While my character in this and last week's session is not your typical bare-chested behemoth barbarian, I thought I'd share some of my thoughts so far.
My character is a dex-based (DEX 17) barbarian (Shoanti- Wind Clan), built using 27 point buy (old 3.5 point buy, not shiny new Paizonian pointbuy, which I prefer) providing ranged support, generally at the beginning of a fight, until I can identify the best target for my melee, at which time I bring my dual wielded longsword and Klar (Two Weapon Fighting and Double Slice for feats)into the fray. Tymmyk happens to be a fairly smart Barbarian as well (INT 12) so he is cautious about allowing his emotions to get the best of him.
While this might not be the build everyone wants to play in the Barbarian class, it is versatile, fun and helps conserve the rage points.
The rage mechanic works quite well IMO. The points prevent wasted rage and allow me to get a little extra oomph for the last few moments of a key fight. There's nothing quite like the raging double slice to finish off a bad guy. When I am ranged support I only need my dex, but I wind up being quite effective in close combat as well in spite of the low str (13 atm).
There is virtually no problem with downtime between encounters because I only rage for a round or two max. I have become adept at avoiding damage through mobility and in the rare instance that we get encountered while I'm still breathing heavy from my last rage, I have my longbow and a move nearly double most opponents we face atm.
At 2d level I got my first rage power. I chose the strength surge ability to augment my admittedly low physical strength in grapples and for the occasional stubborn door. Altogether a workable build. We three-manned the sandpoint glassworks with myself a fighter and a druid.
I would like to play-test he Barb at high levels because it seems like with how expensive the abilities get, I might have to be even more conservative, but I still had plenty to do, and the only combat round I spent out of combat, I was spiking a door and retrieving my bow.
Obviously I have a major weak spot (Will Saves) but I enjoy playing characters who have a few less than optimal attributes for the DM to prey.. I mean play with.
Well, I am sure if one decided to RP illiteracy, no DM in the world would actually make you read the player handouts.
As for rage points I agree that the issue is not complexity. If I was going to make a high level Barbarian Boss-type NPC, I'd simply sketch out a "rage routine" ahead of time, sort of the way one selects spells prepared for a caster (and even notes regarding when said caster casts each spells) and if they were not a boss, I wouldn't expect them to be around long enough to use all those RP's.
My Barbarian had a 12 intelligence, so it made perfect sense that he could read. Also many Barbarian tribes historically employed written language or pictographs, so I think the class should allow some flexibility.
I toyed with the idea of having Tym pretend to be illiterate to play on the Tshamek's imperfect understanding of his people, but I think the cat's out of the bag with the party already. I may employ the ruse later. It helps to have people underestimate you.
"The wind flows ceaselessly down many paths. If you plan to follow it to your destiny, it pays to be able to read the road signs." Tymmyk of the Tamiir-Quah
Guarded Stance (Ex): The barbarian gains a dodge bonus to her Armor Class equal to 1/2 her barbarian level for 1 round against melee attacks. (2 rage points)
What? How? Who?
You go into "RAGE," "hacking and slashing," "not caring for bodily harm." Now it doesn't matter? You can now go into a defensive stance by spending Rage Points? How does this make "SENSE"???? Sense is the key word here my friends.
A barbarian who swims his weapon around in a rage will undoubtedly block some attacks simply because he was in the right spot at the right moment. Plus, who the hell would attack someone who's spitting at them?
Think it out, Johnny; there's no need to get so upset over these things.
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I bet Conan the Barbarian would have been a better movie if it was...Conan the "Philosopher" or Conan the "Scholar"? Whats next...the Barbarian school of knowledge skill?
Ridiculousness!!!
Actually Conan would more closly match D&D's version of a Rogue/Fighter than a barbarian.
Also from my using of rage points for high lvl as a dm ive not ran into any more trouble than the maths they used for the old rage mechanics. In fact if you have no problem keeping track of Hp then RP (Rage points) shouldent be a problem.
Actually Conan would more closly match D&D's version of a Rogue/Fighter than a barbarian.
