Spellcaster DCs

[LivingTriskele]

I appologize if this has been brought up already:

It's always bothered me that 2 spellcasters of the same class, with the same Ability scores, casting the same spells-- but at different levels-- have the same DC. 10 + Spell level + applicable Ability score modifier. Why doesn't class-level come into play? It seems to me that a wizard at 10th-level, casting a first-level spell, should have a better DC than a similar wizard of 1st-level casting the same spell.

I'm not sure what the best way to fix this is. Just throwing it out there...

[Paris Crenshaw]

I wrestled with this problem several years ago. I came up with the following option, but never got to playtest it:

Paris Crenshaw wrote:

In Starspeaker, my homebrew setting from several years ago, the saving throw against a spell is affected by the level of the spellcaster. As a spellcaster increases his knowledge of the art, he should gain more insight into the best way to cast his spells on others. A 1st-Level spell cast by a 20th-Level cleric is more difficult to resist than the same spell cast by a 1st-Level cleric. Additionally, as spells become more difficult to cast, they also become a bit more difficult to inflict on others. As such, the relative DC number decreases compared to lower-level spells.

A caster’s saving throw is determine by DC = 10 + Caster Level – Spell Level + caster’s bonus for the relevant ability. For example, a 5th-Level Sorcerer (Cha 13) casting a 3rd-Level Spell has a saving throw DC = 10 + 5 – 3 + 1 = 13. This number is lower (for a 5th-Level Sorcerer) than that derived from the formula on page 150 of the Player’s Handbook (DC 14). However, a 1st-Level spell cast by the same Sorcerer would have a save DC 15, whereas the Player’s Handbook formula would result in a save DC 12.

Initially, this change of rules sacrifices some of the deadliness of higher level spells until the caster reaches slightly higher levels. A Wizard casting a 9th-Level spell, say Power Word, Kill, will have a minimum DC 22 (10 + 17th Level – 9th Spell Level + 4 Int Bonus), which is still a pretty high number for lower level characters to beat. As that wizard grows in power to 20th Level, his DC rises to 25. According to the old rules, his DC would always have been 23, regardless of whether the wizard had just learned to cast 9th-Level spells or he had been casting them for years.

This rule obviously makes it harder for characters to fight against spellcasters of much higher level than themselves. However, it provides a means of adjudicating the expertise a higher-level caster will develop with lower-level spells over time. After all, at 17th Level the same wizard caster of Power Word, Kill above will have a better chance of successfully using the 5th-Level spell Dominate Person (DC 26) than he had at 9th-Level (DC 18 = 10 + 9 – 5 + 4).

I'm not the best at writing new rules, so this is definitely open for critique.

[Quandary]

Yeah, there was a big thread about this just a bit ago :-)
Probably one of the SIMPLEST way to address this (and least problematic to system balance) is to use Spell Points (OGL) and give every spellcaster the Heighten Spell feat for free (Heighten Spell lets you cast a lower level spell as a higher level spell, with the higher DC). This basically gives the caster the choice of casting all their spells at their highest DC/Spell Level, or 'economizing' and be able to cast more spells (or in between). I like Spell Points because just raising the DCs for lower level spells seems to be raising the overall power of caster classes without any tradebacks, while Spell Points mean everything still balances out.

Spell Points as written (in the link) gives all casters spontaneous casting, but it would be elementary to still require memorization for non-Sorcerors, while allowing the rest of the flexibility of Spell Points. Points also make level-scaling damage spells like Fireball more expensive relatively, but I think it's a good balance... And Evoker Specialists have effective-caster level-boosting Specialization/ Focus Feats to counteract for that effect.

I'll be interested to see if Paizo put Spell Points into Pathfinder in some manner, even as an 'alternate rule'.

[Querente]

You can do it like special class abilities DC.
Instead of relying on the spell level, you take half-level of your character.

Spell DC = 10+Half your level+relevant stat.

Then spell level has no importance anymore though, but the same spell cast by different level casters have different DC and different damage values (assuming the spell scales).

