While I have a framework, I did end up deciding to convert just slightly ahead also. With pc deaths and decisions its always good to be prepared but not TOO prepared as to have work thats wasted, and I dont want to completely railroad them. :P
So my initial planning has the tiers broken up as follows:
- Heroic - There is no Honor - Here there be Monsters
- Paragon - Tides of Dread - Serpents of Scuttttlecove
- Epic - Into the Maw - Prince of Demons
So what sort of level do you think the party should be starting the Lightless Depths?
To me the end of Tides of Dread is definitely the start of Paragon. This is where my group have played up to in 3rd Ed and I'm now planning on switching to 4th Ed.
They were 11th level (in 3rd), so I was initially thinking 16th (in 4th), but that might be a little high.
Have you considered what levels for which adventures, because if you have I'm only starting my conversion work from about halfway through, so I'll be happy to share anything. But obviously my work would be more useful if it matched peoples expectations. No point in me doing Lightless Depths as a 16th level adventure if people think it should be for 12th level characters.
As it is Troylodytes which seem to be one of the main opponents in this are poorly suited for Paragon Tier adventures.
So what sort of level do you think the party should be starting the Lightless Depths?
Well if I were to follow my 2 1/2 level per adventure idea at the end of Lightless Depths they would indeed be 16th. However if you feel that seems too high then 13-14th should work fine since your converting on your own mostly till others get there :P
To me the end of Tides of Dread is definitely the start of Paragon. This is where my group have played up to in 3rd Ed and I'm now planning on switching to 4th Ed.
They were 11th level (in 3rd), so I was initially thinking 16th (in 4th), but that might be a little high.
See I felt HtbM was the last full heroic adventure because the pcs are still reliant on a boat for travel and have to feel fear in that adventure for it to work right (characters not players fear :P) and honestly the first attack on farshore in the following adventure is where i fully see the heroic tier ending as the pcs become saviors of a colony against the oncoming baddies
Have you considered what levels for which adventures, because if you have I'm only starting my conversion work from about halfway through, so I'll be happy to share anything. But obviously my work would be more useful if it matched peoples expectations. No point in me doing Lightless Depths as a 16th level adventure if people think it should be for 12th level characters.
Again this is per individual really, as some or most DMs Ive seen converting are going in at different levels and at different points in the adventure. So go with what suits you as a DM and people can still use it as a baseline so itll be usable.
As it is Troylodytes which seem to be one of the main opponents in this are poorly suited for Paragon Tier adventures.
I disagree in the sense that the design idea of levels have changed in editions. In 3e if you wanted a bad mother*shut your mouth* trog you took the base and made him 10 levels of pc class higher or what have you. in 4e the design concept is that the individual monsters are all as bad as needed for the game/story, and in my opinion the trogs can and are just as much as a paragon threat as drow and grimlocks and all the other underdark loving baddies in the game. Just because the egg sucker tribe is more like kobolds in stats, doesnt mean the razor claw tribe arent more like drow or dragonborn in threat. Just use some other humanoids for your stat blocks and reskin them as trogs (change the racial abils of course) and youll be shocked how your players will just see tough trogs instead of drow poisoners or whatever. I used to do this in 2e and 3e all the time due to players who memorized the MM anyway, so since its easier in 4e anyway its pretty effective. But thats my take.
Oh yeaalso the trogs are just minions anyway, cultists and such.
Yeah, I'm definitely planning on having Here There Be Monsters be 10th level, then Tides of Dread is 11-12th level, maybe up to 13th by the end.
So currently, I plan on having The Lightless Depths start with 13th level PC's. I think the trogs will still work, leveled up and perhaps some extra critters thrown in here and there. The Kopru may well be replaced - I've got a grand idea to place a bunch more Fey creatures into / under the Isle, so The Lightless Depths and/or City of Broken Idols is where I'm going to need to add in a bunch of Firbolgs, Fomorians, Cyclops etc. I plan on having The Serpents of Scuttlecove start at level 19, so there should be enough room to expand the main adventures on the Isle.
So far I've only done detailed work on The Sea Wyvern's Wake and Here There Be Monsters - I can post my conversion notes if anyone's interested. Right now, the guys are about to hit the storms at the end of The Sea Wyvern's Wake...
Yeah, I'm definitely planning on having Here There Be Monsters be 10th level, then Tides of Dread is 11-12th level, maybe up to 13th by the end.
So currently, I plan on having The Lightless Depths start with 13th level PC's. I think the trogs will still work, leveled up and perhaps some extra critters thrown in here and there. The Kopru may well be replaced - I've got a grand idea to place a bunch more Fey creatures into / under the Isle, so The Lightless Depths and/or City of Broken Idols is where I'm going to need to add in a bunch of Firbolgs, Fomorians, Cyclops etc. I plan on having The Serpents of Scuttlecove start at level 19, so there should be enough room to expand the main adventures on the Isle.
