Speaking of WOW... I just saw the new clips for WOW's new expansion, World of World of Warcraft. Apparently in this one you get to play a computer geek in his parent's basement playing World of Warcraft.
It looks EXCELLENT! World of World of Warcraft XD!!!
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I keep seeing this argument trotted out, and not once have I seen any cogent argument to defend this position.
I found this review of 4e on a link I found on a WoW Forum (the quote is from: Here, and the forum can be found: Here)...
The skill system has been greatly simplified, and the game is replete with MMORPG touches, such as "hunter's mark"-style powers for paladins, fighters and rangers, as well a ritual that allows players to reduce magic items to a valuable arcane dust.
And it only took me 5 minutes to find that. I'm sure if I looked harder, I could find more...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
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Speaking of WOW... I just saw the new clips for WOW's new expansion, World of World of Warcraft. Apparently in this one you get to play a computer geek in his parent's basement playing World of Warcraft.
It looks EXCELLENT! World of World of Warcraft XD!!!
Looks like Warcraft is borrowing from DnD now.
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I keep seeing this argument trotted out, and not once have I seen any cogent argument to defend this position.I found this review of 4e on a link I fond on a WoW Forum (the quote is from Herethe forum can be found: Here)...
The skill system has been greatly simplified, and the game is replete with MMORPG touches, such as "hunter's mark"-style powers for paladins, fighters and rangers, as well a ritual that allows players to reduce magic items to a valuable arcane dust.And it only took me 5 minutes to find that. I'm sure if I looked harder, I could find more...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
game informer noted the similarities in their review of of 4e as well, painting it as a selling point to their subscriber base (and admonishing their base to, perhaps, get away from the screen for a sec and play a ttrpg).
there is going to be a segment of the 4e fan base that is either blind to the direct analogies, or takes the whole "mmorpg" reference in the pejorative sense, which is sad. if we can get even a fraction of the mmorpg players to look into ttrpgs, it is a net positive for the industry. we need to get fresh blood from somewhere, after all. and why not an audience already open to fantasy role play?
I'll start caring about WOTC ripping off other games for D&D's structure when they start ripping off games that aren't utterly brilliant.
I keep seeing this argument trotted out, and not once have I seen any cogent argument to defend this position.I found this review of 4e on a link I found on a WoW Forum (the quote is from: Here, and the forum can be found: Here)...
The skill system has been greatly simplified, and the game is replete with MMORPG touches, such as "hunter's mark"-style powers for paladins, fighters and rangers, as well a ritual that allows players to reduce magic items to a valuable arcane dust.And it only took me 5 minutes to find that. I'm sure if I looked harder, I could find more...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
And, just as CPEvilref predicted, the review you provide doesn't even come close to being coherent. Even the quotation you cited is ridiculous. The "hunter's mark" similarities are in name alone. In WoW, Hunter's Mark much more closely resembles a Warlock's curse than a tank's mark (except that the entire party benefits). Hunter's Mark has pretty much nothing in common with a Fighter's combat challenge, for instance.
People are looking to find similarities between WoW and D&D, and are doing a really awful job of it because the similarities don't exist beyond the occasional superficial influence - an influence that has more to do with improving game design theory being used in the realm of computer games and less to do with trying to make D&D appeal to some nebulous, supposedly less mature "WoW generation".
I keep seeing this argument trotted out, and not once have I seen any cogent argument to defend this position.I found this review of 4e on a link I found on a WoW Forum (the quote is from: Here, and the forum can be found: Here)...
The skill system has been greatly simplified, and the game is replete with MMORPG touches, such as "hunter's mark"-style powers for paladins, fighters and rangers, as well a ritual that allows players to reduce magic items to a valuable arcane dust.And it only took me 5 minutes to find that. I'm sure if I looked harder, I could find more...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
And, just as CPEvilref predicted, the review you provide doesn't even come close to being coherent. Even the quotation you cited is ridiculous. The "hunter's mark" similarities are in name alone. In WoW, Hunter's Mark much more closely resembles a Warlock's curse than a tank's mark (except that the entire party benefits). Hunter's Mark has pretty much nothing in common with a Fighter's combat challenge, for instance.
People are looking to find similarities between WoW and D&D, and are doing a really awful job of it because the similarities don't exist beyond the occasional superficial influence - an influence that has more to do with improving game design theory being used in the realm of computer games and less to do with trying to make D&D appeal to some nebulous, supposedly less mature "WoW generation".
