Truly and honestly I have a hard time finding female characters in fiction that really capture me and have me respect and adore them. However, I have to say (though not a DnD based world) I really loved Gil (Gil-shalos) in the Darwath Trilogy written by Barbara Hambly. She's intelligent, strongwilled, and awesome with a sword (she has this great combat sequence at the end of the first book. She of course is fighting a man that looks down on her, and though she takes beating, she elegantly disembowels the b$#tard)
And since we're talking over all fiction, I'd have to say that C.E Murphy writes some great, strong female characters (especially Joanne Walker of the Walker Files series: another well loved character of mine). Laurell K. Hamiliton has her moments, however her characters always seem to either use sex, or be used by it. While sexuality and sensuality are almost always cloaked over females, it gets tiresome when it seems that those are the only weapons a female has. (that's one of the reasons I love the new Action females in film ex. Mila Jovovich and Michelle Rodriguez. They kick major a$$ and they look hot and tempting, but they don't jump in bed every other scene to get the point across that they're female.)
X-men has great, strong females. And the X-men dramas are really great at making their character's personalities and conflicts real and personable. (I'm a great fan of Rogue in the animated series and I just loved Emma Frost).
As far as PCs in Rpgs are concerned, my favorite and most developed character I've created is my namesake Inara Red Cloak. A young, female Royal Body Guard (FGT/RGE with Macquar Crusader, Streetfighter, Reaping Mauler prestige classes). She has taken an honor vow to be chaste until marriage, and will not accept marriage offers unless her king allows her to be married.
another great character being my Halfling female named Skipping Rock. A busty halfling with a love of peach brandy and a lusty men, she continuously amuses and captivates almost every group I roleplay her in. In the first campaign I had her in she established a ragtag party of outcasts that is almost wholely Neutral aligned and became the captain of a "privateer" ship. I based her personality on Malcom Reynolds on Firefly. She came out pretty darn good.
mostly I don't like to play female characters. Being female myself, I hate the prejudices and assumptions that other players deliberately and unconsciously place on female characters (and female players). I spent a few gaming sessions being ignored and talked over until I spat out the answer to a rules question before the they finished asking.
Now, my gaming group gets chills (of excitement and apprehension) any time I announce I'm playing a female. ... they tend to be memorable at best... and showstoppers at worst.
PS. Zoe on Firefly...A woman for little girls to look up. (and a few men as well)
|
Joss decided to go with the hypnotism / claw swipe thing in that scene because *he forgot that Juliet Landau was a kickboxer / fitness nut!* She later mentioned regretting that they didn't have a big fight scene with kickin' and punchin' and he was like, 'DOH!'Incidentally, do you have a source for that anecdote? I teach a course on Buffy and I'd love to use it.
Afraid not, I ran across mention of it on Television Without Pity, and it (purportedly) was something that Joss mentioned at a convention panel or something.
|
Joss decided to go with the hypnotism / claw swipe thing in that scene because *he forgot that Juliet Landau was a kickboxer / fitness nut!* She later mentioned regretting that they didn't have a big fight scene with kickin' and punchin' and he was like, 'DOH!'
I'm glad he did, because that was such a defining moment for the character, and would have been ruined by a all-too common stage fight. When Kendra attacks Drusilla and she just like...cobra strikes her, and drops her in a flat second, it establishes instantly that she is way, way, way more badass and scary that your average vampire goth chick (which are really a dime a dozen in the Buffyverse). Because your average vamp just tries to pound on you with vamp-fu, and vamp-fu is easily overcome by Slayer Training. But Drusilla has like...cobra eyes, and the cobra eyes make all your Slayer training worthless. Way scarier.
It plays fully into the whole idea that Drusilla is touched by a special power and gives her that "evil sorceress" vibe that really sets the character. Plus, it helps define Drusilla against her lover Spike, who is the quintessential "I hit it and make it fall down." sort of idiot fighter.
|
|
Joss decided to go with the hypnotism / claw swipe thing in that scene because *he forgot that Juliet Landau was a kickboxer / fitness nut!* She later mentioned regretting that they didn't have a big fight scene with kickin' and punchin' and he was like, 'DOH!'I'm glad he did, because that was such a defining moment for the character, and would have been ruined by a all-too common stage fight. When Kendra attacks Drusilla and she just like...cobra strikes her, and drops her in a flat second, it establishes instantly that she is way, way, way more badass and scary that your average vampire goth chick (which are really a dime a dozen in the Buffyverse). Because your average vamp just tries to pound on you with vamp-fu, and vamp-fu is easily overcome by Slayer Training. But Drusilla has like...cobra eyes, and the cobra eyes make all your Slayer training worthless. Way scarier.