So far I've only done detailed work on The Sea Wyvern's Wake and Here There Be Monsters - I can post my conversion notes if anyone's interested. Right now, the guys are about to hit the storms at the end of The Sea Wyvern's Wake...
I like replacing the Kopru with formorians and cyclopses and all that. No minis for them anyway :P
The Kopru may well be replaced - I've got a grand idea to place a bunch more Fey creatures into / under the Isle, so The Lightless Depths and/or City of Broken Idols is where I'm going to need to add in a bunch of Firbolgs, Fomorians, Cyclops etc.
The Kopru did strike me as odd creatures to be featured in the Lightless Depths since they are amphibious the lack of water seems to be neither here nore there for their success. I'd be tempted to replace them with some air breathing race.
The Kopru may well be replaced - I've got a grand idea to place a bunch more Fey creatures into / under the Isle, so The Lightless Depths and/or City of Broken Idols is where I'm going to need to add in a bunch of Firbolgs, Fomorians, Cyclops etc.The Kopru did strike me as odd creatures to be featured in the Lightless Depths since they are amphibious the lack of water seems to be neither here nore there for their success. I'd be tempted to replace them with some air breathing race.
Well imo I think the Kopru are there simply due to their involvement in X1 the Isle of dread original adventure.
Yeah, it seems like they were jammed in there for historical reasons, but it feels kind of wrong the way the adventure is designed.
I like the way they were used in the adventure from Dungeon 114, Torrents of Dread, that's a bit more true to the spirit of X1 an makes more sense (it's a fun little adventure, that one, I ran it as a stand-alone one-off a couple of years ago).
Yeah, it seems like they were jammed in there for historical reasons, but it feels kind of wrong the way the adventure is designed.
I like the way they were used in the adventure from Dungeon 114, Torrents of Dread, that's a bit more true to the spirit of X1 an makes more sense (it's a fun little adventure, that one, I ran it as a stand-alone one-off a couple of years ago).
Yea plus
As a side note someone made a kopru mini by using the top half of the half-illithid lizardfolk and some greenstuff or something, and I was thinking maybe using the top half plus a darkmantle or something for the tentacle look... would need paintings though :P
Good ideas thanks - I especially like the idea of half-illithid-half-trog instead of kopru, I'm sure I could whip up a small variant on the illithid that fits the bill.
Just working through some encounters for Lightless Depths, not my group has six players so these are 13th level Encounters for a party of 6.
Not done Emraag yet.
First Encounter moved out to the landing stage and caves
2 Scytheclaw Drake
1 Troglodyte Deepscourge
6 Troglodyte Warrior
3 Troglodyte Bruiser
All levelled up to be 12 level. Not sorted out the Vial Rigidity yet, but I'm thinking any bite or claw attack that bloodies a player they will contract the disease.
Replaced the single Black Pudding with an encounter with a Carpet of Flesh (Dungeon 373) and three Kuo-toa Harpooners. the Harpooners can drag people onto the carpet from a greater range. Not sure if they will actually be Kuo-toa or reskinned to some other race.
Any feedback? I'm using Google Docs so I can invite folks to see the files I'm working on if you like.
Nice ideas, thanks.
Personally, I'd vary the levels of the trogs a bit though, e.g. make the leader at least 14th level, the rest are probably OK at 12th or even some at a lower level. I'm using Scytheclaw Drakes for Terror Birds in my game (same mechanics, they just look like birds and use a bite instead of a claw), but it's a good addition.
The Carpet of Flesh idea is good; for extra spice use support critters that benefit from the Carpet's Aura (i.e. can target Will), e.g. a Grell Philosopher (MM), some Ghost Legionnaires (MM2), or something similar which still somehow suits the adventure's themes.
The Carpet of Flesh idea is good; for extra spice use support critters that benefit from the Carpet's Aura (i.e. can target Will), e.g. a Grell Philosopher (MM), some Ghost Legionnaires (MM2), or something similar which still somehow suits the adventure's themes.
Thinking of using the Ghost Legionaries as part of a sunken city in an encounter on the way to the Glutton.
I've switched out the Harpooners for a pair of Wailing Ghost (Banshee) (previous victims) and a Blightborn Troglodyte (levelled to 13) as a necromancer that is controlling the group.
Here's the Skill Challenge I've worked out for the PCs meeting Emraag.
Level 14 Challenge: Complexity 3 = 8 success before 3 failures. XP 3,000 (plus quest bonus)
The characters need to persuade the Dragon Turtle to not attack shipping.
Primary Skills
Diplomacy (DC 18 or 23): If the heroes present the money and goods Lavinia gave them the DC 18 otherwise DC 23. If they refer to the money as a "tribute" they gain a +2 bonus to Diplomacy checks until they fail one. Heroes can earn four successes this way.