Yet, it is very similier to the rangers marking ability, which the quote also mentions. Reviews are usually written relitively quickly and so, occationally make mistakes. However, you appear to neglect commenting on the clear similarity between the hunters mark and hunters quarry.
Theirs are many similarities. You seem to actively ignore them, due to being unable to accept that our impressions could be in any way valied.
It may be well beyond the scope of this discussion, now, but regarding the Shardsouls...
I created the Shardsoul Slayer for Monster Manual V because I thought about how constructs could be elementals bound into construct bodies, and I thought it might be interesting if some derro tried to take a shortcut and break an elemental into bits, placing each bit in a body to create many constructs from one elemental. This, of course, meant that the shardsoul slayers were insane, as they only possessed part of their original "soul."
So, if you feel that's a WoW ripoff, I'm sorry, but it really has nothing to do with WoW. It's just a monster I created for MMV that the FR guys decided to pick up and put into FR.
Ouch...
So, all 3 pages of you guys feel dumb now?
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Ouch...
So, all 3 pages of you guys feel dumb now?
Nope. I liked the concept back on page one, and only quibbled that the name sounded a little awkward to me.
Do you feel dumb for calling all of the people *defending* the article 'dumb?' Even those who felt the idea was 'too WoW-ish' don't have any reason to feel dumb, since they were just expressing an opinion, and provided a few examples of how 4E 'feels WoW-ish' to them. (And, as also said upthread, it's a fairly toothless 'insult' to compare 4E to the sales *juggernaut* that is World of Warcraft!)
But if you think about it, you will realize that there is one latecomer to this thread who has a reason to 'feel dumb.'
If you think pathfinder is like wow, your entitled to that opinion. However, there is a sizible group of us who agree that 4e feels very like WoW. In my case, i do not feel thats an insult, its just an observation.
At the end of the day, both marks are something which encurraged the hunter/ranger to focus on a single market target and do lots of damage.
That is a degree of similarity and its only one of many such examples.
Anyone who doesn't think 4E contains MMO influences either doesn't know MMOs or doesn't know 4E. It's obvious. The devs of 4E have even made statements to that effect as I recall.
Of course, this isn't automatically a bad thing. The game should be judged on its own merits; nothing wrong with having influences from any other part of gaming.
When you make the comparison to aspects of MMO, you're automatically going to get a knee-jerk response from people who have a chip on their shoulder about it. It's a good way of identifying people with whom there is no sense in discussion the new edition.
For the rest of us, we can acknowledge the fact and say "so what?"
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Anyone who doesn't think 4E contains MMO influences either doesn't know MMOs or doesn't know 4E. It's obvious. The devs of 4E have even made statements to that effect as I recall.
Of course, this isn't automatically a bad thing. The game should be judged on its own merits; nothing wrong with having influences from any other part of gaming.
When you make the comparison to aspects of MMO, you're automatically going to get a knee-jerk response from people who have a chip on their shoulder about it. It's a good way of identifying people with whom there is no sense in discussion the new edition.
For the rest of us, we can acknowledge the fact and say "so what?"
i agree with this 100%. taking elements from a wildly popular game in an attempt to attract the players of said game into a more immersive, more socially interactive game is in no way a BAD thing.
stop seeing the comparisons as being pejorative, even if some detractors use it as such. it was a STATED design point, it isn't "evil", and it is one of the things that made the new edition (arguably) easier to play.
stop with the knee jerk reactions already :)
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I have no problem with 4e stealing good ideas from WoW. In fact, I encourage it. If its a good idea, and you can use it, do it. The thing is, I think that the ideas that WotC took are BAD ideas for a tabletop game. Much of the defining attributes of DnD I feel are gone. What made the Wizard so interesting was the sheer volume of abilities that were at your fingertips. Instead, you just have a few WoW-esque talents or "powers". In fact, you have the same number as everyone else, just like in WoW.
Like I said, if the ideas are good, and you can take them, take them! Make your game better. I like the whole soul-shard or soul-binding concept. It gives warlocks a good opportunity to roleplay their use of "evil" abilities for good purposes. But, as a system, overall, I think 4e is a large step in the wrong direction for tabletop RPGs. If it's for you, please enjoy! I think it may be the right system for some people. It is just not as much fun for me as 3.5 and Pathfinder, and it makes me sad that much of what I feel is special has been discarded.