Neat that you caught the 'snake' motif there. Joss mentioned once that older vampires turned increasingly animalistic, with the Master being batlike and Kakistos turning into some sort of boar or pig, and that he intended Drusilla to evoke a more serpentine look. (He also said he didn't want to use 'standard' vampire prosthetics on her, because she had such an interesting face, and he wanted to build off of it, not hide it under the same piece of plastic that Darla had worn.)
It plays fully into the whole idea that Drusilla is touched by a special power and gives her that "evil sorceress" vibe that really sets the character. Plus, it helps define Drusilla against her lover Spike, who is the quintessential "I hit it and make it fall down." sort of idiot fighter.
It's kind of neat that Spike, the refined shy and upper-class would-be poet, turns into a foul-mouthed bare-knuckled street brawler and Angel, the deadbeat wastrel who spends his time drinking and whoring, turns into a refined book-reading 'gentleman' sociopath, and they both despise each other, for idolizing / exemplifying the sorts of people that they are respectively trying to escape from! Most of the vampires seem to have *huge* chips on their shoulders about their mortal lives, and desperately try to re-invent themselves to 'prove' that they aren't the same person.
Except for Harmony. Clueless as always. She *likes* who she was as a mortal. :)
What type of characters do you prefer to play?
All types, but I always like characters with a significant vulnerability. Someone with a weakness, with buttons to push.
Which woman fantasy characters work for you?
Smart ones, dumb ones, sexy ones, modest ones...whatever. I like independence and a noticeable personality. My favourites are probably Tenar from the Earthsea books, Miss Parker from the Pretender tv series, Agent Scully from the X-Files, Eilonwy from the Prydain Chronicles, pretty much all the women from Firefly...those are off the top of my head.
Which authors write women characters well?
I can't think of an answer to this, but I think Ursula K. LeGuin writes male characters shockingly well.
-Amber S.
I have a few that I have enjoyed. A small list:
I thoroughly enjoyed Kitiara and Laurana in the original Dragonlance trilogy novels (Autumn Twilight/Winter Night/Spring Dawning). They contrasted so well against each other, and Laurana in particular grew so much in that trilogy from what she started out as. I read the trilogy at the age of about eleven or twelve and it had a positive impact on my own outlook in life.
Lessa from the first Pern novel (which I can't freakin' recall right now). Again, strong character that stood fast in her beliefs and desire.
Ehlana in Eddings' Elenium/Tamuli trilogies. Not a warrior woman, but her political intellect was quite enjoyable. Sephrenia in those series was enjoyable too, a nice matron/teacher figure for the protagonists.
I've only just started reading Black God's Kiss, so I have to see if Jirel will get on the list (most likely she will ;) ).
I didn't discover fantasy until I was in high school, and I remember growing up I would look through the biographies desperately hoping to find an interesting female in there somewhere. (Grania O'Malley and Eleanor D'Aquitaine were particular favorites.) I watched She-Ra religiously, and my mom thought it was weird that I had She-Ra action figures instead of Barbies :) When I did start reading fantasy, I of course started with Lord of the Rings, and I was especially enchanted by Eowyn. As I went on, I would occasionally get frustrated that the action-adventure stories I liked best often relegated the girls to the sidelines, but there were bright spots. Aerin in The Hero and The Crown by Robin McKinley. Kerowyn in By The Sword by Mercedes Lackey. Susan from the Terry Pratchett books. (I totally want to be Granny Weatherwax when I grow up ;) And Jirel of Joiry, of course.
While the female characters I love in books and movies are usually the fighter type, for some reason I always seem to play the spellcaster. Weird, but true. Last five characters: warmage, cleric, warlock, sorcerer, and a homebrew class called a Spellborn where you roll randomly for your spells known. All flamboyant personalities in their own special ways.
|
Authors:
1} Charlotte Perkins Gilman
2} Virginia Woolf
3} Aphra Behn
4} Kate Chopin
Characters:
1} Caddy Compson (The Sound and the Fury by Faulkner)
2} Queen Margaret (Richard III by Shakespeare)
3} Katharina (The Taming of the Shrew by Shakespeare)
4} Wyf of Bath (The Canterbury Tales by Chaucer)
5} Calixta ("The Storm" by Chopin)
6} Miss Hadley ("The Tenancy of Mr. Eex" by Paula Volsky) Mona & Paizo & gamers everywhere:
Honorable Mentions} Tess of the D'Urbervilles, Little Dorrit, Jane Eyre.
(Others deserving as well but these are the first ones that jump out at me.)
------------------------------------
Note:
Some have mentioned Arya Starke(?) and Hermione as examples. These are not women characters; these are children characters.