Intimidate (DC 23): Remarkably Intimidate can work on Emraag, he is old and fearful that Baaragrauth wishes to expand his territory. If the PCs can convince Emraag that they have killed one of the other Infamous Seven (having the skull of Temauhti-tecuani along lowers the test to DC 18), and could deal with Baaragauth. Emraag will claim Baaragruath is beneath his attention, if they players imply that he is scared of the Dragon Eel they automatically fail this check. The PCs can earn up to four success this way.
Heal (DC 18 or 23): Unlocked via Perception check. Something appears to be irritating Emraag during your meeting treating this irritation improves his attitude, four success can be gained this way.
Secondary Skills
Insight (DC 18): Reveals Emraag responds well to flattery, but poorly if it is implied he is weak, and that he responds better to Diplomacy than Intimidation. A second successful check reveals that something appears to be bothering him as he rubs his armoured scales against a rocky outcrop throughout the negociations (the Perception check DC drops to 18).
Bluff (DC 18): The PCs can try to convince a Emraag that they worship him like a God. This strategy can backfire if Emraag sees through their ruse. Each time they succeed in a Bluff check, they gain a cumulative +2 bonus on all other checks in this skill challenge. The first time the PCs fail a Bluff check, they can no longer use this skill in the challenge and the bonus they gained (if any) turns into a penalty.
Perception (DC 23 or 18): Notice a fungal growth between it's armoured plates, opening Heal as a Primary skill.
Nature (DC 18): Helps identify the fungus and a effective treatment lowering the Heal checks to DC 18.
History (DC 23 or DC 18 if PC has spent an extensive amount of time with the Olman): Knowledge of the creatures history gives a +2 bonus to Diplomacy or Intimidate checks.
Aid Another
The characters can aid each other as normal on Secondary skill checks during this skill challenge. However Emraag grows weary of having several inferior creatures talking to him directly. Each time a PC attempts to aid on a Diplomacy or Intimidate check, the DC needed to aid increases by 2. In addition, a failed aid another attempt grants the target PC a -4 penalty to his next check. This penalty is cumulative. It is impossible to use Aid other with the Heal check asEmraag will not allow more than one person close to him at a time.
Alternately A Tough Solo encounter if the PCs fail at or don't attempt conversation.
What do your 4E rhagodessa's stats look like?
Here is my Blackfang Rhagodessa (level 12 Skirmisher) I've create for Lightless Depths. You could do something similar for earlier adventures.
I've also done a baby swarm of Rhagodessa as well.
Yeah, it seems like they were jammed in there for historical reasons, but it feels kind of wrong the way the adventure is designed.
Been looking at coverting them to 4th Ed, but decided it wasn't worth the effort the more I look at it the more I wonder why they are in the adventure at all. Must be just for historical reason as already suggested.
Still not sure not to what to replace them with...
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Im cross posting this from the section on 4e.
Theres some good stuff on this thread.Particularly by Stewart Perkins.Using some of this material I decided to start a 4e conversion blog for STAP.
My blog was inspired by Scott Betts 4e Rise of the Runelords Tales from the Rusty Dragon Blog.
Theres not much content there yet, but I hope to fix that soon. I look forward to any comments or critisims anyone may have about my posts or conversions.
You can find my blog The Chronicles of Abysm here.
Im cross posting this from the section on 4e.
Theres some good stuff on this thread.Particularly by Stewart Perkins.Using some of this material I decided to start a 4e conversion blog for STAP.
My blog was inspired by Scott Betts 4e Rise of the Runelords Tales from the Rusty Dragon Blog.
Theres not much content there yet, but I hope to fix that soon. I look forward to any comments or critisims anyone may have about my posts or conversions.
You can find my blog The Chronicles of Abysm here.
Cool, Good luck. I hope you eventually get a chance to make a compiled documents similar to the ones Scott makes when he finishes a section. Those really show off the conversions and make running the adventure for anyone that wants to a snap. Not that there is anything wrong with a Blog, its a great way to do the adventure in chunks but a good looking final product is a good looking final product after all.
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Cool, Good luck. I hope you eventually get a chance to make a compiled documents similar to the ones Scott makes when he finishes a section. Those really show off the conversions and make running the adventure for anyone that wants to a snap. Not that there is anything wrong with a Blog, its a great way to do the adventure in chunks but a good looking final product is a good looking final product after all.Im cross posting this from the section on 4e.
Theres some good stuff on this thread.Particularly by Stewart Perkins.Using some of this material I decided to start a 4e conversion blog for STAP.
My blog was inspired by Scott Betts 4e Rise of the Runelords Tales from the Rusty Dragon Blog.
Theres not much content there yet, but I hope to fix that soon. I look forward to any comments or critisims anyone may have about my posts or conversions.
You can find my blog The Chronicles of Abysm here.
I hadnt considered that, but it stands to reason that a compiled document would be helpful to everyone who decides that they want to use the material for their own game.
