Director of Brand Strategy
|
In response to Jason's question in the welcome post, I thought I'd start the discussion on this new mechanic.
I think that adding a bonus for taking favored class is a great idea. It is a much better approach than simply taking a favored class to avoid the multiclassing penalty. Better to encourage one option than discourage the alternative.
I personally love the change from Alpha to Beta for favored class bonus. In either case, a single hit point or skill point is not game breaking in a balance sense. It actually adds the ability for someone to take levels in fighter, cleric, or sorcerer and get that extra skill they need for either roleplay/background purposes or to not have an ineffective character, and also gives the low hd classes a little boost if they choose to go with it.
The one downside to it is that it can be a pain for conversions of 3.5 NPCs and characters. I found, for example, that converting Tsuto Kaijitsu from PF1 required me to deconstruct all his skill points to determine which class (monk or rogue) he took first so that I could figure which class would provide him the favored class bonus. Now, with the option for either hp or skill points, it adds an extra level of complexity, but when all is said and done I think it helps PCs develop their character and can be completely ignored when or if someone is converting existing NPCs.
I think it's a small, yet effective, change and I vote that it stays and that it remain just like it is.
|
Just a small comment, but I wanted to note that for humans and half-elves, it doesn't matter what class they take as their first level. They have to pick ANY class as their favored class at first level, but they don't have to take that class then (or, really, at any point, though then it would be a silly choice). In the case of NPC multiclassers, I would just pick the class they have the most levels in. Simple! :)
|
|
I would say that when converting NPCs and trying to decide what their favored class is, you could go with one of the following:
1. If the race is human or half-elf, pick the class they have the most levels in.
2. If the race is one with two classes to choose from and they only have one of those, then that is their favored class.
3. If the race is one with two classes to choose from and they have both of those, then pick the one with the most levels.
4. If the classes are ever perfectly even, then just pick the one they seem to have the most 'synergy' with.
Maybe I am lazy, but I would just say they all took the HP because they all rolled low and not bother with it.
|
|
Maybe I am lazy, but I would just say they all took the HP because they all rolled low and not bother with it.
That's an option for NPCs. That's the cool aspect of most additions of PRPG. If you don't want to look into too much detail and just spawn an NPC quickly, you can do it a priori better than straight out of 3.5 itself.
I find the favored class rules in PRPG to be a huge improvement from 3.5. As a matter of fact, I never applied the favored classes and associated penalties in my 3.X games. I know I'm far from being the only one. It was annoying for both players (limiting choices and penalizing original character concepts) and DMs (XP calculations).
At least the change makes me want to apply the rule as it stands.
|
I find the favored class rules in PRPG to be a huge improvement from 3.5. As a matter of fact, I never applied the favored classes and associated penalties in my 3.X games. I know I'm far from being the only one. It was annoying for both players (limiting choices and penalizing original character concepts) and DMs (XP calculations).
there was this rule?
jajaja ok ok i did knew it... never used itI liked what Paizo did in the Alpha, not having the favored class doesn't affect you at all... but if you have it... well you get a bonus (+1 hp), not much, not ground breaking but it well save your life
I definitively loved the Beta Change "or +1 skill point" (my character urgently needs that +1 skill, ok from 10 hp to 9 being the cleric its not TOO painful... but from 4 skill points to 5... yeah that makes a change for me)
i think its good as it is... or would anyone else prefer "+1 hp and +1 skill point" to make even more appealing the Favored Class?
the probelm of this is that there is a chance that stereotypes came in force.
For NPCs... it depends what i need... i need an extra hard npc to confront my players, it goes to HP, i need someone more savvy and who will challenge them in other areas than combat, then skill points.
it all depends what you want to run :D
ok my DM will hit his head this weekend when he need to change that in the npcs of "Burning Offerings"
Just to clarify: has Pathfinder eliminated the XP penalty that used to exist for uneven multiclassing?
|
I find the favored class rules in PRPG to be a huge improvement from 3.5. As a matter of fact, I never applied the favored classes and associated penalties in my 3.X games. I know I'm far from being the only one. It was annoying for both players (limiting choices and penalizing original character concepts) and DMs (XP calculations).there was this rule?
jajaja ok ok i did knew it... never used itI liked what Paizo did in the Alpha, not having the favored class doesn't affect you at all... but if you have it... well you get a bonus (+1 hp), not much, not ground breaking but it well save your life
I definitively loved the Beta Change "or +1 skill point" (my character urgently needs that +1 skill, ok from 10 hp to 9 being the cleric its not TOO painful... but from 4 skill points to 5... yeah that makes a change for me)
i think its good as it is... or would anyone else prefer "+1 hp and +1 skill point" to make even more appealing the Favored Class?
the probelm of this is that there is a chance that stereotypes came in force.