The best child character who is also female:
1} Pearl (The Scarlet Letter by Hawthorne)
-W. E. Ray
|
Pfft. That's hardly fair at all. Meatheads always die, whether they are male or female meatheads. Whoever wrote that piece doesn't know what they're talking about, they're seeing everything skewed througha feminist lens and thus engaging in a whole lot of epic fail.
The author is correct that "If one woman is wearing combat boots and fatigues, and the other is wearing a miniskirt and high heels, the one in sensible footgear is going to die." But the author fails to connect that to its corresponding trope: "If one man is a trained ex-Navy seal, and the other man is a nebbish librarian who can't throw a punch, the nebbish librarian will beat the bad guy, get the girl, and mourn the heroic death of his warrior companion."
Characters like Vasquez don't die because of some misogynistic hatred of women soldiers,
Little bit of an overreaction/overreading here eh? The irritation is due to more realistically strong female characters(or at least practical ones) getting short changed due to being less marketable or appealing.
Also, the VAD trope specifically refers to the cases where it's two Action Girls involved, such as cases where Catsuit MacSexpot survives while SWATTY O'Kevlar doesn't. That's also why the inclusion of AVP2 as a subversion of the trope is rejected on that very page on the grounds that the one that didn't survive was a Disposable Victim, not an Action Girl.
I just think you're possibly jumping the gun and yelling feminism when there are other things at work there.
|
|
From the comics, the pre-mohawk version of Storm who was serene and self-assured, and yet had a backbone of steel. When she became contemptuous of everyone around her and 'put up her armor,' she felt scared and broken, overcompensating by pushing people away. At some point the writers mistook 'strong' for 'angry black chick.'
I never really saw her as contemptuous of others or even that angry during the mohawk years. She got pretty boring afterwards and during the 90's and the movie characterization certainly didn't do her any favors, but she never came across as much angrier than the rest of her teammates who weren't Wolverine at the time. Wilder, yeah, but she still had the nurturing side going on too.
Rahne, from X-Factor, was literally the soul and moral center of the team. I'm not sure the book will survive without her.
I said that Storm was one my favorites growing up, but Rahne was my absolute top fave. The recent turns that character has taken are a large part of why I've mostly given up on Marvel and DC comics.
And I can't mention Rahne without Danielle Moonstar coming into the mix. She was another great character(that has also been stomped all over recently).
And then there's Illyana....
|
|
Lessa from the first Pern novel (which I can't freakin' recall right now).
Dragonflight. Loved the first six books of that series (as well as some of McCaffrey's other stuff, like To Ride Pegasus and The Ship Who Sang). My mom had quite a few books by Anne McCaffrey, Patricia McKillip, Linda Bushyager, Andre Norton, Tanith Lee, etc. so my first exposure to sci-fi growing up was authors like these. (She also seemed fond of Roger Zelazny and Larry Niven.)
Rahne was my absolute top fave. The recent turns that character has taken are a large part of why I've mostly given up on Marvel and DC comics.
Same here. I'm digging what Peter David has done with Monet in X-Factor, but I fear that the team dynamic I enjoyed will be utterly lost with Rahne's departure. I won't even read that Team Sniktbub comic called X-Force.
And I can't mention Rahne without Danielle Moonstar coming into the mix. She was another great character(that has also been stomped all over recently).
Ah yes, the animal-communicating sense-your-fears illusion-creating flying-horse-riding sense-death-coming fight-death-to-save-people manifest-energy-bow-and-arrows create-solid-objects-out-of-fear-energy person. Poor Dani. She deserves so much better than to have been so ruthlessly Psylocked around.
And then there's Illyana....
Another cool character that I have no freaking idea what is going on with these days. She's not-dead-again, last I saw, but who knows where she is and what she's up to.
I think that's one of the reason that bit characters like Dr Cecilia Reyes, Unuscione and Joanna Cargill/Frenzy are some of my favorite X-femmes, because they don't get enough airtime to become hopelessly messed up...
|
|
I must admit to having a thing for 'Tank Girl' and River Tam from Firefly.
Why is it I'm most attracted to girls who could kick my ass?
Aeryn Sun? Lt. Ellen Ripley? Tasha Yar? Sarah Conner? Buffy the Vampire Slayer?
A surprising number of male fans of sci-fi and fantasy have a thing for the powerful women, whether it's physical power (Seven of Nine), ass-kicking take-no-prisoners attitude (Vasquez) or total confidence and authority (Cordelia Chase) or some combination of the above.
|
|
Same here. I'm digging what Peter David has done with Monet in X-Factor, but I fear that the team dynamic I enjoyed will be utterly lost with Rahne's departure. I won't even read that Team Sniktbub comic called X-Force.
