed by a dwarf lieutenant with a waraxe. Granted, not everything is an NPC with weapons, but looking ahead through the adventure, I notice quite a few monsters with low ACs and to-hit. Again, I reiterate, it is nice that the fighter has a good AC effectively making them not worry about low-level combatants (very much feels like 2nd Edition), I am finding that creatures around 2 levels lower than the Fighter often require a natural 20 to hit.

My initial suggestion is to have armor training apply to either melee or ranged attacks (possibly with an increase in value, say +1). This would give enemies more options for combating the fighter, and support the ranged/melee outlook the player chooses for their character.

I initially liked the favored class mechanic, but I am noticing something as a DM. Almost every NPC the party encounters has extra hp from this and toughness. This essentially negates the benefit of the fighter's Weapon Training.

Comment about the Ranger's favored terrain bonus: Is it really necessary to have the initiative bonus at only +1? I find it awkward constructing ranger statblocks and having to write

My statblocks wrote:

"favored terrain (x) +2 (and +1 initiative)"

. I think it would be cleaner, not unbalanced, and more interesting as a player, to just give them a +2 initiative.

Please clarify whether or not temporary hit points stack (and put a limit on them, perhaps twice your maximum, if they do).

Weapon and Armor training are spaced out enough that a multiclass character does not experience much benefit unless they commit to fighter levels (based on Stillguar, who was an effective combatant but not much moreso than if he had remained as a cleric). Most of the time he was either a 9th level cleric, or about a 12th level fighter. Had he been all of one (15th level cleric or 15th level fighter) the fight would have been much more deadly. I see this as a good thing, as it means the new fighter class is not unbalancing multiclass characters.

As an end result, the PCs one. They lost one PC (raised and restored to normal), 6 Militia, and 1 lieutenant. The dwarves lost Stillguar and 7 warriors. The gnome escaped and the militia took 3 prisoners. Given the numbers favoring the militia and the levels favoring the dwarves (only slightly due to Stillguar). Using an EL calculator, the militia (with PCs) comes out as EL 15 and the dwarves as EL 16 (although as a challenge to the PCs it still rates as deadly, thanks to Stillguar).

More to come as the PCs delve into level 6 to stop the General!

[Jal Dorak]

This warrants another post:

Using these three level 9 characters, the party was able to tackle 5 encounters of EL 8-10. By the end of the day (about 3-4 hours of game time in a dungeon) our renewable resources were depleted, but we had full hp for each character and some wands and potions.

[Jal Dorak]

After an action-packed weekend, the PCs were able to delve into Greyhawk again and defeat the General!

In one delve the PCs (now level 10) defeated encounters of 7, 8, 9, 11, 10, and 11 without retreat but were forced to stop and heal after several battles.

The first battle was against the returned Swordwraiths in the War Wagon. Seeing they had returned and knowing how the battle went, the cleric cast hide from undead which got the party into position, and then started the battle with a positive channel - the CR 7 swordwraiths had a 40% chance to make their saves, which seemed reasonable. The cleric player announced how much more fun the new turning mechanic was after using it in combat and for healing. The battle posed no threat, with only the war wagon dealing damage to the PCs.

The next fight was against a Flesh Golem wielding a +2 flaming longsword. After a helpful haste from the party sorcerer, the CR 8 golem had to roll an 18 to hit the party fighter. A lucky claw on the cleric ended up with him grappled, at which point he used his supernatural bolt of fire. While our group likes the at-will powers of the domains, I am suspect at the supernatural designation of the abilities as it allows them to bypass many special abilities of monsters that would normally be very challenging. 1d6+5 damage is also pretty valuable. The party fighter, equipped with an adamantine longsword, easily dispatched the golem. I have come to the conclusion that until the monsters are released, they need major tweaking as some CRs are off in regards to to-hit and AC.

It is also interesting to point out that having at-will cantrips, and these bolt-type supernatural powers severely devalues the damage dealt by disrupt undead. A spell that does 1d6 damage only to undead is not very good if you can deal 1d6+1/2 level energy at will, or even 1d3 energy at will, to any type of creature. Our group discussed it and reasoned that disrupt undead should perhaps get a small boost to 1d6+1/2 or even 1/3 level to make it valuable to prepare or know.

Next up was an elevator battle, pegged at EL 11. Like the golem, this battle ended up much easier than it should have been. The fighter used acrobatics to jump from the elevator to the balcony, leaving the rest of the party hanging in mid-air. 6 hobgoblin ranger/rogues had no chance to hit the party fighter, even with flanking. Aid another boosted their hit chance to 19-20, but barely dealing enough to bypass stoneskin. The hobgoblin master, CR 7 ranger/fighter, needed an 18 to hit with flank, 16 with aid another. His damage could bypass the stoneskin, but only with luck. The fiendish worgs could not reach any PCs, so after one was killed by flamestrike the other retreated. The best thing I can note for this battle was that even though the hobgoblins had very little chance of hurting the PCs, they had enough hp to keep the battle going for 7 rounds. I've said it before, but scaling fighter AC makes them untouchable.