You can find my blog The Chronicles of Abysm here.
Thanks, always interesting to see other people's ideas, I've added it to my watch list!
My original thought was also to stick with Greyhawk as a 4e setting, as that's been the setting I've used when I DM ever since I was playing AD&D from the mid-80's (see below for more of my Greyhawk ideas). However, a couple of things conspired to change my mind... One, the amount of change I thought I'd have to do to the campaign setting in order to make it fit with 4E (similar to the Forgotten Realms, which I know a friend of mine, a Realms fan, hated). Two, we cut short our last campaign not long after 4e launched, and general continuity of players who knew Greyhawk (mostly through my campaigns) was getting more and more limited, so for continuity of setting, it's pretty much only me now who would get the most out of using Greyhawk (I love having little tie-ins over time, across campaigns, but you need the same players around to make it pay off). Previously I'd run a home-brew campaign in Greyhawk under 3.x, then Age of Worms all the way through (1st to about 23rd level, including some add-ons), then I ran "Greyhawk Ruins" (the 3.5 book) as a kind of "one-off", with mostly new players. Savage Tide doesn't actually have much of a tie-in to anything else I'd run - the tie-in to Age of Worms is pretty weak (a party to celebrate an event half a world away? bah), I probably would have dropped that even if I had kept Greyhawk as the setting. I liked Eberron because I thought the flavour of the setting was a pretty good fit to the flavour of STAP (although I'm adding a bit more direct tie-ins, like adding some interest in the Isle from a couple of the Dragonmarked Houses), and as an "officially supported" campaign setting, we're just now starting to see a lot more published material which helps me as DM, and it helps inspire the players (most of them are subscribers to DDI, so they get character builder updates, read dragon mag, etc). My only concern in using Eberron was that, having been a player in the setting previously, I never really got into it (althogh that was probably a little bit due to the DM, and somewhat due to the style of the official adventures).
Anyway... When I was planning on using Greyhawk as the STAP setting, I was first planning on running an extension to the Greyhawk Ruins game I'd just run, as a lead-in to a new 4E campaign. When the PC's exited the castle, having put down the false Igwilv's plans, they were to find that the Old One (Iuz) had decided to seize the moment and get his revenge on Greyhawk City once and for all, pretty much as soon as he was released from stasis (in my game, I had the false Igwilv actually laying siege to the city while the PC's were mostly in the dungeons under the castle, as she took over command of Iuz' troops while he was captured, as the PC's never actually stopped the troops from surfacing). So the PC's would have an opportunity to help fend off the armies of Iuz as they came at the Free City from all sides including on flying castles and magical boats across the Nyr Dyv. People like Bigby would help defend the city, but Iuz managed to awaken an uber-Tarrasque from its slumber in the lake of unknwown depths (Nyr Dyv), which would keep the biggest-hitting NPC's busy for a bit. Mordenkainen would, of course, actually be on Iuz' side, or at least looking to destabalise the area in favour of Evil, figuring that the balance of the Central Flanaess was tilting too much in favour of Good since the Greyhawk Wars ended, so he wouldn't help defend the city. Based on the PC's actions, I figured that either Greyhawk City would be completely taken over by Iuz, or at least heavily crippled before the Old One retreated ("victory" would consist of the PC's helping keep the city independent, but no matter what, it would be put in a bad way). I've lost/deleted my notes on the exact plans, but from memory I think I actually intended a magical effect, similar to the Spell-Plague of FR, hitting the central Flanaess, as part of the end of Iuz's attacks - something no-one planned but it somehow got unleashed due to a combo of Iuz, the uber-Tarrasque, epic-level spells, and Mordenkainen's meddling, all in the one area of the Material Plane. So a planar rift, of sorts, would demolish a lot of the surrounding lands, suck in Dragonborn, etc. Not the momentous earth-shattering change as FR got, but kind of similar in a more localised way, helping explain all the changes that 4E brings.
But yeah, the main thing that changed my mind was the level of change I'd have had to make to Greyhawk in order to run it. And the fact that STAP takes place in areas where the players had never explored before - so it could have been set anywhere, really - the main tie-ins (e.g. Igwilv) were so far down the track it wasn't worth considering as a factor in the decision. And the fact that, once the PC's killed the false Igwilv, we were ready to move on to a new campaign rather than continue that one - I really only liked my idea on changing Greyhawk if I could do it "on camera" i.e. as part of something the PC's were a part of, rather than just tell them all "lots of stuff happened in the last few years... welcome to a new Greyhawk!" At that stage, with 4E having just launched, half-orcs, druids etc were not in 4e, so now days it's easier to convert Greyhawk to 4e than it was for me at the beginning. For example, Eladrin are simply one branch of GH Elves (the Gray Elves, IIRC), with the other GH elves (the High Elves?, plus the Wild and Wood elves), all the woodland-type ones, being the standard 4E Elf.
