Are there any comic book characters or mythic figures that have no superpowers that fight the good fight?
I'm thinking of characters like Xander: no powers, no special privilege or extraordinary skills or training, not a lover or family member, must fight in combat with the hero(ine) or alone. That excludes characters like Aunt May (relative, doesn't fight), Alfred the Butler (doesn't fight), Batman (special privilege, training, skills), Arthur from the Tick (powered by suit), Mary Jane Watson (lover), Enkidu (special martial skill), and Nick Fury (excluded due to government privileges).
Is Xander without precedent or am I missing someone?
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Ted Kord's Blue Beetle. he has no powers at all, yet still fights, due to the powers of Smarts! seriously. he's just fairly good at strategy. it's not even superhero level intelligence. his death was extremely sad, and possibly the best non-gratuitous death in comics that i know of. and considering that multiple other heores have wonddered why he's in the justice league, and never questioned batman, i would say that even though he's rich he doens't have special priveleges like batman or fury.
also, i'm not sure if John Constantine would count. he has some magic, but not enough to count as a threat to the magic world. and considering his gimmick is usually conning things into going his way, i'd count him as an average dude who fights. also, his definition of the "good fight" is somewhat differant to other people, since he does fight both demons and angels...still a great story.
The spirit should also count on your list. despite the mystic name, he's just an atheletic detective in a domino mask.
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Are there any comic book characters or mythic figures that have no superpowers that fight the good fight?
I'm thinking of characters like Xander: no powers, no special privilege or extraordinary skills or training, not a lover or family member, must fight in combat with the hero(ine) or alone. That excludes characters like Aunt May (relative, doesn't fight), Alfred the Butler (doesn't fight), Batman (special privilege, training, skills), Arthur from the Tick (powered by suit), Mary Jane Watson (lover), Enkidu (special martial skill), and Nick Fury (excluded due to government privileges).
Is Xander without precedent or am I missing someone?
Wasn't Xander romantically involved with Anyanka?
And the guy knows klingon! c'mon, the dude's no average joe. (plus, the whole knowing a lot about the military due to the episode halloween? if that counts then so does ted kord's strategy thing.)
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And the guy knows klingon! c'mon, the dude's no average joe. (plus, the whole knowing a lot about the military due to the episode halloween? if that counts then so does ted kord's strategy thing.)Are there any comic book characters or mythic figures that have no superpowers that fight the good fight?
I'm thinking of characters like Xander: no powers, no special privilege or extraordinary skills or training, not a lover or family member, must fight in combat with the hero(ine) or alone. That excludes characters like Aunt May (relative, doesn't fight), Alfred the Butler (doesn't fight), Batman (special privilege, training, skills), Arthur from the Tick (powered by suit), Mary Jane Watson (lover), Enkidu (special martial skill), and Nick Fury (excluded due to government privileges).
Is Xander without precedent or am I missing someone?
Wasn't Xander romantically involved with Anyanka?
:D
I think that what the OP may be looking for however, trying to get back on track, is an 'everyman' heroic figure, or an 'average joe' equivalent as you put it in your language.
Richard Mayhew from Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere is an ordinary business executive thrust suddenly into the very dark 'London Below', and even though it [Neverwhere] was originally a (UK) television mini-series (and then novel) in the 1990's, I feel entitled to mention it since a couple of years ago a comic book form was published, which was mostly true to the original.
ya, i got that. i was trying to find examples, but no matter who i think of, wikipedia decides they have some kind of power, ranging from genius level intellect to fast healing. I think Jamie from MEGAS XLR counts, but he came after Xander.
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Are there any comic book characters or mythic figures that have no superpowers that fight the good fight?
John McClaen from Die Hard. He was just a cop stuck in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Wildcat from the original Justice Society. He was a boxer who donned a mask to fight crime.
Quite a few of the Golden Age heroes were just ordinary guys wearing a mask. They may have been trained at a gym or something, but they are still ordinary joes.
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I was thinking that there might be some among the Greek heroes, but looking them up, they all seem to be the sons of gods and / or kings of nations (or have special powers, such as Orpheus' music or Achilles' invulnerability). Not a whole lot of 'everyman' going on in Classical mythology.