According to what the writers of the series have had to say, you're probably not missing much.
I started to post an explanation of the Illyana situation until I realized I actualy have no damn clue what's really going on with her. Supposedly there's a Magik that consists of the Darkchilde version of Illyana without her human soul ruling Limbo again. As well as some alternate reality version of Illyana having possibly survived that House of M crossover. Or something.
It's times like this that make me say "hell with it" and dig out the Asgardian Wars TPB again. It's easier that way.
|
|
Little bit of an overreaction/overreading here eh? The irritation is due to more realistically strong female characters(or at least practical ones) getting short changed due to being less marketable or appealing....I just think you're possibly jumping the gun and yelling feminism when there are other things at work there.
Well then, allow me to quote from the very page you linked to: "Since the femininity and sex appeal of a character determines their usefulness as Love Interest or Fan Service, uncompromisingly badass females are more disposable."
I'm sorry, but I just have trouble anyone who was not a pretty hardcore feminist could make a claim like that. Leaping to the conclusion that the Vasquez type character is killed because of a lack of femininity and sex appeal is making a very powerful statement, and is a not particularly subtle accusation of misogyny. You have to have a very low opinion of women to kill female characters for not being pretty.
Of course, male characters like Vasquez die by the droves, and no one ever suggests its because they weren't as effeminate or sexually appealing as the primary character.
To reduce the very complex reasons why characters in fictional tales die to simplistic rationales like uncompromisingly badass females are more disposable because they aren't pretty and girly enough is just looking for sexism where it doesn't exist.
That Vasquez was used is a particularly humorous, since the primary reason she exists as a character in that movie is to clear up any doubts as to whether the conflict is between men and women, but rather to establish that it is between civilians and soldiers. Vasquex allows the moral of the film to be "A family is more powerful than any army." rather than "Two chicks is more powerful than any number of guys." But Vasquez, as a marine, was created to die. Which puts her in the same category as 99% of all male characters ever: created to die.
Also, the VAD trope specifically refers to the cases where it's two Action Girls involved, such as cases where Catsuit MacSexpot survives while SWATTY O'Kevlar doesn't. That's also why the inclusion of AVP2 as a subversion of the trope is rejected on that very page on the grounds that the one that didn't survive was a Disposable Victim, not an Action Girl.
The trope is the result of deliberately blinding oneself and being sexist. If the author took a more egalitarian view, they would see that the true trope is pan-gender; whenever two action heroes are involved, the less experienced, less capable, less likely to actually survive character, is almost always the survivor in the end. It really doesn't matter what the genders involved are.
This kind of crap always gets on my nerves.
|
|
Little bit of an overreaction/overreading here eh? The irritation is due to more realistically strong female characters(or at least practical ones) getting short changed due to being less marketable or appealing....I just think you're possibly jumping the gun and yelling feminism when there are other things at work there.Well then, allow me to quote from the very page you linked to: "Since the femininity and sex appeal of a character determines their usefulness as Love Interest or Fan Service, uncompromisingly badass females are more disposable."
I'm sorry, but I just have trouble anyone who was not a pretty hardcore feminist could make a claim like that.
I'm going to have to disagree there. If anything I'm an equalist, and I've seen exactly that trope play out many times.
Leaping to the conclusion that the Vasquez type character is killed because of a lack of femininity and sex appeal is making a very powerful statement, and is a not particularly subtle accusation of misogyny. You have to have a very low opinion of women to kill female characters for not being pretty.
Or it could just point to plain old shallowness on the part of the writers or expected of the audience. I've seen female fans clamor for the Vasquez to die because she didn't fit their "ideal".
Of course, male characters like Vasquez die by the droves, and no one ever suggests its because they weren't as effeminate or sexually appealing as the primary character.
I think here you're missing that there are a LOT more male Vasquezes and that there is still a disparity in the importance of sex appeal expected of male and female characters.(or a disparity that writers/producers expect the audience to expect).
To reduce the very complex reasons why characters in fictional tales die to simplistic rationales like uncompromisingly badass females are more disposable because they aren't pretty and girly enough is just looking for sexism where it doesn't exist.That Vasquez was used is a particularly humorous, since the primary reason she exists as a character in that movie is to clear up any doubts as to whether the conflict is between men and women, but rather to establish that it is between civilians and soldiers. Vasquex allows the moral of the film to be "A family is more powerful than any army." rather than "Two chicks is more powerful than any number of guys."
See, that last bit is itself an oversimplification(and downright wrong) assumption of what people read Vasquez as being in that film. The term Vasquez is used because she's probably on of the most iconic examples of the trope, not because people honestly expected a super amazon to show up her male comrades or to steal the heroine's thunder.