So, for your plans to use Greyhawk as the setting for STAP, hopefully there's some food for thought above? Sorry I can't find the notes I wrote about it all, I did write some of it down when 4e came out, but have purged it since then to try and keep my campaign planning notes as clean as I can (which is hard, when you're keeping many ideas you may not use for quite some time yet).
On the plus side, given how far 4E has come now, compared to where it was when I was thinking of using it, you should find that there's not a lot of important things that are missing now - the players have pretty much all the important classes and races to choose from now, and ones that were niche or not really present at all in older Greyhawk editions can always be explained as you would in any setting - for example the world of Greyhawk doesn't need to suddenly be crawling with Dragonborn or Tieflings, a PC can always be something fairly unique or super-rare and still work (I had a player want to play an Ogre in my Age of Worms game - we started him off as a young teenager who thought he was a dwarf (his "parents" had adopted him from birth, not knowing he wasn't a dwarf); just prior to the start of the game, he got thrown out of the clan as some kind of freak due to his super-fast growth rate - it was only when he grew to Large size that it became fairly obvious to everyone (including the other PC's) that he wasn't an Ogre, but he still thought of himself as a Dwarf). As a DM, I think the conversion effort is probably reasonably similar between using Greyhawk vs using some other campaign setting - most of the conversion work is actually changing the encounters (fights, skill challenges etc), the work in changing the setting-specific stuff is pretty mild given how most of STAP is stand-alone stuff you can use in any setting (change a few names here and there, mostly), especially as I use the "re-skin" concept a lot ...
e.g. rather than try and re-create Olangru and his Barlgura as they exist in the 3.5 STAP, I just used a Neldrazu (abduction demon; MM2) for Olangru, added an Invoker template to make him an interesting Elite, then had 4 regular Barlgura as his brutish allies (so the only way they could abduct anyone was the "old fashioned" way via a grab and drag, although that actually worked out to be the way I finally got away with an NPC!) To the players, I just said the five demons all looked the same, i.e. they all look like Barlgura, it's just that one of them can teleport and do a few other spell-like powers. So yeah, there's plenty of monsters in all the 4E sources now, it's quite rare that I need to create my own monster from scratch, mostly I just pick something with the right role and right kinds of powers, then re-skin it to be what the STAP presents - I've only made a couple of solo-type foes myself so far, and even then I've mostly taken the powers from existing monsters and mashed them up (Sutolore the Lesser Varrangoin was based on an Inferno Bat with a bit of Red Dragon, but lower level; my Lemorian Golem is based on an Aspect of Demogorgon but also lower level and a construct).
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Cool Hastur!
You have some good ideas there. Your thoughts parallel a lot of mine in terms of issues about converting Greyhawk to 4e. I plan on addressing this issue in an upcoming blog post so I don’t want to go into to much detail now but here’s my thoughts as it stands now:
Concerning the STAP as you’ve stated isn’t strongly tied to Greyhawk, and more material is now available, which makes the conversions minimal for myself and actually encouraged me to go the distance and do the work and thus also allowed me to use more of the handouts and pictures (mostly the maps) from the magazines. As I see it there are three areas of concern that need to be addressed: Races, Deities, and the Planes. I was also thinking it would be cool to allow PC’s to have Dragonmarks or Spellscars (I’m not sure how different these two are from each other so it may be just one or the other).
I’ve been considering that the Spellplague was not an isolated incident and that it also affected Greyhawk through not to the extent that the FR was. Even if it was its not something that I would spend much time detailing. I was also considering advancing time 50 – 100 years but I’m not even sure if that’s needed.
Anyway stay tuned to my blog and I will discuss this topic more, as this is a many faceted topic.
FYI, my 4e Eberron STAP campaign is now getting near the end of "Tides of Dread", with the PC's just getting the last bits of preparation completed before the invasion of Farshore. If anyone's interested in any details, I'm happy to share here (or anywhere else - I haven't really found a better place to share!)
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FYI, my 4e Eberron STAP campaign is now getting near the end of "Tides of Dread", with the PC's just getting the last bits of preparation completed before the invasion of Farshore. If anyone's interested in any details, I'm happy to share here (or anywhere else - I haven't really found a better place to share!)
How you been doing Hastur? My conversion work took a breif hiatus for a few months but Im back to work on my conversion. Id love to hear the low down on your own STAP campaign!
It's going very well thank you, and thanks to everyone I've borrowed ideas from... Here's a few highlights from my game so far, in a bit of a random order...
My guys have just finished encountering the Trogs, which went pretty well, except maybe because I was a bit tired I was a bit sloppy in running a fight with some 12-14 opponents (B4, B5) and got a bit mixed up as to who was what kind of trog. But generally it was easy to plan out, using the latest version of the monster builder I just quickly edited up Trog Champions and Trog Scourges to level 11, and Blightborn and Chanter to level 13, then assembled a few encounter groups.