I would posit Bilbo or Frodo as possible 'everyman' characters. Both were dragged out of completely normal-schmoe lives into worlds occupied by more mythic figures like Gandalf, Legolas and Aragorn, all of whom were of 'priveledged birth' or had a special nature that placed them above ordinary men (or hobbits).
Far too many fantastic characters, IMO, seem to be foundling children or orphans who end up with some special destiny (see Pug / Milamber, Harry Potter, Eragon, Luke Skywalker, Herakles, Achilles, etc.) and / or special powers as a result of their birth, and not as a result of something that they've actually earned on their own merits. Indeed, the people who go out and actively acquire and develop their skills and / or powers are more commonly the villains of the tale, being portrayed as mad, power-seeking megalomaniacs, while those 'born lucky' end up being the heroes for 'putting them in their place!'
"Oh there you go again, Dennis. It's always about class with you!"
Ahem.
Xander is my favorite character in the series, although pre-Wicca Willow is right up there as well, back when she was really, really smart, and a whiz with computers and didn't have any super-powers. For me, the whole show was about how the Slayer was special (and Angel was supposed to be an exception among exceptions, until Drusilla became the only member of his line not to end up with a soul, one way or another...), and having her various allies, such as Willow, get super-powers also, I felt, cheapened her story, *and* cheapened Willow's bravery in the years when she was a huge contributor to the show and Buffy's success, *without* the power to snap her fingers and set people on fire.
Captain America, pre-Ultimate-ization, when he became able to fight the Hulk to a standstill, was *close* to this ideal, as was Batman (pre 'Batgod,' able to outwit people smarter than he by a factor of 1000 and sneak away from people who can hear bees fart in China and see a person's cells dividing). Both were the 'normal guys,' despite their special gear and training, making do in a world of crazy awesome people who can move planets and topple buildings and smite Galactus verily so that he doth feel it. Karate Kid, of the Legion of Super-Heroes, might fit this trope as well, of people who might seem super by real-world standards, but end up looking 'everymanesque' when teamed up with people who can blot out stars, explode in an anti-matter reaction or reshape continents with beams from their eyes.
But if we deal out people with gadgets and training, then folk like Snapper Carr or Wyatt Wingfoot might be the closest that comic books get to the 'normal guy in a super world.' At least in the sense of 'normal folk who still participate' and not like those people who used to work at Xavier's mansion (back when Xavier's dream of mutants and humans living in the same zip code was paid more than lip service. Nowadays, a human can't get within a mile of a mutant unless he's piloting a Sentinel.), who where totally 'fray-adjacent.'
*Snapper Carr has developed the super-power of teleportation, but he was introduced in 1960 as a powerless dude, and didn't get powers until 1988. So he spend 28 years as a schmoe, anyway.
**And now I'm thinking that Wyatt Wingfoot might not count because he's supposed to be an expert hunter, tracker, marksman, animal trainer and hand to hand combatant. Yeesh. Hardly a normal schmoe, more like the Native American answer to James Bond...
Love Blue Beetle, but gotta disagree. He was a genius inventor who created weapons and tools to aid him. For a time he also was wealthy from his company, Kord Industries.
How about some of the Watchmen? The original Night Owl was a tough cop and the Comedian's only power was his amoral outlook.
Does Arthur Dent count as a hero?
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Love Blue Beetle, but gotta disagree. He was a genius inventor who created weapons and tools to aid him. For a time he also was wealthy from his company, Kord Industries.
How about some of the Watchmen? The original Night Owl was a tough cop and the Comedian's only power was his amoral outlook.
Does Arthur Dent count as a hero?
hmm...you may have a point. and other then Doctor Manhatten, Ozymandius and the second night owl (from your definition above, he also invents things), couldn't all the heroes fit into this description? wasn't one of the points to the story that there were no superheroes (other then D.M.), and the costumed avengers were just people?
And I would most definately count Arthur Dent as a hero. though he prolly only fits this description in the first couple of books. IIRC, he gradually bgecomes just as zany as the rest of the cast, especially later on when he learns how to fly.
