Negative levels

[WalkerInShadows]

As I was looking over enervation and energy drain a little while ago, I had an idea. Energy drain is kind of cool, but negative levels are stupid - even with them being simplified in 3.5, it's still more stuff to keep track of, AND you lose XP if they become "permanent".

So, I thought, why not just make it hit point drain? The number of hit points drained depends on your HD type: 1 (1d4), 2 (1d6), 3 (1d8), 4 (1d10), or 5 (1d12). In the case of multiclass PCs, negative levels are always taken from the highest class first; if that class is drained to 0 levels, then it starts on the next highest, etc. If two or more classes are equal, then it goes with the highest HD. 24 hours after losing the HD/hit points, you make a second Fort save as normal or lose them permanently. If the creature's effective HD total is reduced to 0, or its hp total to 0 (or negative Con score for PCs), it dies.

Lost hit points can be recovered at the rate of 1 HD's worth per day of rest; a lesser restoration will restore 1d4 HD, restoration 1d6+1, and greater 1d8+2 (the latter two will restore permanently lost hp).

In any case, there are NO other penalties applied. Since the spell is not actually draining HD/levels, there is no need for it.

[Gabriel Albasombria]

In that way, for a sorcerer or mage its better to cast magic missile. You take a 3 in the dice, if im a fighter i'd lost only 12 hit points with a level 4 spell.

WalkerInShadows wrote:

As I was looking over enervation and energy drain a little while ago, I had an idea. Energy drain is kind of cool, but negative levels are stupid - even with them being simplified in 3.5, it's still more stuff to keep track of, AND you lose XP if they become "permanent".

So, I thought, why not just make it hit point drain? The number of hit points drained depends on your HD type: 1 (1d4), 2 (1d6), 3 (1d8), 4 (1d10), or 5 (1d12). In the case of multiclass PCs, negative levels are always taken from the highest class first; if that class is drained to 0 levels, then it starts on the next highest, etc. If two or more classes are equal, then it goes with the highest HD. 24 hours after losing the HD/hit points, you make a second Fort save as normal or lose them permanently. If the creature's effective HD total is reduced to 0, or its hp total to 0 (or negative Con score for PCs), it dies.

Lost hit points can be recovered at the rate of 1 HD's worth per day of rest; a lesser restoration will restore 1d4 HD, restoration 1d6+1, and greater 1d8+2 (the latter two will restore permanently lost hp).

In any case, there are NO other penalties applied. Since the spell is not actually draining HD/levels, there is no need for it.

[Snoring Rock]

I dont like level drain either. Too much to keep track of. I do like negative XP however. Here is my idea. You take the number CR of the creature doing the draining and look a the chart to see how many XP it takes to get that level. Divide that by the # of level the creature can drain, divided again by how many points it takes to get to that level equal to the CR. That gives you the amount of negative XP damage the creature can deal per hit. If a character takes the damage, their XP go down by that amount. However, no negative levels result. No loss of spells, feats, skills, etc. The character, in order to continue progressing will just be stuck at the current level until they have earned enough XP to start going forward again. They just get stuck for a while as a result of the draining creature. Reaching "0" XP....is death.

[neceros]

Snoring Rock wrote:

I dont like level drain either. Too much to keep track of. I do like negative XP however. Here is my idea. You take the number CR of the creature doing the draining and look a the chart to see how many XP it takes to get that level. Divide that by the # of level the creature can drain, divided again by how many points it takes to get to that level equal to the CR. That gives you the amount of negative XP damage the creature can deal per hit. If a character takes the damage, their XP go down by that amount. However, no negative levels result. No loss of spells, feats, skills, etc. The character, in order to continue progressing will just be stuck at the current level until they have earned enough XP to start going forward again. They just get stuck for a while as a result of the draining creature. Reaching "0" XP....is death.

I'm going to come right up and say this is a horrible, horrible idea. Experience is the most fabricated terminology in Dungeons and Dragons to represent a Hero's status of power. It's probably the most abstract idea in the game, but it's also one of the most important.

Being able to directly affect that number will break the entire fabric of the game. I've come from too many games where you strive to accomplish goals and gain exp just to have one bad slip up or someone become numb in the head at the wrong time and lose hours of play-time. It's almost worse than dying, in my opinion.

Give me a -1 to all rolls for a day instead of forcing me to unremember fights that happened a few hours ago.

[Pax Veritas]

How is Pathfinder handling negative levels?