Prior to that, I made Emraag the Glutton a dragon eel (level 19 soldier), but the PC's simply bartered with him, somewhat fearful of fighting a huge dragon at "only" 13th level. However once they are higher level, they plan on locating his lair (e.g. locate object ritual on the treasure they gave him), and getting their tribute back (likely by killing him). For a fight, I always planned on adding his his Living Breath (also level 19), and about 4 Kuo-Toa Monitors. Note: if the PC's failed the skill challenge (barter), I planned on The Glutton fighting only until he was bloodied, at which point he'd call truce and reward the PC's with a tribute of his own (a magical ring) for their honour and skill. I think he'll be a fun opponent to fight, because his defenses are so high (the PC's will still probably only be about 15th level if they go back later), and the helpers I've added should add variety and extra firepower.
Earlier, my guys really enjoyed the whole Farshore and Isle of Dread piece - fighting off Slipknot Pete (and getting Lefty as a sort of cohort for the bugbear rogue PC), then preparing the colony for the Crimson Fleet invasion. As we only play once every 2 weeks, it was over a month of preparation and expectation, some of it done via email which worked well. The PC's were newly level 11, and I made a lot of pirates level 8, so they got to really flex their new powers and feel powerful, which is what the beginning of Paragon should be all about I think.
Around the island, I didn't worry about random encounters much except to sprinkle a few in either just before the "big fight", or just after.
For Zotzilla (level 12 solo), I used two different types of Fire Bats (level 10), one regular, one with a puff of smoke that the PC's hated. But my guys all had fire resistance, so it wasn't overly tough for them.
For Tonatiub the Couatl etc, I made the Giant Anaconda a Feyborn Constrictor (elite soldier 11), with 3 shambling mounds (brute 14) and made the illusion trap have Vicious Vipers at the bottom (obstacle 10). Tonatiub was a Couatl Star Serpent (elite controller 15), and if it became a fight (which it didn't for me), he could have summoned (as a minor action) 3 deva knights-errant (level 11 soldier) + 1 phoelarch warrior (elite skirmisher 12); I included blood rock as terrain. When made friendly, his feather gift functioned as a scroll of consult mystic sages ritual. Just as the PC's exited the little dungeon, they were set upon by a group of Scarlet Brotherhood Monks: a cleric (elite controller 12) with 6 monks (skirmisher 9), all of them custom-built. The players thought the monks would be tough, but alas they were mown down really easily (my poor init rolls didn't help, but I think I needed tham to be at least +2 levels each).
On the way back to their ship, just before they got there I had them encounter a pair of demented stegosaurus (bloodspike behemoths, with the relentless killer template applied). Skephilipika the Kopru was an adjusted mind flayer with a druid power (elite controller 12) and his elasmosaur companion a re-skinned shark (brute 10), I also added some "raised" creatures (dead crew were were now monsters under the Kopru's command, lurker 12, based on some plant creature).
Temauhti-Tecuani the T-Rex was based on the Fang Titan Drake, but level 16 and made a Solo. I gave him grab and fling powers, hoping to have him pick up a PC or two and throw them into the sticky tar (which burned and immobilised, save ends). He was wearing Gorilla Gloves and Swiftpad Boots. Alas, my dice were having a poor day and he was dispatched relatively easily. Mind you, I wasn't too worried about making too many of these missions overly challenging - the main event was meant to be the Crimson Fleet invasion, with role-play and some minor fights leading up to it.
The final invasion was fun - initially I had a Changeling (doppleganger) arrive, disguised as Vanthus, fly in on a "Hippogriff" (Vrock disguised with an illusion by the yuan-ti), flying a white flag to parley. My players definitely didn't expect that, and we had some fun discussions before the PC's knocked him out and captured him, reading the note I planted on him in case they just killed him first (the note said something like, "this is your last warning, let us enter your port peacefully or we will be forced to use strength of arms"). I managed to get my players to fire the first shots, at which point the pirates' superior firepower (including better range) from the boats led to the defenders retreating. Rather than have the pirates simply destroy the place with artillery fire, I had them park the boats near the shore and cover the approach of the ground troops. My players had already prepped their defenders to fight but withdraw when pressed, so it worked out really well...
The pirate ground troops were still only 8th level; vs 13th level PC's it was a slaughter, something like 20 pirates killed very quickly (hardly any were minions), but I set it up such that the pirates attacked multiple fronts so the PC's had to keep running around picking off important fights etc. I had warforged and House Cannith artificers manning the ships, but the PC's never tried to board one. The golems were cool - I had three flesh golems and a web golem - that fight was definitely tough and up to expectations.