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ya, i got that. i was trying to find examples, but no matter who i think of, wikipedia decides they have some kind of power, ranging from genius level intellect to fast healing. I think Jamie from MEGAS XLR counts, but he came after Xander.Almost everyone significant in greek or Roman mythology who is a 'hero' (or heroine) seems to be the son (or daughter) of one of their deities by a mortal, or at least has significant patronage. Odysseus comes close to being an 'ordinary' man, but he's definitely aristocracy/priviliged background, and even though he's more than able to usually get by without her to give him ideas, has Athena's patronage.
Odysseus has a swineherd (Eumaeus), though, who helps Odysseus to regain his kingdom, once Odysseus (finally) gets back home from the wars. Eumaeus might be considered the Odyssey's 'Xander Harris' to Odysseus' 'Buffy'.
interesting thought about Eumaeus. i may be tempted to agree. I pretty much ditched mythology in general, since for some reaon we can't seem to keep good stories without giving the characters something special.
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Interesting thought about Wildcat, however.... Could you clarify if he was an amateur boxer or pro, as I have next to no knowledge at all of the Justice Society, and certainly none regarding the Golden Age period.
As near as I know he was an amateur boxer. He could have gone pro but that's never clear since he was always just described as "a heavyweight champion." As such he could have been either. He was the one who taught Batman how to box when Bruce was a teenager, as well as Catwoman and Black Canary at various points in his career. However, I still think he fits you classification because he was unemployed and on the run at the time he started his career. Later they decided to write in a mystic "nine lives" power, but he did not have it when his character started out.
Wasn't Xander romantically involved with Anyanka?
I'll restate: not romantically involved with the primary hero of the tale, if there is one.
(plus, the whole knowing a lot about the military due to the episode halloween? if that counts then so does ted kord's strategy thing.)
Yeah, I'm not sure how heavily to weigh that one. He uses that knowledge twice: in Halloween and in Passion. Maybe he uses it one more time that I can't remember. By season four, he's befuddled by Initiative technology and resisting the very thought of enlisting in the military.
It's a caveat, to be sure, but I feel like it's an exception that proves the rule with Xander.
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Howzabout Ash Williams from Army of Darkness? Norman McCay from "Kingdom Come"?
It would be unrealistic, I think, for a continuing character to do battle against some serious threat, issue after issue, and not grow into the job. It wouldn't be interesting, I think, for a character to face frightening situations and remain a coward.
Howzabout Ash Williams from Army of Darkness? Norman McCay from "Kingdom Come"?
It would be unrealistic, I think, for a continuing character to do battle against some serious threat, issue after issue, and not grow into the job. It wouldn't be interesting, I think, for a character to face frightening situations and remain a coward.
Xander actually does get better: he does kill vampires if given the advantages of help and surprise, and keeps them occupied when he can't kill them (c.f. his fight against two in the raid on the library in Becoming) and he offs that assassin from the Order of Tarraka with Cordy.
He's most helpful in the investigative and morale-boosting parts, though. He's sort of the bard of the group, really.
Ash, however, is a good example.
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Howzabout Ash Williams from Army of Darkness? Norman McCay from "Kingdom Come"?
It would be unrealistic, I think, for a continuing character to do battle against some serious threat, issue after issue, and not grow into the job. It wouldn't be interesting, I think, for a character to face frightening situations and remain a coward.
I thought about Norman, but then I realized that he doesn't actually do anything to fight the bad guy. he fits the description of an average dude, but then he's basically used as a host by the spectre, most definately not a average dude. i can't even really remember what he does in the end. i think he "chooses" either superman or captain marvel, and then he talks down superman from killing a bunch of people. neither of which are very action-y things, which is what i thought the point of the question was.
though I do like Ash. he fits all the points rather well. no training, no abilities, thrust into an evil plot and forced to make some hard decisions fast.
I would posit Bilbo or Frodo as possible 'everyman' characters. Both were dragged out of completely normal-schmoe lives into worlds occupied by more mythic figures like Gandalf, Legolas and Aragorn, all of whom were of 'priveledged birth' or had a special nature that placed them above ordinary men (or hobbits).
I'll see your Frodo and raise you a Samwise. Frodo, though a hobbit, is not quite the "everyman." He, and his uncle, are from a more well-to-do hobbit family. They are the privileged, as hobbits go. Sam, on the other hand, is a servant. He's also the true hero of the tale, as far as I'm concerned; without him, the quest would have failed.