The trope is the result of deliberately blinding oneself and being sexist. If the author took a more egalitarian view, they would see that the true trope is pan-gender; whenever two action heroes are involved, the less experienced, less capable, less likely to actually survive character, is almost always the survivor in the end. It really doesn't matter what the genders involved are.
This kind of crap always gets on my nerves.
I think you're missing several details, including the point that the Vasquez is frequently relegated to the role of disposable mook, and rarely allowed to be the more survivable lead. At best, Vasquez typically gets stuck playing second fiddle. JRPGs are especially bad about this.
Sorry, but people pointing at bogeymen to dismiss others' irritation with media trends gets on my nerves.
If we're going to keep women authors of fantasy in the discussion as well, it would be a disservice to this thread to omit the myriad works of Andre Norton, particularly the Witch World series.
Some have mentioned Arya Starke(?) and Hermione as examples. These are not women characters; these are children characters.
At what age does Hermione no longer count as a child?
Harmony...
I loved how in season five of Angel, she was working in the secretarial pool and "trying really hard" not to kill people. I loved that her redemption was absurd and real (to her).
The first time I really thought about whiteness as a race was when I did some volunteering at a Boys and Girls club. It was a really productive experience for me. It sounds like China is for you too.
I don't come from a patently racist environment, just the usual white kid in mixed society with all stripes of friends.
And my wife is a Filipina, and not the white kind, as brown as can be.
The lesson is, I'm about as far as a white guy gets from being a racist - but when you put someone in a situation where it's easy to generalize, you will. It's cognitively unavoidable. All we can do is be conscious of it.
Which authors write women characters well?
Check out Jane Espenson. Joss deservedly gets a lot of credit, but Jane's been involved with an unusual number of classic episodes in a variety of different genres. And lots of them deal with gender, or simply fleshing out secondary characters and making them human, which is also a point of this thread:
BtVS: Band Candy (Joyce, Snyder and Giles as teens), Gingerbread (more on Joyce and Willow's MOM!), Earshot (Columbine before Columbine), Superstar (Jonathan's signature episode), I Was Made to Love You (Robot girlfriend), Life Serial (Buffy vs. Life), Doublemeat Palace (McDs pulled its sponsorship), Storyteller (Andrew's signature episode)
Angel: "Rm w/ a Vu" (Cordy remembers that she's fierce) and "Guise Will Be Guise" (Wesley as Angel)
BSG: The Passage (Kat)
Gilmore Girls: The Reigning Lorelai (getting underwear for a dead woman)
Firefly: Shindig ("with a swha'?")
Andy Barker, PI: "Fareway, My Lovely" (obese man as incredibly desirable)
Some have mentioned Arya Starke(?) and Hermione as examples. These are not women characters; these are children characters.
This is nonsense, at least in the instance of Arya Stark. She started out at a child character, but age aside she's not much a child character any more, and I suspect she's going to transition into a strong woman character if she lives.
Also, the title of the thread specified "Fantasy" literature. I don't think most of your examples qualify. If we're going outside of the fantasy genre, then the door opens a great deal.
Also, the title of the thread specified "Fantasy" literature. ... If we're going outside of the fantasy genre, then the door opens a great deal.
I forget: does sci-fi count? I thought the new "hip" name for sci-fi/fantasy was "speculative fiction," hence my inclusion of BSG and LeGuin. Veronica Mars was included simply because nothing can hold her back, not even genre.
I forget: does sci-fi count? I thought the new "hip" name for sci-fi/fantasy was "speculative fiction," hence my inclusion of BSG and LeGuin. Veronica Mars was included simply because nothing can hold her back, not even genre.
Science fiction count I think. You could argue that it is a subset of "fantasy," though it is generally not what people think of when they think of fantasy.
I think a lot of what is labeled science fiction is really fantasy anyway, because the "science" element is virtually non-existent ;)
As a DM, my most successful female NPCs have been a grandmother of a player's paladin, who kept trying to set her granddaughter up with that nice boy down the road. She tolerated no foolishness from the PCs and was the most fearsome commoner you ever did see.
Another successful one has been a BFF to the PC, an arcane magic nerd who really tries to be Lawful, but can't help herself when it comes to magic. Even worse, she failed as a wizard and used spontaneous magic, making her a sorcerer! The shame! (Her boyfriend joked that he was looking forward to her incipient belt fetish.) She's in an associate's degree program for sorcery.
|
|
I think a lot of what is labeled science fiction is really fantasy anyway, because the "science" element is virtually non-existent ;)
Star Wars in particular. But that's not good for this thread because Princess Leia (particularly in various 'getting captured and dressed up like a dancing girl' or 'getting captured and tortured by Vader' moments) isn't the best treatment of a female character ever, IMO.