The final fight was Vanthus (elite brute 18) and his bodyguard (lurker 18), with 3 Vrocks. Lavinia was there too - the PC's had just got back in time to see Vanthus arriving to get her. Alas, my PC's assassinated the bodyguard in about one round, and the Vrocks were a bit boring. In retrospect, I should have had some more pirates / warforged run into the fight at this stage, to keep the PC's on their toes. As it was, Vanthus managed to kill Lavinia fairly early on (she was run by a player, whose PC is her fiance), but Vanthus killed a bit easier than me or my players expected - the Vrocks are a bit of a lock-down foe, but don't really have enough damage output in my opinion (especially when my bodyguard was killed so early). Amazingly, we actually ran the whole Crimson Fleet invasion, some six fights plus role-play, in a single 5 hour session (I'd budgeted on it taking two 4-hour sessions).
Coming up, I have changed the Burning Pools' black pudding to be a Living Cloudkill (elite brute 19) with 3 previous victims (Wailing Ghost aka Banshee, controller 12), making the poison be Burning Vapor (obstacle 11), and also some Collapsing Ruins (terrain which attacks when you're shoved into it) for the monsters to push people into. The The Hanging Forest has a Roper Lasher (elite controller 16) and also 8 Aberrant Flingers (minion 13), with Razorvine (terrain) to move people into - on paper that's an easy fight, but I'm hoping it will still be fun to mess with the PC's.
The PC's will get through the trogs, living spell and ghosts, and roper all in one day, possibly even a random encounter. One thing I do find is that the players really like to have an "extended day", with lots of encounters before they need an extended rest, and at times that is hard to achieve. I've pre-planned two random encounters: a Destrachan Far Voice (artillery 15) with 3 Foulspawn Ragehulks (brute 15); a Bristle Spider (lurker 15) with (re-skinned) Lolth’s Brutal Swarms x 2 (soldier 17); each of these isn't overly tough, and is pretty simple for me to design and run, which is what I think a random encounter should be (save the major prep and complex fights for the set-pieces). From there, it's mostly role-play for a couple of days, with the main fight potentially being with 6 Hook Horrors (soldier 13) + 4 Fool's Breath Mycolid (artillery 11; google Fool's Breath Mycolid for the 9th level version recently posted somewhere). N'glothnoru makes use of illusion rituals (Hallucinatory Creature, Hallucinatory Item, Seeming), and is an aboleth overseer (elite controller 18) if it comes to combat.
Then there's the Rhadogessa just before they hit the underground city. I created my own stats as follows, for Blackfang Rhadogessa (created from scratch, using ideas from Ankheg and Umber Hulk) + Rhadogessa Swarms (a modified cockroach swarm). Here's the results:
3 x Blackfang Rhagodessa Level 15 Skirmisher
Large natural beast XP 1,200
Initiative +14 Senses Perception +9
HP 146; Bloodied 73
AC 29; Fortitude 28; Reflex 27; Will 26
Speed 6, climb 6 (spider climb)
m Pedipalps (at-will; standard)
Reach 2; +20 vs AC; 2d8 + 6 damage
M Grabbing Double Attack (at-will; standard)
The rhagodessa makes two pedipalp attacks. If both attacks hit the same target, the target is pulled adjacent and grabbed (until escape). A grabbed target takes ongoing 10 damage from the rhagodessa’s mandibles until it escapes. The rhagodessa cannot make any other claw attacks while grabbing a creature.
M Gnaw and Scuttle (at-will; minor)
Targets creature grabbed by the rhagodessa; +20 vs AC; 3d6 + 5 damage, and ongoing 10 damage (save ends). The rhagodessa then shifts 4 squares and pulls the target to space adjacent to its new location.
Claws Carry
A rhagodessa can move at normal speed while carrying a creature that is Medium or smaller.
Tearing Grip (immediate reaction when grabbed creature escapes)
The escaping creature takes ongoing 10 damage (save ends)
Alignment Unaligned Languages —
Str 23 (+13) Dex 20 (+12) Wis 14 (+9)
Con 17 (+10) Int 2 (+3) Cha 14 (+9)
3 x Rhagodessa Swarm Level 14 Skirmisher
Large natural beast XP 1,000
Initiative +15 Senses Perception +9; darkvision
Swarm Attack aura 1; the swarm makes a melee basic attack against each enemy that begins its turn within the aura.
HP 141; Bloodied 70
AC 28; Fortitude 25; Reflex 27; Will 22
Vulnerable 10 against close or area attacks
Speed 6, climb 6 (spider climb)
m Swarm of Pedipalps (at-will; standard)
+17 vs Reflex; 2d8 + 6 damage, & ongoing 10 dmg (save ends)
Scuttling Mass (at-will; move)
The swarm shifts 4 squares.