Next up was a huge battle - combining an EL 10 and EL 9 into one battle across three rooms. With warning from the worg, the dark naga readies itself to attack the PCs. They ignore its chamber, so it jumps them when they engage the room ahead.

Across a chasm, two gargoyle zombies fly in and do their job of distracting the PCs for 3 rounds while warning three clerics and allowing them to buff. The new cleric domains made clerics take a little longer to make, as I looked up the domains, but also gave them more options in preparation for battle, such as being able to cast protection from good 4/day.

Three dretches came into play after round 2, casting stinking cloud and forcing the sorcerer to retreat from the chasm. The party fighter stepped over the bridge and engaged the dretches with confidence. At this point the dark naga revealed itself, having the worg charge forward, barely missing the sorcerers AC of 21.

The dark naga threw 4 lightning bolts at the party, draining some hp from the sorcerer and cleric. Unable to act due to nausea, the sorcerer was helped by the cleric who moved into position to channel positive energy to heal his allies (and the worg, which was uninjured).

The dretches stepped back, trying an ineffective scare on the fighter. Then the evil clerics appeared, having cast invisibility on themselves. Stepping up with a 5ft step, 3 clerics (2 CR 4 and 1 CR 8). Both CR 4 clerics hit with their greatswords, having +15 to hit the fighters flat-footed AC, one scoring a critical. The CR 8 cleric had a +20/+15 attack, only hitting once. In one round the fighter lost half his stoneskin and half his hit points - he retreats.

From there the fight becomes one between spellcasters, with the cleric and sorcerer (now active) using their best spells, including cone of cold, to lay waste to the clerics as the fighter engaged the naga. The group was satisfied with this fight, having at last met a decent challenge. I had fun using the CR 8 clerics rebuking to damage the entire party a few times, even though it wasn't the best option. Not often you can yell "Iuz will take your life!" and really mean it.

Finally the General, amply prepared for the PCs. The PCs healed up, and cast stoneskin on the cleric and sorcerer but not the fighter, who had about 40 points remaining. I retooled the General (CR 10 human fighter) to face the PCs using only Pathfinder rules, which meant replacing some feats. Tyraniss the blue dragon was left untouched at CR 8. The fighter charged in again, getting pinned between Tyraniss and the General, who began chipping away at his hp and stoneskin. The dragon used breath weapon on the spellcasters, or full attack to keep the fighter occupied. The fight only lasted 6 rounds, but it was action-packed. Even after the dragon fell, the General held his own, sundering (damaging) the clerics armor, the fighters armor, and even (in the best twist) the cleric's holy symbol! The General fell following several vampiric touch spells from the sorcerer, and hasted full attacks from the fighter.

Now, for interest, here is the satisfying CR 10 General, Pathfinder-style:

Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk wrote:

hp 102
AC 32, touch 19, flat-footed 29
Attack: blade of chaos +21/+21/+16 (1d8+13/17-20)
CMB: +17 (Defense 36), +22 to sunder (Defense 41)
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +9, Will +5; (+3 vs fear, resist cold 20 fire 10)
Special Attacks: Combat Reflexes, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Spring Attack
Feats: Defensive Training, Dodge, Improved Critical (longsword), Mobility, Improved Toughness, Weapon Focus (longsword), Weapon Specialization (longsword).
Gear: 1 potion of cure serious wounds, +2 breastplate, +2 heavy adamantine shield, ring of minor energy resistance (cold), ring of counterspells (hold person), cloak of resistance +1, belt of giant strength +2

Notes: General has 3 rounds of haste as well as shield of faith +3 and resist fire 10 active at start of battle. He has 100 gp more gear than his 3.5 equivalent. Also note than my group is assuming weapon/armor enhancement can add to CMB (sunder or trip), as well as Weapon Focus and Weapon Training.

[Jal Dorak]

So today the gang went to the Tower of Magic, broke into the Guild of Wizardry, and stole the Key of Zagig for Grandfather Magic. A few key points in recap:

Foolishly engaging Grandfather Magic bought the party a lesson with a Balor which ended quite quickly in surrender.

Disintegrate worked rather well with the new mechanics, a few applications from the friendly guardian beholder and our party Sorcerer (despite have 110 hit points plus temporary hp) was dust. This left the cleric and the fighter alone to take it down, and they managed to do so after several saves.