Just wondering if you should count only caster-levels or all class levels for this.

[Jason Sonia]

LivingTriskele wrote:

I appologize if this has been brought up already:

It's always bothered me that 2 spellcasters of the same class, with the same Ability scores, casting the same spells-- but at different levels-- have the same DC. 10 + Spell level + applicable Ability score modifier. Why doesn't class-level come into play? It seems to me that a wizard at 10th-level, casting a first-level spell, should have a better DC than a similar wizard of 1st-level casting the same spell.

I'm not sure what the best way to fix this is. Just throwing it out there...

Have a look at my thread over here.

I think, at the end of the discussion, we worked out that 10 (or 11) + Ability modifier + spell level + 1/2 caster level was way too powerful and that 10 + 1/2 caster level + ability level left something to be desired.

Personally, I'm leaning more towards 10 + ability modifier + 1/5 caster level + spell level; Basically granting a +1 to DC at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th.

Two casters with equal ability scores and gear casting the same level spell would show a small difference based on level. The DC, for instance, for a 10th level caster would be +2 higher than a 1st level based on level alone. If two points were dropped into a relevant ability modifier, you would see another +1.

It's not much, but it scales.

Cheers,
Jaye

[Biggus]

Querente: I'd definitely say caster level. I don't like the idea that a Sorcerer 1/ Barbarian 19 has the same DC for all his spells (if his ability modifier is the same) as a Sorcerer 20 does.

Jason: I don't think giving casters a +4 to save DCs by level 20 is a good idea. Save DCs at high levels are high enough already; there's at least one thread about it on this board (called "High level play... first step"). Briefly, the argument is that a caster with Greater Spell Focus and a maxed-out ability modifier can have save DCs of over 30 by level 20, which if it targets your bad save is very likely instant death if the spell is save-or-die. While I feel that this "problem" is currently not nearly as bad is many people make it out to be (for lengthy reasons I won't repeat here), I'm pretty sure adding +4 to the maximum really would unbalance things (DC37 save-or-die, anyone?).

My suggestion is:

10 + 1/4 caster level + 1/2 spell level + ability modifier

Special rounding rule if using this method; fractions up to and including 1/2 are rounded down, fractions over 1/2 are rounded up.

This has several advantages:

1) The maximum save DC at each level is exactly the same as in 3.5 for all classes except Bards (who get +1 at levels 9 and 11-18 and +2 at levels 19-20; since a Bards max DC was previously 3 lower than a full casters and is much less likely to be maxed-out, this shouldn't be a game-breaker).

2) The power of full casters is not greatly increased, as it would be using +1/2 caster level (because all their low-level spells would suddenly become a LOT more deadly). A 1st-level spell cast by a 20th-level caster has a DC of 15 + ability modifier under my system compared to 20 + ability modifier using the + 1/2 caster level version, lifting it from useless to useful, rather than from useless to deadly.

3) Both caster level and spell level affect the save DC.

Thoughts?

[Biggus]

PS I should have added to the text of the rounding rule; add bonuses from caster level and spell level together before rounding off.

[LazarX]

Biggus wrote:

Querente: I'd definitely say caster level. I don't like the idea that a Sorcerer 1/ Barbarian 19 has the same DC for all his spells (if his ability modifier is the same) as a Sorcerer 20 does.

Only as far as 1st level spells go. What's the 1st level Sorc's dc for his 5th level spells? Not only that the 20th level sorcerer probably has a much higher charisma and most people who only dip one level of sorcerer arent' doing it for charm person or the damage spells.

[Chris Mortika]

(waves)

I'll admit to liking the system as written. Spell Resistance already factors a cater's level into the equation; powerful mages know hot to cast magic that punches through spell-resistant targets.

The DC for the save seems a different thing to me. A Sleep spell is a coherent magical effect that takes place under certain circumstances. The wizard makes those circumstances happen, and, Bob's-your-uncle, a "sleep" effect occurs.