For NPCs... it depends what i need... i need an extra hard npc to confront my players, it goes to HP, i need someone more savvy and who will challenge them in other areas than combat, then skill points.
it all depends what you want to run :D
ok my DM will hit his head this weekend when he need to change that in the npcs of "Burning Offerings"
I don't see a need to make it both. In fact, I prefer the choice simply because it adds more character customization- something I'm always in favor of (and one of the reasons I am holding off on 4e).
--- Magis
Though I like the choice factor, I am fairly certain that +1 skill rank is worth much more than +1 hit point. Unless you have such a low Con mod that you’re only getting one hit point per level or you already have so many skill points already that there’s nothing else you want (which excludes the vast majority of characters), I don’t see why anyone would choose hit points. Think of it this way: would a no-prereq feat that gave you +3 skill ranks, +1 per HD, and +1 for each HD you gained thereafter be balanced? Honestly, I’d rather abolish Favored Class altogether than make it such a big boon as +1 skill rank per level. With the incentive to stay in line being +1 maxed skill, playing against type becomes shooting-yourself-in-the-footery.
My group is very pleased with this choice. The ones planning on playing the meat shields are looking at the +1 HP and the ones that are playing the clerics/wizards are looking at the skill points (since they weren't raised to 4/level like we wanted).
I would hate to see the favored class idea be dropped. We like the idea that dwarves make better clerics and fighters for example.
I would hate to see the favored class idea be dropped. We like the idea that dwarves make better clerics and fighters for example.
They already do. The +2 Wisdom and +2 Constitution are a great boon for both classes, as are their other bonuses.
|
|
meat shield is meat shield, more hit points unecessary? i am sure our wizard will still go for the +1 hp, so will do the rogue and the bard, not to mention the paladin...
and i am with who said that since we didn't get clerics/fighters/sorceres/wizards to have 4 skills per level (yeah i was also looking forward to that, and still do i will go for it again whgen the classes are revised)
alsoa s someone mentioned its 1 rank per level... meaning even with the +1 skill point it doesn't go up, you need to either get a new background skill or one very needed extra skill
in our game one of the players got the narrator to add a psionic feat called "open mind" but instead of giving 5 skills only, it would give 3 skills when taken and +1 per HD, and one skill point each new level...
i myself need other feats so this +1 skill in favored class is what i really need
|
|
I don't see a need to make it both. In fact, I prefer the choice simply because it adds more character customization- something I'm always in favor of (and one of the reasons I am holding off on 4e).
--- Magis
jeje i know... that was the little munchkin i me talking :P
i am actually quite happy with the +1 hp OR +1 skill point
meat shield is meat shield, more hit points unecessary?
Not unnecessary. Just, more skill points is better than more hit points unless you're really hurting for hit points or have far too many skill points. An extra maxed skill, on the other hand, is a very large source of power. Now, you can notice that rogue sneaking up on your when before you could not. Now, you can bounce through a room without taking AoOs when before you could not. Now, you can jump across a crevasse when before you would have had to look for a bridge.
|
|
meat shield is meat shield, more hit points unecessary?Not unnecessary. Just, more skill points is better than more hit points unless you're really hurting for hit points or have far too many skill points. An extra maxed skill, on the other hand, is a very large source of power. Now, you can notice that rogue sneaking up on your when before you could not. Now, you can bounce through a room without taking AoOs when before you could not. Now, you can jump across a crevasse when before you would have had to look for a bridge.
just remember ranks = level or HD
the rogue is not getting any more ranks in his stealt with the +1 skill point, a human rogue would began with stealth 4 + dex mod + miscelaneous +1, without mattering the extra skill point due to favored class
ok it would give them another skill
this actually helps the 4 classes with 2 + int mod skills (fighters, sorceres, clerics and wizards)
i have a cleric and a bard... my cleric is definitively taking the +1 skill, and while for the bard i would love to have another skill... i just know i NEED the +1 hp i already took.