[WalkerInShadows]

Quote:

In that way, for a sorcerer or mage its better to cast magic missile. You take a 3 in the dice, if im a fighter i'd lost only 12 hit points with a level 4 spell.

True. I forgot to mention the caster gains those hit points as healing, but it's still worse than vampiric touch. =(

You could just make it Con drain, and a secondary effect like temporary fatigue... this follows the idea of "draining the life force". If the second save fails, the Con drain becomes permanent like normal.

Quote:

I dont like level drain either. Too much to keep track of. I do like negative XP however. Here is my idea.

I'd have to agree with Neceros on this one. Not only is draining XP a bad idea (because XP is NOT life force), but stopping play to divide numbers by some arcane formula is a really bad idea. Division is difficult (it requires a calculator, most times). D20 is all about simple math - addition and subtraction.

[Dan Davis]

Here's what I do. If an attack deals negative levels, make the saving throw at the listed DC immediately. A successful save negates the negative level. If you fail, the negative level persists until you have rested for 8 hours. Every 8 hours of rest removes one negative level.

[Snoring Rock]

neceros wrote:

Snoring Rock wrote:

I dont like level drain either. Too much to keep track of. I do like negative XP however. Here is my idea. You take the number CR of the creature doing the draining and look a the chart to see how many XP it takes to get that level. Divide that by the # of level the creature can drain, divided again by how many points it takes to get to that level equal to the CR. That gives you the amount of negative XP damage the creature can deal per hit. If a character takes the damage, their XP go down by that amount. However, no negative levels result. No loss of spells, feats, skills, etc. The character, in order to continue progressing will just be stuck at the current level until they have earned enough XP to start going forward again. They just get stuck for a while as a result of the draining creature. Reaching "0" XP....is death.

I'm going to come right up and say this is a horrible, horrible idea. Experience is the most fabricated terminology in Dungeons and Dragons to represent a Hero's status of power. It's probably the most abstract idea in the game, but it's also one of the most important.

Being able to directly affect that number will break the entire fabric of the game. I've come from too many games where you strive to accomplish goals and gain exp just to have one bad slip up or someone become numb in the head at the wrong time and lose hours of play-time. It's almost worse than dying, in my opinion.

Give me a -1 to all rolls for a day instead of forcing me to unremember fights that happened a few hours ago.

Geeeee....a horrible, horrible idea? Come on throw me bone here. Ok, it is not a great idea and yes this is abstract. But how do you deal with it? A -1 on rolls for a day? Are you kidding? Some crazed incoporeal undead just sucked the life litteraly out of you. Again, I cant stand leveling down. Bt how best can you deal with the effects of life-draining energy? I thought slowing progession for a while would be the right thing. How else do you slow progression? Is ther a better idea? I am all ears for anything easy and fairly realistic...in its affects.

[Shadowcat7]

I like the negative level mechanic, i.e. having a -1 penalty to everything. I don't like having to reverse engineer a character who has failed the save against making it permanent, though.

All I do is keep the -1 penalty as normal for a negative level (and the few other things that go along with it)...then keep it if they fail the save 24 hours later. They are stuck with the negative level (-1 penalty) until the character gains another level. They don't lose XP, don't lose feats or skills, etc. They still gain XP as normal. When they gain another level then the negative level goes away.

So far it's worked out just fine for us doing it this way. There is still a penalty, but it's not some huge deal, and the character (and the player) is not losing out on all the hard work they put in during previous games.

[neceros]

Snoring Rock wrote:

Geeeee....a horrible, horrible idea? Come on throw me bone here. Ok, it is not a great idea and yes this is abstract. But how do you deal with it? A -1 on rolls for a day? Are you kidding? Some crazed incoporeal undead just sucked the life litteraly out of you. Again, I cant stand leveling down. Bt how best can you deal with the effects of life-draining energy? I thought slowing progession for a while would be the...

I don't mean to sound harsh.

Giving your players a -1 to all their rolls will slow down progression. They will not be as viable in their current condition to accomplish the tasks they might normally be able to do. Even though it's just a -1, it's noticeable.

We all use the same numbers. Crazed Undead or Demon Lord, it doesn't matter: they can only affect your character in ways described by the rules. Nothing short of a deity should be able to drain your experience. Even then, I don't think deities should be able to.

It all boils down to what is fun. If it's not fun, don't do it.