Lucas is many things, but Rodenberry he ain't.
Star Wars in particular. But that's not good for this thread because Princess Leia (particularly in various 'getting captured and dressed up like a dancing girl' or 'getting captured and tortured by Vader' moments) isn't the best treatment of a female character ever, IMO.Lucas is many things, but Rodenberry he ain't.
No doubt. Leia had her moments in New Hope and Empire Strikes Back where she was a pretty strong figure. Return of the Jedi really just screwed that up. Though I guess she does strangle jabba.
|
|
No doubt. Leia had her moments in New Hope and Empire Strikes Back where she was a pretty strong figure. Return of the Jedi really just screwed that up. Though I guess she does strangle jabba.
Dammit. What is up with this stuff?
Luke Skywalker gets jumped by Sand Raiders, knocked out cold, and nearly dies? Plot Development.
Luke Skywalker gets his ass handed to him by a wampa, ends up hanging like a slab of meat in a cave? Plot Development.
Luke Skywalker gets captured by Imperial Forces and brought before Vader as a prisoner? Plot Devlopment.
Princess Leia gets captured by the Empire and held prisoner, and ends up saving a poorly planned and haphazard rescue attempt from it's own bungling planners? Poor treatment of a female character.
Princess Leia gets captured by Jabba during failed rescue attempt, kills Jabba, and frees herself? Poor treatment of a female character.
I don't mean to threadcrap, but I am getting so freaking sick of people acting as if any female character suffering any sort of setback -- basically be treated exactly the same as the male characters -- being singled out as a "poor treatment of female characters."
I swear, it's like some people are only satisified if every female character is more powerful than god, completely unstoppable, and never suffers a single setback. Any flaw or weakness that might help humanize a character is suddenly proof of sexism of the writers.
I mean seriously, if you actually PAY ATTENTION during Star Wars, you'll notice that no one actually ever rescues the Princess except the Princess. The closest the guys ever come to rescuing her is when Luke opens the door to her cell. That is the FULL extent of his rescue effort. She takes over their plan from there, gets them off the detention block, and takes command of the entire unit.
In the Jabba's Palace scene, nobody rescues Leia. She takes advantage of Luke and Lando's rescue of Han to free herself and kill her captor. And the only reason she gets captured in Jabba's throne room in the first place is because she can escape with a carbon-sick hand slung over her shoulder.
I know this comes off as sexist, like I'm bashing on women or something, but really: this just offends me as a writer. As a writer, I know that the most interesting characters are those who struggle, fail, and have weaknesses. That's true regardless of gender.
Dammit. What is up with this stuff?
This post comes off as a tremendous over-reaction to what was said, which is exactly what it is.
I'll respond to it nevertheless, but in the future I recommend ingestion of valium (through a legally-obtained prescription of course) and an attempt at proof-reading your own post for hyperbole.
As I said, above, Leia does pretty well in A New Hope and Empire. By the time you get to RotJ, Leia bungles her own rescue attempt of Han (somewhat stupidly I might add) and then winds up in a bikini and needing to be rescued herself. She strangles Jabba, but that opportunity only becomes available due to the actions of her rescuers. It's a relatively lame departure from what she's like in the other two original movies.
Of course, the newer movies are worse, with Padme existing as a pretty weak character who is there primarily to turn Anakin into Vader and to die in childbirth of a broken heart.
Anyway, I like Star Wars, but it is what it is - fairly shallow adventure material.
Illyana Rasputin from The New Mutants.
A mutant with teleportation abilities...a demonic sorceress...she is so many things! Her soulsword was great, also.
She wielded a sword without compromising her femininity. She is making a big comeback in the X-Comics...and for good rason.
I go with the Whedonverse guys references above. Buffy and Angel (and Firefly in a smaller measure) have redefined in a lot of ways my approach at party and campaign management.
|
|
Some have mentioned Arya Starke(?) and Hermione as examples. These are not women characters; these are children characters.
This is nonsense, at least in the instance of Arya Stark. She started out at a child character, but age aside she's not much a child character any more, and I suspect she's going to transition into a strong woman character if she lives.
Also, the title of the thread specified "Fantasy" literature. I don't think most of your examples qualify. If we're going outside of the fantasy genre, then the door opens a great deal.
Okay.
I quit reading the George R. R. Martin series right about the time Arya landed on the other continent and joined a monastery-like place. So I don't know anything about her after that (though I think that is near the end of the series).
Likewise, I only read the first two Harry Potter books so I don't know how old Hermione gets by the end of that series.