Go the 4e route: Adjudicate it based on your needs. No reason to write it down and make it permanent.
Go the 4e route: Adjudicate it based on your needs. No reason to write it down and make it permanent.
Actually, upon rereading the sidebar, it looks like you can change it every time you level up. It most definitely does NOT say the choice is permanent.
Hey, Jason, can we have a reading on this?
|
Go the 4e route: Adjudicate it based on your needs. No reason to write it down and make it permanent.Actually, upon rereading the sidebar, it looks like you can change it every time you level up. It most definitely does NOT say the choice is permanent.
Hey, Jason, can we have a reading on this?
I read it as you get a choice each time you level in your favored class. The first time you might take the extra hit point and the next time a skill point.
Unlike the modifications in 4e, I do think once you have picked it you have to keep it. i.e. you cannot take +1 HP at 1st level, +1 skill point at 2nd and change your mind at 3rd level and trade in the +1 skill point for a +1 HP instead.
Go the 4e route: Adjudicate it based on your needs. No reason to write it down and make it permanent.Actually, upon rereading the sidebar, it looks like you can change it every time you level up. It most definitely does NOT say the choice is permanent.
Hey, Jason, can we have a reading on this?
I read it as you get a choice each time you level in your favored class. The first time you might take the extra hit point and the next time a skill point.
Unlike the modifications in 4e, I do think once you have picked it you have to keep it. i.e. you cannot take +1 HP at 1st level, +1 skill point at 2nd and change your mind at 3rd level and trade in the +1 skill point for a +1 HP instead.
Oh, I agree, I just meant you could take 1 hp at one level & 1 skill point at the next, not that you could make a retroactive change.
|
Director of Brand Strategy
|
How would this work with Gestalt characters (starting from 1st level)?
Let's try it with both a Human/Half-Elf, and then one of the other Races taking one of their Preferred classes as part of the Gestalt.
I'm interested to see the effects.Thanks for your help.
Note that Gestalt characters aren't part of the first two core books and thus aren't a huge consideration for design. Sure, it helps with backwards compatability to make sure this works, but gestalt rules really stretch the limits of that to begin with, even when you're working exclusively in unaltered 3.5. In many ways, gestalt campaigns are 3.6 while Pathfinder is 3.75 (not, of course, to imply that one is better than the other, but both are variants on the 3.5 core).
Oh, I agree, I just meant you could take 1 hp at one level & 1 skill point at the next, not that you could make a retroactive change.
I asked Jason about this when he previewed this change and he confirmed that at each level you could take either the skill point or the hp, but that this decision was final.
Put me down for one who dislikes the favoured class mechanic.
It further discourages players from trying something a bit different.
Gnome Cleric? Are you mad?
The stat bonus issue is easily enough encouragement to keep fantasy stereotypes alive. The favored class additional bonus is just min maxing
"all those who have chosen to be a dwarven (or human or half elven) cleric due to the obvious benefits.... Well done you get extra benefits!"
Lets face it elves make great wizards without the bonus hit points.
Why have it at all?
(and if you are going to say to encourage certain racial class stereotypes it should not be the ones that are already encouraged. For this reason I dont mind elven rangers favored class as the race doesnt already strongly favour that class)
Put me down for one who dislikes the favoured class mechanic.
It further discourages players from trying something a bit different.
Gnome Cleric? Are you mad?
Let's be serious here, now; why would anyone ever play a gnome? Come on.
I don't think the mechanic deters from people who want to try stuff out. It does, however, add a bonus to those who follow racial traditions.
Either way, it's all the same.
Encouraging stereotypes (or "racial traditions") by this mechanic is unecessary and over the top. Those stereotypes are already encouraged by the racial abilities (elves get +2 int hmmm wonder what class I will play to be a kick butt wizard- oh they get a bunch of martial weapons cool... still thinking...wait! +1 hp per level! sold! wrap it I am taking it home!).
(further) encouraging sticking with such traditions is the same as discouraging breaking with tradition.
Or did you already agree with this point with your 'either way it's all the same' comment?
Let's be serious here, now; why would anyone ever play a gnome? Come on.