Forced to journey onward, the party encountered 3 shield guardians with +2 thundering greatclubs. They made mincemeat of the cleric (even with stoneskin) and were even a threat to the fighter. The battle was fair, with the 2-PC Party grasping at victory against the three CR 8 creatures.

I noticed that in the description of the metamagic rods it fails to indicate what level of spells these items affect.

Our replacement for the Sorcerer is a LN Elf Wiz10 [Generalist]. I have to state my dislike for the Universalist supernatural power. Using 25 point-buy, a 1st level Elf wizard can attack with +5 (1d8+5) using a longsword. Considering this is the equal of a fighter, except the wizard can attack at a range of 30 feet, this school power is definitely too good at early levels. Introducing some scaling limits would help (+Int, with a limit of caster level). Also, the power itself could be clarified. Can it attack on the first round of summoning?

Also, clarification on the school bonus spells (2nd level bonus). Do the prepared spells of your school need to be the same spell, or can you prepare different spells of your school in your bonus 1st-level spell slots?

[hogarth]

Jal Dorak wrote:

I noticed that in the description of the metamagic rods it fails to indicate what level of spells these items affect.

I think you just missed it:

"Lesser and Greater Metamagic Rods: Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower. Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower, while greater rods can be used with spells of 9th level or lower." (under the general description of Metamagic Rods)

Jal Dorak wrote:

Also, clarification on the school bonus spells (2nd level bonus). Do the prepared spells of your school need to be the same spell, or can you prepare different spells of your school in your bonus 1st-level spell slots?

You pick one bonus spell of each given level, and that's your bonus spell forever; it never changes thereafter. In effect, it's similar to the Domain Wizard variant from Unearthed Arcana (except the player gets to pick the spells in the domain).

[Jal Dorak]

hogarth wrote:

I think you just missed it:
"Lesser and Greater Metamagic Rods: Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower. Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower, while greater rods can be used with spells of 9th level or lower." (under the general description of Metamagic Rods)

Indeed you are correct, I missed it. Thanks. But now I do feel that the per day usage could be in each statblock (it would be one sentence longer) to avoid this problem for others - Paizo is striving for perfection after all. But this goes from fact to opinion.

hogarth wrote:

You pick one bonus spell of each given level, and that's your bonus spell forever; it never changes thereafter. In effect, it's similar to the Domain Wizard variant from Unearthed Arcana (except the player gets to pick the spells in the domain).

Pathfinder Beta wrote:

In addition to these abilities, each school also grants anumber of bonus spells. Whenever a wizard attains the listed level, he can choose one spell from his school to prepare every day as a bonus spell. Instead of gaining a spell of the listed level, the wizard can instead choose a spell of a lower level, which he can then prepare twice per day (except for 2nd level).
A universalist can choose spells from any school. Once chosen,
these spells cannot be changed.
2nd Level: The wizard can cast any first level spell from his
chosen school. This spell is prepared once per day for every
two caster levels he possesses.

I can see how you would read it that way, and that was my ruling as well, but the pronouns are a bit comfusing. There is a bit of a disconnect between the introduction (which clearly says one) and the 2nd Level section (which implies it could change every day). Also, does this spell have to be one you know, or does the wizard learn this spell?

[hogarth]

Jal Dorak wrote:

I can see how you would read it that way, and that was my ruling as well, but the pronouns are a bit comfusing. There is a bit of a disconnect between the introduction (which clearly says one) and the 2nd Level section (which implies it could change every day).

Yes, it's about as clear as mud (same with cleric domain spells). :)

Jal Dorak wrote:

Also, does this spell have to be one you know, or does the wizard learn this spell?

I have no idea what it's supposed to be, but I'd rule that it has to be a spell the wizard knows.

[Mactaka]

Thank you for posting your higher-level playtest reports. They are very helpful

[Jal Dorak]

Mactaka wrote:

Thank you for posting your higher-level playtest reports. They are very helpful

Your welcome! I'm happy to share.

I can definitely report that my group is having as much fun with Pathfinder as they are with 3.5, and in some areas (such as CMB) we are actually having more fun. Once we get the hang of the new system, things should go smoothly. I can envision seemless transitions between 3.5 games and PRPG games.

[Jal Dorak]

Here is some food for thought, after having to replace a 10th level character (with the party now 11th level) using the Medium advancement:

10th Level = 105000 XP
11th Level = 155000 XP
12th Level = 220000 XP

Under 3.5:

10th Level = 45000 XP
11th Level = 55000 XP
12th Level = 66000 XP

So, in PRPG the new 10th level PC requires 50000 XP to catch the party, at which point they are 77% of the way to their next level.