I will say, however, that kid characters really should be (and are in literary criticism) separated from adults during discussion. But you're right, that doesn't matter here at all -- really, I just wanted an excuse to list Pearl from The Scarlet Letter because she's one of my favs, and if I mentioned her without separating her from adult characters I'd feel dirty about myself.
--------------------
Regarding the OP's specification of fantasy lit, well, I don't get to read much fantasy lit but I really wanted to add something to the Thread. One of my areas of focus is Feminist Literature and I wanted to throw out a few of my favs for everyone else, just in case it roused any interest.
-W. E. Ray
I like the female characters who are well-rounded, like their male counterparts. They don't need to be the best at anything, but they need a dang personality.
I'm sick of the ultra-bad-ass-babes who are better at everybody in everything and they have bewbs!* They are either overly sexual OR so asexual it's a joke (based on if the writer wants to write some sensual theme or not). Or, in Japanese storytelling, the good-girl type who wont/cant do anything and just stand around with their arms across their chest like they are permanently praying.
I've fallen out of novel-reading as of late, and the novels I've recently read are very female-lacking (the Gotrek and Felix novels, where the only female character is antagonistic and spoiled.. I think that says something about the author). There are some female characters I can site from anime and manga, but I doubt people would know what I'm talking about.
Edit: and for the record, I refuse to read any novel, play any game, or watch any movie where the male lead is the ultimate bad-arse too. I'm more of a Bilbo Baggins-type of fan. Nedless to say, I have a VERY limit amount of entertainment to read/watch/play.
...Of course, the newer movies are worse, with Padme existing as a pretty weak character who is there primarily to turn Anakin into Vader and to die in childbirth of a broken heart. ...
I'm not the biggest fan of Star Wars, but I'm going to defend the Padme/Lei thing. Watch the movies in numerical order. Padme becomes weaker and weaker as time goes on. She breaks under the pressure and is a victim. Then her daughter comes in. Lei is what Padme was not: a strong female lead who does NOT crack.
|
|
This post comes off as a tremendous over-reaction to what was said, which is exactly what it is.
That's because what was said exists in a context of near-constant complaining about the deficit of good female characters, like the nonsense about Vasquez above. It just never stops, and I'm totally fed up. Y'all are impossible to satisfy. Insert your own off-color joke here.
It's not enough that there be good, complex fully realized female characters. No, they all have to be absolutely perfect. It's like "Leia is a flawed female character because she needed to be rescued." But is Han Solo a flawed male character because he needed to be rescued? Of course not.
I'd bet money that if you all got the perfect female character who never fails, never needs to be rescued, if you got your female Doc Savage who can do everything better than everyone else, you'd find fault with that to.
Sethra Lavode from Steven Brust's Dragaera series.
I'd bet money that if you all got the perfect female character who never fails, never needs to be rescued, if you got your female Doc Savage who can do everything better than everyone else, you'd find fault with that to.
Yeah you might make that bet because you may well be just the kind of person who thinks they know something about someone via an internet forum, which is sufficient evidence of ignorance in and of itself. Face it, your post made you look like an asshat. Maybe if you had expressed it better...
Regarding the OP's specification of fantasy lit, well, I don't get to read much fantasy lit but I really wanted to add something to the Thread. One of my areas of focus is Feminist Literature and I wanted to throw out a few of my favs for everyone else, just in case it roused any interest.
-W. E. Ray
That's cool.
You like Angela Carter at all? She's one of my favorites.
I'm not the biggest fan of Star Wars, but I'm going to defend the Padme/Lei thing. Watch the movies in numerical order. Padme becomes weaker and weaker as time goes on. She breaks under the pressure and is a victim. Then her daughter comes in. Lei is what Padme was not: a strong female lead who does NOT crack.
The interesting thing about this is the time difference between when the two series were made.
|
|
I'd bet money that if you all got the perfect female character who never fails, never needs to be rescued, if you got your female Doc Savage who can do everything better than everyone else, you'd find fault with that to.
So you haven't read any of this thread, which is *chock-full* of people describing their favorite female characters?
The 'perfect woman' would be a Mary-Sue, and they're just every bit as bad as awful portrayals of woman as they imply that the only way a woman could be heroic is if she was utterly unrealistic.
Buffy, mentioned by several people on this thread, nothing at all like what you've described. Runs away from her duty. Makes mistakes. Breaks down. Occasionally even needs to be rescued (or even ressurected!). But she's totally a hero, who comes back at the end of the day, doesn't give up, accepts the bruises and the heartache and wins the day.
You've clearly paid no attention to the great numbers of heroic *and yet human and flawed* female characters listed in this thread by many people, which means that you are arguing with yourself.
Let us know who wins.
|
|
But the weakest female in the Star Wars movies is inarguably baby Anakin.