Hey, I'm currently playing a gnome! Balthazar the Shadow, a beguiler/shadowcraft mage, is adventuring in Maure Castle these days.
|
Im a very big fan of the new favored class system the skill points come in handy for low skill classes and the hp come in handy for low hp classes or high hp classes that simply roll poorly for there hd (As a side note I would get my players to wait till after rolling HD before deciding on +1 sp or +1 Hp.)
Let's be serious here, now; why would anyone ever play a gnome? Come on.Hey, I'm currently playing a gnome! Balthazar the Shadow, a beguiler/shadowcraft mage, is adventuring in Maure Castle these days.
Last time I played a gnome -- and actually, the only time I've ever played one -- was because it was a one shot and I was intentionally being the comedic relief. I had been sick all week and my voice had failed me. However, I noticed that when I talked in a deeper pitch I would sound almost exactly like the movie announcer guy (Don LaFontaine, if anyone is interested.) It was pure gold being a Gnome Warlock who announced his every action evily.
I digress; yes I agreed that stereotypes are horrible and I hate race/class restrictions, but sometimes it's not a horrible thing. We don't want everything to be as everything else, right?
Im a very big fan of the new favored class system the skill points come in handy for low skill classes and the hp come in handy for low hp classes or high hp classes that simply roll poorly for there hd (As a side note I would get my players to wait till after rolling HD before deciding on +1 sp or +1 Hp.)
fair enough why cant it be everyone gets to choose their favored class?
I know, I know I am a lone voice here.
And the +1 to HP or Skills only happens if you keep at that base class, it doesn't happens when you take a PrC, meaning that the intention of that bonus is to force a decision to continue with your base class or take a PrC.
Can we get a clarification on whether the following is legal:
Human PC starts as a level 1 Rogue, but takes Fighter as his favored class.
-- david
Papa.DRB
|
Director of Brand Strategy
|
I see. So, as time progresses, the Backward Compatibility shingle that was hung out to attract 3.5ers will be less and less in view?
This may eventually lead us to the same state as Green Ronin's True20 and Mongoose Publishing's FantasyCraft, with each company attempting to garner a following of 3.5ers -- except of course, that neither T20 nor FC suggested that Backward Compatibility was a big draw, whereas PFRPG did and seems less and less inclined to keep that promise.
Am I wrong in my analysis? I certainly hope I am...
I think you might be taking it to a bit of an extreme, but I don't think you're wrong. All I was trying to say is that running a gestalt game already requires a lot of its own alteration to the rules. If you want to play gestalt, just adapt those rules to the PRPG and if this particular rule doesn't fit well for gestalt characters, then drop it from your game. I'd be sad to see it go from my (almost exclusively non-gestalt) game and the rules as a whole because it didn't gel well with one particular variant play style.
|
|
I see. So, as time progresses, the Backward Compatibility shingle that was hung out to attract 3.5ers will be less and less in view?
This may eventually lead us to the same state as Green Ronin's True20 and Mongoose Publishing's FantasyCraft, with each company attempting to garner a following of 3.5ers -- except of course, that neither T20 nor FC suggested that Backward Compatibility was a big draw, whereas PFRPG did and seems less and less inclined to keep that promise.
Am I wrong in my analysis? I certainly hope I am...
Well, what you've got here my friend is an hypothesis, a question perhaps, but not an analysis.
One of the "prime directives" of Jason for work on PRPG is to keep the game running in terms of backwards compatibility. There are things that fans want to see fixed though, and it's an occasion to polish that good ol' ruleset we all like so much.
The Gestalt rules are not part of these rules. They are an exception, an aberration which, even though they indeed are really fun, are really stretching the rules in directions they were not really intended to go.
That's not saying that you should give up on your campaign. But rather than just give up and cry for foul, you could point out the problems you see in playtest and propose some ways in which Gestalt could work -if they don't already that is, which I'm sure they are at 99%- within the context of the PRPG rules.
We're all in the same boat, here.
In the end, the most extreme cases of treatment of the rules might, just might require some work of conversion to be on par with PRPG's rules. But if that means the vast majority of the fans get the improvements they wanted to see to 3.5 for a long time, so be it. Are you with me?
Eww, Mushy.
On point; I see no reason why a Human can't take Fighter as his Favored class when he's a rogue at level one.