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Howzabout Ash Williams from Army of Darkness? Norman McCay from "Kingdom Come"?
It would be unrealistic, I think, for a continuing character to do battle against some serious threat, issue after issue, and not grow into the job. It wouldn't be interesting, I think, for a character to face frightening situations and remain a coward.
Tell that to Terry Pratchett's Rincewind! He and Vimes are probably two good examples of the everyman that the OP is referring to.
Jack Burton!
Disqualified. Magic potion.
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Ash and Jack Burton are both good examples of what a guy like Xander might have grown up to become if he hadn't crossed paths with Buffy. Both are slightly less than competent Joe Ordinary guys who almost rise to the challenge when they are faced with it.
If you listen to the director's commentary on Big trouble In Little China, Kurt Russel makes it fairly explicit that it's Wang Chi who is the actual protagonist/hero of the story, and that Jack is actually Wang's sidekick. And even with the aid of a potion, he still managed to:
* knock himself out for the first third of the end fight
* get himself pinned under a guard for the second third of the end fight
* defeat the villain due to sheer dumb luck
I mean, Wang Chi is the only one who actually uses his fighting skills to kill one of the Three Storms.
I could definitely see Xander in his thirties, driving a big rig, talking into his CB "Yeah, you listen to the old Xand-man, he use to ride with the Big Buff and fight the Big Bad, he knows the score, and don't you forget it. Why, I always say 'Xander, blah blah blah..."
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I've long maintained that Xander (along with Sam in LotR, Ron in HP, etc) are in key regards the most important characters in their respective stories.
They choose to do the right thing out of loyalty to their friends and a sense of natural justice, not because of birth/destiny (Buffy/Gyles, Frodo, Harry) and/or exceptional ability (Willow/Angel, all non-hobbits, Hermione).
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I thought about Norman, but then I realized that he doesn't actually do anything to fight the bad guy. ... I think he "chooses" either superman or captain marvel, and then he talks down superman from killing a bunch of people. neither of which are very action-y things, which is what i thought the point of the question was.
"Kingdom Come" really doesn't have a villain. All the important conflict takes place inside people. It's all about finding your moral compass. Norman McCay grows from a frightened and bewildered observer, into the hero of the story. He doesn't just talk Superman out of killing people. He guides Clark into re-establishing his own sense of right and wrong. (He doesn't punch anybody, because punching people is never the right answer to any of the solutions in the story. It only adds to the tension, the bloodshed, the chaos.)
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I've long maintained that Xander (along with Sam in LotR, Ron in HP, etc) are in key regards the most important characters in their respective stories.
They choose to do the right thing out of loyalty to their friends and a sense of natural justice, not because of birth/destiny (Buffy/Gyles, Frodo, Harry) and/or exceptional ability (Willow/Angel, all non-hobbits, Hermione).
Agreed. And I also think it's important in a sci-fi/fantasy genre piece to have at least one character that serves to reinforce how *special* the fantastic (Slayers, wizards, elves, vampires, etc.) are. Without the 'mere mortals,' the story turns into a super-hero tale, which is fine and I like those too, but isn't really what most fantasy / sci-fi authors with a central character set out to present.
As the secondary characters in a book or show increasingly *also* become special, it, IMO, takes away from the special nature of the main character, and, particularly in a show like Buffy, where the audience is beaten over the head by Buffy's depression about being 'the only one,' it makes the protagonist look increasingly ludicrous when it seems like every other person in her immediate vicinity is *also* a super-being.
"Oh, here I am, all alone, nobody could possibly understand what I'm going through because of how unique and special I am, just like Willow, and Anya, and Angel, and Spike, and Faith..."
I love a good 'superfriends' tale where everyone has powers, but when the focus of the tale is on one character who is 'special' (like Luke Skywalker), I feel that it detracts from the whole 'special' riff if, say, Han Solo suddenly also develops kewl powerz. Han remaining more of an everyman (granted, an 'everyman' who has a spaceship!) helps to highlight the increasing sense of isolation Luke is feeling in the later movies, particularly in scenes in Return of the Jedi where Luke is saying something like, 'I'm endangering the mission' and Han is just not getting it.