And that's what's kind of fun about modern cinema, the gender role subversion. We get to see the exact opposite. Buffy is the 'action hero.' Xander is the cringing guy clutching a man-purse behind her, and Giles is her often-knocked-out and sometimes-captured 'emotional support.' Buffy is Will Ryker (although Faith does the manly swagger better) and Giles & Xander are playing Dr. Crusher and Deanna Troi! Even in emotional relationships, Buffy and Faith and Anya and Cordelia all play 'male' roles, sometimes love 'em and leave 'em, sometimes 'wham bam, thank ya Xan,' sometimes so obviously 'wearing the pants' in a relationship that it's the male who is coming across as wanting more emotional connection and that 'sex should mean something more than that.' Even in the Spike / Buffy relationship, *he's* the one who wants an emotional connection and for their relationship to mean something, and she just wants to use him to 'feel something' and for him to go away when she's gotten what she needs from him.
We get to see Ripley dragging a wounded Hicks to safety. We get to see Sarah Conner fighting on after the military dude from the future dies. We get to see Vasquez deride Gorman for being a chickenshit as they die.
It's not an awful time to be alive, if you want to see some balanced, or even *reversed* gender presentations. One day, perhaps the notion of 'male roles' or 'female roles' will be as rare as hen's teeth.
Kahlan, the Mother Confessor, author Terry Goodkind. Beautiful, smart, powerful, gets rescued and does the rescuing. Has awesome power, loses it, reveals other strengths.
SciFi - Storm. My female elf druid mimics her when opportunity presents.
Ripley from Aliens didn't do it for me. She was tough and competent but looked pissed off a lot. Guess I would be too in those circumstances.
|
|
Illyana Rasputin from The New Mutants.
...
She is making a big comeback in the X-Comics...and for good rason.
Thank goodness, maybe you can explain what the hell is going on there.
Or, in Japanese storytelling, the good-girl type who wont/cant do anything and just stand around with their arms across their chest like they are permanently praying.
Oh God. And the stammering indecisive JRPG love interest...
If only Troy McClure's book "Get Confident, Stupid!" were actually in print in those universes.
|
|
So you haven't read any of this thread, which is *chock-full* of people describing their favorite female characters?
I didn't mean to imply that nobody has female characters they like, what I meant is that if you think Princess Leia is a poor representation of women, then you're being insanely over-demanding, and nothing will satisfy you except ridiculous power fantasy. Princess Leia is one of the most challenging and provocative women characters in the history of the genre, and when you look at the character in the grand context of the history and development of fantasy and sci-fi (and Star Wars truly straddles the gap between the two), she is an amazing aversion of Captured Princess archetype. She doesn't quail in the face of Darth Vader and Grand Moff Tarkin, and comports herself liek the finest of kings and statesmen. When her hapless rescuers show up, she takes over their rescue plan and their team. Han asks "Who put her in charge?" The answer? She did.
Seriously, there are people in this thread who are counting it against Leia as a character that she is clever enough to take advantage of an unplanned distraction, strong enough both physically and emotionally to strangle a creature that outmasses her by several thousand pounds and could easily rip her head off if it grabbed her, and then make good her own escape. This is something they are counting as proof that Leia is just another helpless female. Leia, the Self-Rescuing Princess, reduced to the very stereotype she is a complete aversion of.
That boggles the mind.
I can understand why people might not like Padme -- I mean, she exists to be a cautionary tale, and was written by George Lucas who is a better plotter than scener. So badly written scenes combined with a character basically doomed for plot continuity to make nothing but bad decisions, adds up to a generally unlikable character.
But claiming that Leia is a weak character at any point in the trilogy is just ridiculous.
The 'perfect woman' would be a Mary-Sue, and they're just every bit as bad as awful portrayals of woman as they imply that the only way a woman could be heroic is if she was utterly unrealistic.
Exactly my point.
Buffy, mentioned by several people on this thread, nothing at all like what you've described. Runs away from her duty. Makes mistakes. Breaks down. Occasionally even needs to be rescued (or even ressurected!). But she's totally a hero, who comes back at the end of the day, doesn't give up, accepts the bruises and the heartache and wins the day.
Back when I used to run a forum dedicated to feminist film critique, Buffy was a regular topic of discussion. There were many "feminists" (they identified as such, I preferred to call them "crazy wingnuts") who thought that Buffy was anti-feminist, and completely failed as an example of a positive female character. In fact, one of the reason I gave up moderating that forum was because I got tired of defending Joss Whedon from the near-constant accusations of being an absolute misogynist.
Seriously, some people cannot be satisfied by anything short of ludicrous power fantasy, and there really isn't a market for such thing. I'm really tired of listening to them with their skewed arguments and constant griping.