Can we get a clarification on whether the following is legal:
Human PC starts as a level 1 Rogue, but takes Fighter as his favored class.
-- david
Papa.DRB
I think it is technically legal, but on this I urge players to consider the roleplaying reasoning behind gaining a skill point or hp with the acquisition of each favored class level (at least in my opinion).
My take on this is the idea that since the favored class is the class in which they initially trained it is naturally easier for them to gain more training in that class, therefore they have extra time to train on skills or physical enhancement, respectively.
With this reasoning, the favored class should be (again, imo) the class the character takes at first level.
Eww, Mushy.
On point; I see no reason why a Human can't take Fighter as his Favored class when he's a rogue at level one.
I agree. It could represent a number of situations, i.e. a fighter wants one day to be a paladin, or a rogue who has a true calling embracing her sorcerer heritage, or something.
It may not be the most efficient for the character build, but how much that matters depends on the player.
Chobbly
Eww, Mushy.
On point; I see no reason why a Human can't take Fighter as his Favored class when he's a rogue at level one.
I agree. It could represent a number of situations, i.e. a fighter wants one day to be a paladin, or a rogue who has a true calling embracing her sorcerer heritage, or something.
It may not be the most efficient for the character build, but how much that matters depends on the player.
Chobbly
This is an excellent point, but if he knew then his life's calling why not select at first level? It is possible that he had no choice (perhaps there was a war and he was conscripted to serve and that is how he became a figher, but he always saw a different path for himself, though it took time to be able to act upon it).
I have a possible solution. What if a player can change his favored class once after first level?
In the end I think this is going to have to be a decision between the GMs and players.
My rule of thumb is that if it positively advances the story and the roleplaying it is usually a good idea.
Hi all!
In my opinion the Favored Class rule in the Beta is ok but I would leave it as an option.
Which class is favored by which race depends on the campaign you mean to play. It is strictly related to the flavor of the fantasy world your characters live in. The favored classes reported in the Beta can be left as a suggestion for a campaign set in Golarion but it should be clear that if my campaign is set in a completely different world I should possibly change the race-favored class association.
Ok, you will say: "It's obvious" but I would make it clear in a sidebar.
Bye!
P.S. Sorry for my broken English...
I think it is technically legal, but on this I urge players to consider the roleplaying reasoning behind gaining a skill point or hp with the acquisition of each favored class level (at least in my opinion).Can we get a clarification on whether the following is legal:
Human PC starts as a level 1 Rogue, but takes Fighter as his favored class.
-- david
Papa.DRB
My guys will try and break everything, so I like to have things stated as clearly as possible. My personal preference is that 1st level class for humans should be considered their favored class, but it doesn't *state* that anywhere, and to head off the inevitable arguments, I'd like to have it stated...
-- david
Papa.DRB
|
|
it reads that humans chose which is their favored class, so they usually GET the bonus...
IF for some reason human players want to forsake thebenefits of favored class... let them
is not like you got 8 x4 skills for being rogue 1st level and then change to fighter just to have the ebenfit of the rogue skills... thanks paizo for that...
if like in 3.5 the rule was able to be abused (you take the rogue or bard class only and only for the skill poits... well now its only 8 + int mod) ok i would take that only the 1st level class would be considered as favored class, but since such abouse now is impausible... why not
if an elf can be a fighter and then take wizard and still wizard is his favored class... if the human wants to do the same... its the power of the player to do so
why take options away from him (personally i would not do it :P, err i mean the taking the 2nd class as favored class instead of the 1st one)
is not like you got 8 x4 skills for being rogue 1st level and then change to fighter just to have the ebenfit of the rogue skills... thanks paizo for that...
if like in 3.5 the rule was able to be abused (you take the rogue or bard class only and only for the skill poits... well now its only 8 + int mod) ok i would take that only the 1st level class would be considered as favored class, but since such abouse now is impausible... why not
Maybe I'm missing something but as far as I understand the skill points rules have been streamlined but not substantially changed. I mean that in 3.5 a 1st level rouge could spend all his (8+INT mod)x4 skill points to maximize 8+INT mod class skills (acquiring 4 ranks). With PF Beta he can still maximize 8+INT mod skills spending 1 point in each skill thus obtaining 4 ranks in each skill. The same holds for cross class skills.