Anyone who doesn't think 4E contains MMO influences either doesn't know MMOs or doesn't know 4E. It's obvious. The devs of 4E have even made statements to that effect as I recall.
Of course, this isn't automatically a bad thing. The game should be judged on its own merits; nothing wrong with having influences from any other part of gaming.
When you make the comparison to aspects of MMO, you're automatically going to get a knee-jerk response from people who have a chip on their shoulder about it. It's a good way of identifying people with whom there is no sense in discussion the new edition.
For the rest of us, we can acknowledge the fact and say "so what?"
i agree with this 100%. taking elements from a wildly popular game in an attempt to attract the players of said game into a more immersive, more socially interactive game is in no way a BAD thing.
stop seeing the comparisons as being pejorative, even if some detractors use it as such. it was a STATED design point, it isn't "evil", and it is one of the things that made the new edition (arguably) easier to play.
stop with the knee jerk reactions already :)
Nothing wrong at all, but it has alienated some people, and not out of a knee jerk reactions in all cases. There are a great many people who, simply do not like the way the new game feels, because of the changes. Them not liking it, does not make them stupid or knee jerkers or anything else bad, it just means they have different sensiblities.
I have no problem with 4e stealing good ideas from WoW. In fact, I encourage it. If its a good idea, and you can use it, do it. The thing is, I think that the ideas that WotC took are BAD ideas for a tabletop game. Much of the defining attributes of DnD I feel are gone.
I agree with this. I like 4E, but it will not ever replace previous editions of D&D for me. I look at it as a new and fun game.
Nothing wrong at all, but it has alienated some people, and not out of a knee jerk reactions in all cases. There are a great many people who, simply do not like the way the new game feels, because of the changes. Them not liking it, does not make them stupid or knee jerkers or anything else bad, it just means they have different sensiblities.
I agree with this. The knee-jerk reaction I was talking about was on the part of the pro-4E people who have a complete fit if anyone points out that it has elements inspired by MMOs.
I keep seeing this argument trotted out, and not once have I seen any cogent argument to defend this position.
Thank you for that statement, because then no amount of evidence or arguing from me will have the faintest possibility of changing your mind.
In essence, you saved me several hours of time that I might have spent otherwise.
I wish that more folks on-line would be as forthright!
In service,
Rich
I agree with this. The knee-jerk reaction I was talking about was on the part of the pro-4E people who have a complete fit if anyone points out that it has elements inspired by MMOs.
I thought about running a 4E session with a graveyard where slain PCs would just reappear and villains that would regenerate after a fixed number of hours of play.
My players are already unhappy enough though with the cartoony feel to 4E. So, the joke would not have been funny for them.
In service,
Rich
Go to The Original Dr. Games Site.
I agree with this. The knee-jerk reaction I was talking about was on the part of the pro-4E people who have a complete fit if anyone points out that it has elements inspired by MMOs.
Nothing wrong at all, but it has alienated some people, and not out of a knee jerk reactions in all cases. There are a great many people who, simply do not like the way the new game feels, because of the changes. Them not liking it, does not make them stupid or knee jerkers or anything else bad, it just means they have different sensiblities.
Sorry, i was talking in fairly general terms and kind of missed your point a little, entirely my fault :)
I like 4E, but it will not ever replace previous editions of D&D for me. I look at it as a new and fun game.
Completely agree with this! 4e has the context for the newer players, e.g., the 10-14 year old crowd that older versions did not.
I bought a few core rules sets for 4e and will likely use them at CONs and such where there are many younger players.
In service,
Rich
Go to The Original Dr. Games Site .
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Sorry, i was talking in fairly general terms and kind of missed your point a little, entirely my fault :)I agree with this. The knee-jerk reaction I was talking about was on the part of the pro-4E people who have a complete fit if anyone points out that it has elements inspired by MMOs.
Nothing wrong at all, but it has alienated some people, and not out of a knee jerk reactions in all cases. There are a great many people who, simply do not like the way the new game feels, because of the changes. Them not liking it, does not make them stupid or knee jerkers or anything else bad, it just means they have different sensiblities.
ditto for me. i like 4e as a game, it isn't bad at all, but i do see a lot of elements from mmorpgs in the presentation, and i was also asking the 4e fans to stop taking every reference as an affront to the game.
like i said, anything that gets kids off the x-box or pc and to the gaming table is a GOOD thing...