I was thinking about playing a thief pretending to be a monk. It seems to me that the thief would kick the monks butt (which is wrong).
I would take two weapon fighting as my feat (and improved initiative if I was human) and use a quarter staff. I am now doing the same damage at the same minuses but have the advantage that I can use the staff as a two handed weapon for one attack for extra damage. Also I can attack oozes and other things without worrying about touching them.
Instead of being able to use my wisdom to improve my AC I would just wear light armour under my robes giving me a better touch AC.
I would take as much bluff as I could so that I could feint in combat for extra damage "It is an ancient manouver taught in our temple called 'two soggy plums' really".
I know that in a bare knuckle fight the monk might thrash me but I would be a mug to do that when I could use a weapon instead. I know that monks get cool abilities later on but I would get rogue tricks. I know monks have great saving throws and movement but it never really seems to matter. As for spider fall, if you have tumble you should be able to survive a 20 ft fall anyway.
The rogue has the advantage that he doesn't need to spread his stats as badly. I know the monk gets faster and his armour class improves but by 5th level you would hope to have picked up an item that improves AC. Apart from charging distance there is no real advantage to being faster apart from jumping (another skill that isn't used very much).
One important advantage is that the rogue can use crossbows and shortbows instead of shuriken and javelins.
Heck if you class dip into sorceror or wizard what abilities does the monk really get that you couldn't copy. Mage armour, feather fall, expeditious retreat, ...
That would actually be a fairly decent RP thing.
Alot of their skills overlap (sneaking especially) and "in game" no one knows that only rogues have trapfinding.
As long as you "acted" monkish (so to speak) you could possibly pull it off.. Not sure if it'd be "bluff" or "disguise" or whatnot though.. Probably bluff, unless you were trying to pass yourself off as a monk of a specific order or whatnot.
the PC's may figure it out OOC but ingame the ruse could work fairly well.
-S
From a roleplaying perspective it is pretty cool, and from a game perspective it is perfectly viable, but I don't think it actually outmonks the monk.
The monk will be much better defensively, with immunity to disease and poison plush decent SR, and great saves. Movement will lag (which is the monk's schtick, even if it isn't valuable to you), ability to overcome most DR. Even from a combat perspective, you are going to be losing on damage as soon as the monk takes improved natural weapon or just levels up to be doing d8. Plush the monk is equal to a fighter when it comes to CMB.
All of that is monk stuff. If you are only talking damage and skills, a rogue might be better than a monk, so they might be a better martial artist if you flavor the effects, but they will lack all of those supernatural monk abilities.
hmmmm...maybe. I think SA makes up for less damage. i never denied the great saves and immunities. Isn't the difference between a rogue and a monk in CMB only 1. As for movement, I can also get dodge and mobility and crank my acrobatics to tumble past my opponents. I can also get more skills to enhance my manouverability, like climbing and some of the rogue tricks like fast crawl and full-speed stealth and getting back on my feet. and the rogue gets twice as many skill points. Although now that there are no cross-class skills as such there is no reason why a monk can't take use magic item as well as a thief. The only big difference is ki pool which I have to admit can be pretty cool depending on how many ki points you spend . The thief might make up for this by being able to take a combat feat instead of a rogue trick every 2 levels. Soon adds up..
I think that the rogue is still going to come out ahead in damage stakes from their occasional SA as the monk is limited to doing extra damage in hand to hand and the rogue can SA within 30 ft. It would would be interesting to have a clash of the titans and play high level characters against each other.
I am happy to acknowledge that a monk (only thanks to Ki pool) is better than they used to be.
Don't forget grappling. You might not care for it and the rules are a mess, but unarmed combat is more than throwing punches.
Monks get full level instead of BAB to CMB.
Maneuver Training (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk uses
his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when
calculating his combat maneuver bonus. Base attack
bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are
added normally.
Also, in order to keep up with flurry, you are going to have to spend several feats on two weapon fighting.
Another thing. There is nothing that prevents a monk from using a quarterstaff two handed for 1.5 times damage.
Another thing I'ved loved about monks in games I've played is give them a reach weapon and they threaten 10 with the weapon and 5 ft with unarmed.
Sneak attack will make up for a lot of damage.
that is a pretty cool idea... if I ever get to play a monk I might give it a try. So basically, a monk can fight unarmed almost as well as a fighter. As for keeping up with flurry of blows. If my character already has TWF and is using a staff aren't the minuses the same. The thief would just be relying on finding magic weapons instead of Ki.
The main problem with the monk is that as a front-line fighter (it is pretty hard to flurry of blows from the back) they don't have the hitpoints or the BAB unless using CMB which all cost a feat to do well. Also because they have to spread their stats between dex, wis, str and con they can't excel in any one stat. I know that they can get agile manouvers but that is ANOTHER feat they have to get if they are not going to have a high strength.
That's a pretty nice concept and could lead to some interesting role playing if companions or enemies get a glimpse of your armor under your robes. It would certainly make getting ready for bed around the campsite awkward. You would have to go hide behind a bush and take your armor off to sleep.
I don't think it outmonks the monk either though.
Have you thought about multiclassing? A monk/rogue would be a nice combo. You could get sneak attacks a lot because people would think you were unarmed and then...WHAM! Meanwhile you could still use a quarterstaff to get an extra attack and reach.
You're right that they aren't a good front line fighter. They are best as a behind the lines fighter. They can penetrate an enemies front lines to get to their spellcasters and lay down some good grappling. Like the ranger, the monk can do a lot of things. You have to narrow your focus.
Don't forget grappling. You might not care for it and the rules are a mess, but unarmed combat is more than throwing punches.
Also, improved disarm. I still wish for some clarification on a monk disarming while bare handed, but if you work it like we have been working it, improved disarm is a must-have for any monk.
improved disarmis all very well but I think improved trip is more useful. A fighter always has another weapon but everyone loses attacks when knocked on their butt and give away a free AoO
A fighter always has another weapon but everyone loses attacks when knocked on their butt and give away a free AoO
Most fighters don't have as good a side arm as their primary weapon. Prone creatures can attack albeit at -4 penalty to attack rolls. And standing up is the only thing granting AoO from tripping nowadays. That is, successful trip doesn't grant an AoO.
I'd say tripping and disarming are quite well balanced.