Strange, because they made the barbarian class specifically because of Conan. We all know WoTC and previous TSR crammed as much culture and iconic value from everywhere possible. ;)
Conan became a fighter (never a rouge). Just because you steal doesn't mean you have to be a rouge. Think of t in terms of why the assassin class was dumped.
And...if you guys remember, Conan was stupid. He didn't know what the hell was going on until some other barabrain jumped on him, and started eating him in the gladiator pit.
Conan didn't learn how to read and write until he became trained (aka a fighter). I see Conan more as a low level barbarian, eventually a high level fighter with a good climb/use rope skill.
Have you ever read a Conan story? The ones by Howard, the original author?
Conan was anything but stupid. In fact, he was pretty sly and witty, in his own barbaric way. And charismatic to boot. The fact that he was not used to "civilized" customs does not mean he's stupid. In one of the early stories (but one of the last in Conan's timeline), The Phoenix in the Sword, as a king he is seen promoting the arts and culture... The arts!
And I think the Pathfinder Barbarian is ideal to model Conan-like characters. How many times does Conan "panterish twists" and "cat-like leaps", dodging enemies and darting past files of enemies to confront the sorcerer, even when he's caught in the "red mist"? That's exactly what Guarded Stance does.
Having playtested the class recently, I can say that my half-orc barbarian is much more versatile, interesting and fun to play than any previous version, and is much more Conan-like if you wish to build your PC after that fashion.
And about Illiteracy, I like 1st level Barbarians Illiterate too, but this is a very minor point, if at all, and it does not bother me at all.
And about Illiteracy, I like 1st level Barbarians Illiterate too, but this is a very minor point, if at all, and it does not bother me at all.
Exactly. If you want your Barbarians to be illiterate no one will stop you. :)
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Well, I've been playing a 1/2 Orc Barbarian for 6 levels now and I can report that I'm quite pleased.
Combat wise, Ogrhel is pretty much an old-fashioned power attack with a great axe style barbarian, although his first level feat was toughness, which is worth it let me tell you.
The rage point system is a massive improvement over the old style. Spreading my rage out over many different rounds rather than using it all up in one daily shot in my first couple levels probably kept our party wizard (as well as Ogrhel) alive.
While I'm not that impressed with of all the rage powers, the ones I've chosen have worked well. Intimidating Glare has cowed a few opponents from time to time (the 15 Charisma helps), but the real winner so far has been the increased movement power. From running all the way across the room to pound an enemy spell caster while he was monologing, to turning on the speed to out a Rube Goldberg type undead releasing trap, it's been a winner and well worth the rage points. I just picked up Knock back and haven't had an opportunity to use it yet, so I'll hold judgment for now. But, between the way cleave works in Pathfinder and the fact that Ogrhel just picked up his second attack, I have high hopes.
I've only managed to run out of RP's twice, one time at first level, and another where the enhanced move was used quite liberally. I kind of expect to have it happen a little more often now that I have my third rage power, but we'll see. Keeping that in mind, the number of RP's is just right as far as I'm concerned. Ogrhel Stays in the fight for a good long time, giving the wizard/ranger the opportunity to do what she needs, and the rouge ample time to get into flanking position to really put the hurt on.
As for the literacy issue, we didn't even think about it, in fact we didn't even notice that it wasn't mentioned in the new class description. Ogrhel cannot read, as is fitting for his upbringing. I say play it as the individual players & DM's see fit.
I think it comes down to the following:
In previous versions I avoided the Barbarian because all Barbarians were stereotypical raging meatheads, who wielded the greataxe and venerated the d12, even though they couldn't read the results.
There was simply no choice inherent in the class. Power attack, cleave, greataxe. Half orc if you could get away with it, 18 str, 18 con, 8 int, cha, wis, if not lower. No other build made that much sense in terms of damage output.
You mock my choice of playing a smart Barbarian, but I am thrilled to have the opportunity. You decry what you see as "forced literacy", but I see it as a role playing choice. You rail against seemingly silly rage choices, but if you wanted to you could never use the rage powers and be just fine.