If half the people in the novel turn out to be the Kwisatz Haderach, what's the big deal? If everyone on the ship is a Vulcan, or an Android, or a reformed Borg, or the one Klingon raised by humans, it takes some of the magic out. If everyone is a mysterious Changeling Founder, or a vampire-with-a-soul, or 'the only Wizard in the phone book,' the premise of some of these popular media kind of all apart, and so Xander's and Samwise's are essential, IMO.
...but he has the power of Heart!
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If half the people in the novel turn out to be the Kwisatz Haderach, what's the big deal? If everyone on the ship is a Vulcan, or an Android, or a reformed Borg, or the one Klingon raised by humans, it takes some of the magic out.
I'd love to see the story of a human raised by Klingons serving in the Klingon Imperial Service. That could be a very interesting story indeed.
Yes, but can he help form Captain Planet?
By the hells, I hope not. I'm admittedly liberal and try to be enviromentally aware, but the blatant, utterly slanted campaigning in that cartoon makes me sick to my stomach. Worst. Hero. Ever.
Yes, but can he help form Captain Planet?By the hells, I hope not. I'm admittedly liberal and try to be enviromentally aware, but the blatant, utterly slanted campaigning in that cartoon makes me sick to my stomach. Worst. Hero. Ever.
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Really?Yes, but can he help form Captain Planet?By the hells, I hope not. I'm admittedly liberal and try to be enviromentally aware, but the blatant, utterly slanted campaigning in that cartoon makes me sick to my stomach. Worst. Hero. Ever.
Wow...that is awesome. I am chalking that right up there with Captain Planet on my list of favorite super-dudes. Just...wow.
(incidently, Captain planet is a show you're not supposed to take seriously...except the messages at the end about recycling. those are important. instead you're supposed to be laughing at all the campiness of it. the blatent racism, sexism and over-the-top-ness of it all. well, that and the fact that he's a superhero who fights garbage, and he's weak against...garbage! that's like superman declaring war on kryptonite. doesn't work. he's fighting a losing battle...maybe that's the hidden messagge of the show. we can't win...hmmm...)
Really?Yes, but can he help form Captain Planet?By the hells, I hope not. I'm admittedly liberal and try to be enviromentally aware, but the blatant, utterly slanted campaigning in that cartoon makes me sick to my stomach. Worst. Hero. Ever.
Well, that would be the worst hero, but once I leave this thread my mind will block out the memory once again to save my already fragile grip on sanity and Captain Planet will regain the title.
Oh, and thanks for the wiki link and not giving me an actual video clip or something...that would have done me in.
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Flash Gordon-football player
He's a track star in the new series.
Buck Rogers-airforce pilot
the Question-some kung fu
Rorschach-(most of the Watchmen didn't have any powers)psycho
Bishop (his only mutant power was to shoot a gun)
He could also absorb and redirect projected energy. I loved Bishop. I still play him anytime I sit down for a game of the Marvel Superheroes RPG.
The Heckler-frycook
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Flash Gordon-football playerHe's a track star in the new series.
The original strip in the 30's he was described as a collage athlete, no specifics
Buck Rogers-airforce pilot
the Question-some kung fu
Rorschach-(most of the Watchmen didn't have any powers)psycho
Bishop (his only mutant power was to shoot a gun)
He could also absorb and redirect projected energy. I loved Bishop. I still play him anytime I sit down for a game of the Marvel Superheroes RPG.
Didn't know, I only read a few X-Men comics with him in it and he was always using a gun.
The Heckler-frycook
I'll restate: not romantically involved with the primary hero of the tale, if there is one.
Wasn't Xander romantically involved with Anyanka?
Well, he did have that crush for Buffy quite a while and that was important factor in his early motivation.
Of some of the characters mentioned here, I would leave out folks with no special powers who nevertheless are the big folks of their stories, so while Spirit and Batman don't have superpowers they are still definitely not "normal folks" or sidekicks.
Sam Gamgee and Gabrielle from Xena are two to mention (and unsurprisingly both have been discussed in romantic connection with their main heroes...). And Batgirl, while being heroine of her own books will incomparably be compared to Batman so she is arguable precedent.