Sleep is a simple effect, so even novices can cast it. A more powerful mage can cast it more frequently, under greater duress, at a greater distance and with a longer duration. But the native effect remains the same, and the difficulty of making the save doesn't change. Unless the caster decides to Heighten Spell, or has raised his relevant attribute during his adventures.

So a save difficulty strikes me as being tied to the spell effect, rather than the caster's power.

[Biggus]

LazarX wrote:

Not only that the 20th level sorcerer probably has a much higher charisma and most people who only dip one level of sorcerer arent' doing it for charm person or the damage spells.

Yeah, there are other things which affect save DC/ deadliness of spells. I wasn't seriously suggesting that a Sorcerer 1/ Barbarian 19 was as deadly a caster as a Sorcerer 20; it was just an example to make the point that I don't think save DCs should be based on character level. If you look at save DCs for other class features, they're always based on class level rather than character level, and I don't see any reason spells should be different.

LazarX wrote:

Only as far as 1st level spells go. What's the 1st level Sorc's dc for his 5th level spells?

You're being facetious here, right?

@Chris Mortika: I'm not certain whether the system needs to change or not. Most spellcasters I've seen use their higher-level spells more for attack and their lower-level spells more for buffs/ utility, so it's not like they've got tons of worthless spell slots. I was just trying to suggest a not-too-unbalancing way of doing it if people did want caster level factored into save DC.

[LazarX]

Level is factored into Save DC's indirectly. The higher level Sorcerer is using higher level spells and probably has a higher level casting stat both of which will up the DC.

[Biggus]

LazarX, I think we've misunderstood each other. My first post replying to Querente was intended to mean: "IF level is to be directly factored into spell save DCs, it should be caster level, not character level". I think you read this as me saying "caster level should be directly factored into save DC" and your reply meant "no it shouldn't". Which I then misunderstood, thinking that you were saying "no, it should be character level not caster level" and replied accordingly. You then reiterated your position that there was no need for caster level to factor directly into save DC, still thinking that I was arguing that it should.

Does this make sense, or have I misunderstood you again?

[LazarX]

The point that I was trying to make is that class levels do come into play indirectly, the higher level caster will have a higher level casting stat and will be frequently casting higher level spells. In addition to having magic items and feats that might change the picture as well.

I don't think we need to see a new mechanic which ups the Spell DCs any more from where they are now, and if the present mechanic serves, why change it for something more complicated?

[Majuba]

Biggus wrote:

My suggestion is:

10 + 1/4 caster level + 1/2 spell level + ability modifier

1) The maximum save DC at each level is exactly the same as in 3.5 for all classes except Bards.

I must say, this is a absolutely delightful compromise solution. I do think the rounding issue is unfortunate, and it's too complicated for an official rule, but personally I like it a lot.

It doesn't have the "Single DC" benefit of the pure caster level based ones, but I may have to consider this. At least perhaps as a "Brush up on the Basics" feat that grants this over normal spellcasting.

[Biggus]

Majuba, I think introducing this as a feat rather than a standard rule is a brilliant idea. That way casters who want to get more use out of their lower-level spells can do so, but they have to pay for it. Those happy to use lower-levels slots for non-offensive purposes can use the feat for something else.

BTW, I didn't think the rounding rule was that complicated, all you do is;

1) Add up the fractions

2) If the total is 1/4 or 1/2, round down. If it's 3/4, round up.

But then, I am an unashamed mathmophile ;)

[Frank Timar]

What I do not understand is why Spell DCs for Casters has a different mechanic then everywhere else. The Monk Stunning fist for example is 10 +1/2 Class level+Ability Modifier. The Spell Like abilities of monsters follow this same formula. It does not matter for these spell like abilities whether the ability is similar to a first level spell or an 8th level spell.

If the objective in Pathfinder is to simplify mechanics, as seen in the clean up of Bullrush/Grappeling/Disarm... then why stick with this mechanic?

Just my 2 bits.