[WalkerInShadows]

Quote:

Ok, it is not a great idea and yes this is abstract. But how do you deal with it? A -1 on rolls for a day? Are you kidding? Some crazed incoporeal undead just sucked the life litteraly out of you. Again, I cant stand leveling down. Bt how best can you deal with the effects of life-draining energy?

XP represent learned experiences - effectively, memories and training. It has little to do with "life force".

The two main problems with energy drain as it is now: it's not accurately modeled (the -1 penalty, -5 hit points is goofy and penalizes PCs with smaller HD); and the second save to remove the negative levels creates more bookkeeping.

I would love to come up with a way to accurately model energy drain. Draining Con points is, perhaps, the closest; my hit point idea kind of fell on its face. Although, gaining all the hit points you drain is a nice benefit. You could increase the number of points drained by 1 (2 for 1d4, 3 for 1d6, etc.); thus, an enervation would drain 5-20 hp from a fighter. You could also have someone who failed his save be slowed for a couple rounds from the draining. Course, this would make some undead extremely dangerous, if they hit and drain every round.

You could even up the number of "levels" drained with enervation via the hit point rule, to make it more powerful; maybe 1d4+1/level (up to +15), and energy drain would be 2d4+1/level (to +25). That would make them nasty spells (and much better than now, IMO), but not necessarily insta-kill.

If you go the Con drain route, you'd have to change the wraith's special attack (they drain 1d4 Con/hit), but it could otherwise be a workable solution too. Then, you simply rule that some spells/creatures deal Con damage (enervation or wraiths, e.g.; can be regained through rest) and some deal Con drain (energy drain, specters and vampires; can only be regained via spells). No waiting 24 hours, no second save - it's checked once and done with.

Vampiric touch needs to be nerfed, though, whatever you do with energy drain - draining 10d6 hp and gaining them as temp hp (even for a touch attack) is a bit much, IMO. I'd drop it to 1d4/level. While enervation would still drain less, it's a ray vs. a touch attack.

Quote:

All I do is keep the -1 penalty as normal for a negative level (and the few other things that go along with it)...then keep it if they fail the save 24 hours later. They are stuck with the negative level (-1 penalty) until the character gains another level. They don't lose XP, don't lose feats or skills, etc. They still gain XP as normal. When they gain another level then the negative level goes away.

Isn't that how PF does it? I know I've seen that rule somewhere.

[Snoring Rock]

Ok, this sounds good. I like these ideas. I think -1 might be kinda week however. But over all, it is still scary. So what happens if an energy level draining nasty hits you say 4 times in a battle? What then?....-4?

[WalkerInShadows]

Quote:

Ok, this sounds good. I like these ideas. I think -1 might be kinda week however. But over all, it is still scary. So what happens if an energy level draining nasty hits you say 4 times in a battle? What then?....-4?

-1 what? He was talking about the existing rule, where if you lose a level (or "gain a negative level") you suffer a -1 penalty to attack rolls, skill checks, etc. So yeah, under that rule, they'd stack.

[Snoring Rock]

Got it, thanks. I know I am a little slow sometimes. I finished ready the entire book. I have a tendancy to skip around and then was cruising the boards and well.....here I am. Thanks for the education.

[Katowice]

I've hated energy / level drain since OD&D.

This is from the Succubus entry in the True20 Bestiary (I've tweaked it a little for d20, since True20 doesn't use stats just the stat bonuses -5 through +5 and beyond):

Kiss of Death: A succubus drains life from a mortal it lures into some act of passion, or by simply planting a kiss on the victim. If the target is not willing to be kissed, the succubus must start a grapple. The succubus’ kiss or embrace drains 2 points of Constitution and 2 points of Wisdom from the victim. The kiss also has the effect of a use of the Suggestion [spell?], asking the victim to accept another kiss from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 21 Will save to negate the effect of the Suggestion. The save DC is Charisma-based.

In the same book, energy draining undead have a power called Drain Vitality, which basically is a fatiguing effect.

Anyhow, just two ideas.

[WalkerInShadows]

Con drain could work; I think I mentioned that wraiths already drain Con (so you might have to account for them). The main problem with ability drain in general, though, is the "cascade effect" draining ability scores has - if you drain Con, for instance, you have to adjust Fort saves, hit points, Con-based skills, etc.

I'd prefer to keep ability drain to long-term (preferably permanent) effects - that way it's easier to keep track of the changes. Stuff like bestow curse, which lasts for 1 day/level, or feeblemind (permanent) are all right. I suggested draining hit points because it's easy to keep track of - it's one number.