The basic state of rage is almost exactly the same and quite a bit cheaper. At high levels you could enjoy your mindless rage virtually the whole session if you chose not to use any rage powers.
Why do you rail against a system that offers you the opportunity to play exactly the character you want to and simultaneously allows me to play the character I want to? It makes little to no sense unless you are a "me" gamer.
There are two kinds of gamers in this world. Gamers that play for love of the game and gamers that play for love of themselves. The beautiful thing is you get to pick which one you want to be.
Should I be forced to play the barbarian as you see him?
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Should I be forced to play the barbarian as you see him?
I'm in complete agreement with you Zero. Part of the fun of the game for me is breaking convention. Am I playing a Great Axe & Power Attack 1/2 Orc Barbarian? Sure, but he's also sporting a 15 Charisma, a decent wisdom, a rank in perform comedy, and a heart of gold. If everybody plays the same stereotypes every time, there's no point in playing (at least for me).
If the new rules say a Barbarian can read, great! Not every "savage" culture lacks the written word of some form or another. As I said in my last post, it should be a decision made in each individual group. Viva la variety!
Quoting definitions of words does not change the meaning to fit your purpose.
Everyone has to learn to read and write, not just barbarians. You're getting too specific in your judgments on classes and roles. There are a total of 11 classes in a standard 3.5 or Pathfinder game. That does not make up the sum of a whole word, but that's alright: Because rules and guidelines are generalized in the belief that you will alter them to fit your specific game-plan.
No one has a better point of view than any other person. Your barbarians are literal: Barbaric tribes who don't understand civilization. Fine. Some of us perceive the class as a brute warrior bent more on emotion then strict discipline.
That's all.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Main Entry: bar·bar·i·an
Pronunciation: \bär-ˈber-ē-ən\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin barbarus — more at barbarous
Date: 14th century
1 : of or relating to a land, culture, or people alien and usually believed to be inferior to another land, culture, or people
2 : lacking refinement, learning, or artistic or literary culture
Emphasis mine. The word is actually of Greek etymology, from the greek word barbaros, and was used to refer to ANY non-greek, regardless of how cultured or sophisticated they were. Just because civilized folk believe that barbarians were stupid, couldn't read, etc. didn't make that true. The whole word and its meaning have to do with sterotypes more than reality.
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JohnnyKage, it seems that you have a very narrow idea of what the barbarian class can or should be. Not every barbarian is from a primitive tribal culture, where only pictographs and oral history are used. A PC barbarian, in fact, often breaks the mold in terms of origin and motivations (as do all adventurers). I believe the Paizo interpretation of the class allows for a wider variety of individualized character types, but can certainly still represent the classic "Conan" type.
On the second point, I tested the rage points mechanic and found that it works really well for me. Admittedly, I am used to keeping track of lots of numbers as DM, but when playing the barbarian class it was not difficult to keep track of rage points. I used multiple rage abilities per turn, including some immediate actions. Overall I'm very happy with the changes.
Emphasis mine. The word is actually of Greek etymology, from the greek word barbaros, and was used to refer to ANY non-greek, regardless of how cultured or sophisticated they were. Just because civilized folk believe that barbarians were stupid, couldn't read, etc. didn't make that true. The whole word and its meaning have to do with sterotypes more than reality.Main Entry: bar·bar·i·an
Pronunciation: \bär-ˈber-ē-ən\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin barbarus — more at barbarous
Date: 14th century
1 : of or relating to a land, culture, or people alien and usually believed to be inferior to another land, culture, or people
2 : lacking refinement, learning, or artistic or literary culture
exactly- a lot of Asian cultures viewed our Western Civilisation as barbarous long after we had harnessed the power of the written word and even means of transport including steam rail. It's all a matter of perception.
I see Barbarians (in game terms) as tribal people and the adventurers drawn from their ranks as wanderers and warriors, delineated from fighters and paladins not by intelligence or savvy (or even in game abilities), but by style, beliefs and motivations.
I could have built my character as a fighter and I would hit better and probably do more damage, but I move very fast which helps me avoid damage, I have learned skills and abilities inmy long journeys that a fighter may never learn (Stealth, Acrobatics, Survival) and I can rage, making me as effective a melee combatant as the fighter for brief periods.