So, my question is, given the huge gaps between levels, and flat XP rates in PRPG, doesn't this mean that a new party member has very little chance of "catching" the others in the party? Is this intentional?

[hogarth]

Jal Dorak wrote:

Here is some food for thought, after having to replace a 10th level character (with the party now 11th level) using the Medium advancement:

10th Level = 105000 XP
11th Level = 155000 XP
12th Level = 220000 XP

Under 3.5:

10th Level = 45000 XP
11th Level = 55000 XP
12th Level = 66000 XP

So, in PRPG the new 10th level PC requires 50000 XP to catch the party, at which point they are 77% of the way to their next level.

So, my question is, given the huge gaps between levels, and flat XP rates in PRPG, doesn't this mean that a new party member has very little chance of "catching" the others in the party? Is this intentional?

Well, eventually 50,000 XP won't be a large gap (e.g. from level 17 to 18 requires 500,000 XP), but you're right -- you can't catch up if you lose a level. But why are you making the new character be one level lower than the rest of the party?

[Jal Dorak]

hogarth wrote:

Jal Dorak wrote:

Here is some food for thought, after having to replace a 10th level character (with the party now 11th level) using the Medium advancement:

10th Level = 105000 XP
11th Level = 155000 XP
12th Level = 220000 XP

Under 3.5:

10th Level = 45000 XP
11th Level = 55000 XP
12th Level = 66000 XP

So, in PRPG the new 10th level PC requires 50000 XP to catch the party, at which point they are 77% of the way to their next level.

So, my question is, given the huge gaps between levels, and flat XP rates in PRPG, doesn't this mean that a new party member has very little chance of "catching" the others in the party? Is this intentional?

Well, eventually 50,000 XP won't be a large gap (e.g. from level 17 to 18 requires 500,000 XP), but you're right -- you can't catch up if you lose a level. But why are you making the new character be one level lower than the rest of the party?

Standard operating procedure (DMG p.42). Rather than create exceptions to the rule, my groups just made it a hard and fast rule no matter the situation. I suppose, since it is a playtest, I could allow the rule to slip this once to keep things balanced.

[hogarth]

Jal Dorak wrote:

Standard operating procedure (DMG p.42). Rather than create exceptions to the rule, my groups just made it a hard and fast rule no matter the situation. I suppose, since it is a playtest, I could allow the rule to slip this once to keep things balanced.

Note, however, that Pathfinder has changed the standard operating procedure. :)

For instance, the Pathfinder version of Raise Dead no longer causes permanent level loss (which I believe the "lose 1 level" rule is supposed to be equivalent to).

[Jal Dorak]

hogarth wrote:

Jal Dorak wrote:

Standard operating procedure (DMG p.42). Rather than create exceptions to the rule, my groups just made it a hard and fast rule no matter the situation. I suppose, since it is a playtest, I could allow the rule to slip this once to keep things balanced.

Note, however, that Pathfinder has changed the standard operating procedure. :)

For instance, the Pathfinder version of Raise Dead no longer causes permanent level loss (which I believe the "lose 1 level" rule is supposed to be equivalent to).

Your statement appears to be the case. However, I believe the original -1 level rule was instated to prevent players from "suiciding" their character and get a brand new PC at the same level but with better customized equipment.

[Jal Dorak]

Today the brave adventurers left the confines of their refuge bottle only to find themselves in a trap set by the cultists of Iuz.

Facing 5 level 6 clerics (and on round 3 a mohrg) turned into an interesting battle. Several clerics used rebuking, while others healed the damage dealt to party members by such attempts. The party fighter turned the General's (see earlier post) own tactics against his troops by sundering two holy symbols per round. Overall it was a fairly decent fight for 2 level 10 characters.

But then the mohrg arrived. As the fighter tried to move to sunder another holy symbol, he incurred an attack of opportunity, which the mohrg used to paralyze him. Rolling a 2 on his save, the party cleric had to use up his remove paralysis to free him. The next turn was the mohrgs, again paralyzing the fighter as he fumbled his save.

Just as the cultists lined up their longswords (by the way, loving the option as a DM to give clerics and wizards martial weapons) for a coup de grace, a new face arrived:

Sha'el Gatewarden (LN elf wizard 11), using teleport. A successful attack of opportunity struck one cleric, but they still managed to slay the fighter as he failed his fortitude save.

Using a maximized disintegrate to slay the mohrg, which was very cool (DC 24 for half damage meant almost no chance to save). A fireball and flamestrike took out the remaining clerics.

Now the party is burying their dead, hiding their gear in a secret chest and awaiting somebody to help them accomplish their missions.