Barbarian is far from my favorite class, Johnny- my point is that I never wanted to play one before and now I find myself truly enjoying it.
@Xithus- I think your choice of the half orc Barbarian is great- you had an opportunity to make an iconic character that is richer and more complex than before and you embrace it and run with it. That's what I love about this system. I apologize if it seemed like I was implying that the choice was trite. In no way did I mean that.
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I never liked the illiteracy rule. It was a rule that made a character background choice for you, which is never a good idea. The barbarian was the only class that had that kind of baggage attached to it, all the other classes left their background culture completely up to you. Sure, a wizard most likely was educated, but nothing says he couldn't rely on pictograms scrawled on animal hide. But the "Barbarian" is the wild warrior in the hills, living in a tent, drinking copiously, and killing passing deer with an axe or, better yet, his bare hands. I usually change the name of the class in my games to "Berserker"*, so you have a much larger selection of background choices than just the crazy man in the hills who wears fur and eats bunnies raw.
As for the new rage mechanic, I love it. It allows for much more control over when and how long a barbarian can rage, which is actually a bit more realistic, in my opinion. I also like the rage abilities. In my dnd game, the more choices available in the core game, the better.
* Yes, I know berserker originally referred specifically to the Norse Berserkers, but the word has come into common usage as a warrior who relies on anger or rage or whatever to fuel their strength.
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@Xithus- I think your choice of the half orc Barbarian is great- you had an opportunity to make an iconic character that is richer and more complex than before and you embrace it and run with it. That's what I love about this system. I apologize if it...
No offense taken. Just stating where I was coming from.
If you really haven't played the class previously how can you honestly compare the two versions?
Out of curious, how many of you even played an epic Barbarian?
Mostly because I have refereed numerous Barbarians and run many Barbarian villains, monsters with Barbarian levels and even Epic Barbarian Big Bad Evil Guys (EBBBEG). One of the regular players in my group has played Barbarians in 5/6 campaigns I've run him in and 2/3 of the ones I've played in with him.
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Guarded Stance (Ex): The barbarian gains a dodge bonus to her Armor Class equal to 1/2 her barbarian level for 1 round against melee attacks. (2 rage points)
What? How? Who?
You go into "RAGE," "hacking and slashing," "not caring for bodily harm." Now it doesn't matter? You can now go into a defensive stance by spending Rage Points? How does this make "SENSE"???? Sense is the key word here my friends.
A barbarian who swims his weapon around in a rage will undoubtedly block some attacks simply because he was in the right spot at the right moment. Plus, who the hell would attack someone who's spitting at them?
Think it out, Johnny; there's no need to get so upset over these things.
I read it more as fighting so hard and fast that your enemies have trouble finding an opening on ya. Or, perhaps they are taken aback and intimidated and so they sorta take a penalty. But yeah it definitely clashes with what normally happens in a barbarian rage so I was considering if I would keep it in a game or not.
Given how recently widespread literacy has appeared anywhere, the idea of automatic literacy for any class in a "medieval fantasy" game is problematic at best. Given that, barbarians should be no more inclined toward illiteracy than anyone else.yea i never understood that myself, in 2nd u had to pay to read/write ans so in my games ALL classes dont read/write :) i mean in 3.5 RAW commoners can read/write, forget the barbarian reading, commoners? come oN!
So long as you aren't doing things simply because that's how they used to be in the good ol' days. If it works for you and your party then stick with it.
Remember: A human's only advantage is our adaptability.
Given how recently widespread literacy has appeared anywhere, the idea of automatic literacy for any class in a "medieval fantasy" game is problematic at best. Given that, barbarians should be no more inclined toward illiteracy than anyone else.
True. Illiteracy was the norm in medieval Europe, and only the priesthood and some nobles (not all of them) could read and write. So, if we stick to the "ridiculousness" of barbarians not being illiterate, by the same reasons only clerics and wizards should begin literate (since there's no noble class per sé), and I don't think that's going to happen anywhere soon.