Alignment Unaligned Languages —
Skills Stealth +18
Str 20 (+12) Dex 23 (+13) Wis 14 (+9)
Con 21 (+12) Int 2 (+3) Cha 7 (+5)
Note: if you are going to use these as the basis for Heroic-tier monsters, you might want to drop the ongoing damage altogether as it's harder to get rid of for Heroic PC's, drop them to be Medium size, and change the Scuttle to shift 2. Also, I'm not sure how often I'll actually get to grab a PC - it might be better to use 4 Blackfang Rhagodessa and only 2 Swarms, to increase the chances of ripping one or more PC's to shreds relatively easily (something that's actually quite hard to do vs Paragon-tier PC's, I've found).
I haven't planned out the rest of The Lightless Depths yet, but will be doing so soon. Overall I'm keen to keep it on the smaller size, say only two levels of XP worth, and the same for the City of Broken Idols, so that they can enter Scuttlecove when around 17th level, maybe 18th max. That's because I can see a lot of interesting adventures to be had in Scuttlecove, and I also plan on adding a couple of side-trek mini-adventures before and/or after that too, involving some specific Eberron things such as Lady Vol and the Lord of Blades - potential allies of the Crimson Fleet and/or House Cannith, who the PC's must try and neutralise before they go after their primary target (Demogorgon).
The only other major plan I have is for the beginning of Into the Maw, where to get to The Maw, the PC’s must first gain entrance via the Khyber, which has a specific entry point they will be guided to - there's a place in Q’barra, which the black dragon Rhashaak guards, so I'll use that; it’s inland so the PC’s will have to sail up-river (which can be done). Mechanics-wise, I'll make it an Orium Dragon (story-wise, it's a black dragon corrupted by the Khyber). Example guardians would be some minor lizardfolk and/or dragonborn prior, but less obvious stuff nearer and/or with the Dragon, e.g. Couatl, undead (created by the dragon from the heroes he’s killed), Horrid Lion. I've still ot to properly read the Eberron Explorer's Handbook (pg 145-148) for more detail, as well as the ECG (150-151).
p.s. I'm loving the Monster Builder - I create my own document with 1-2 page "monster sheets" with just the combat stats and tactics, treasure etc for each fight. Ideally I use monsters exactly as published, perhaps adjusting up or down a couple of levels, and re-skin appearances if appropriate. Occasionally I create my own monsters, if there's nothing even close, but even these typically cut and paste powers from similar creatures. That makes my job relatively easy, and means I don't have to do much scribbling on the adventure itself - when a fight comes up, I just flip from my photocopy of the adventure to my monster sheets.
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Wow!
That sounds great! Excellent job on the campaign, it sounds like you and your group are having a great time.
Allot of what your talking about in terms of monsters, reskinning and the lowering or raising of levels is excatly what I'd liked to try to do as well.
In my Underdark campaign http://theheroesofhollowearth.wikidot.com/ I have been doing the same thineg you have and printing out all my monsters on one page. Everything is neat and organized.
Keep us informed how things progress!
In checking out the origins of the Rhagodessa (it was first published in the D&D Expert Set, I think; it's included in the wandering monster tables of the original Isle of Dread, X1), I found this:
http://www.pandius.com/rhagds4e.html
I like the "leap off the walls" power, but am sticking with my own version mainly because I prefer an "abduction" build, which meshes with how it was originally published.
I've done a conversion of The Lightless Depths. My party ran through it a few months ago. It's a pretty disappointing adventure being a straight dungeon crawl down to the city unfortunately.
This hasn't yet got the last few encounters on it, because the group advanced faster than I predicted so some was done on the fly.
Link to encounter list (Note this is for a party of SIX) - Lightless Depths
I replaced the Kopru with Shadar-Kai, it seemed logical if the Tear used the spirits of the ancestors to form the curtain that it touched with the Shadowfell. They had more to lose if the Tear is damaged as well. Never did the stats for Emraag the Glutton, unfortunately. I didn't bother with the Troglodyte disease since disease are barely a hiccup in 4E at Paragon level.
Creatures created for the adventure Giant Octopus, Blackfang Rhagodessa, Rhagodessa Minion (basically the normal ones they met in the first adventure, only now the PC's are Paragon Tier, so easy to squash), Rhagodessa Swarm
I've more detailed write ups of the earlier encounters which I'll post if people are interested.
You can follow our parties exploits here. Although I really should try and keep it more up to date.
Hey this is very cool, I'll probably get a bit of re-use out of the latter part, although just last night I told the guys the Lords of Dread were Kopru, so although the Shadar-Kai idea is good I'll leave it as Kopru. On the plus side for me, the players are freaked about going into a Kopru city, so have back-tracked to look for more info in Barbas.
Have you done a similar doc about the City of Broken Idols? I'd love to see that if you do...
In terms of my group, last session they had two major encounters:
The Burning Pools - Living Cloudkill (elite brute 19) with 3 previous victims: Wailing Ghost aka Banshee x 2 (controller 12), Battle Wight (elite soldier 16), and Burning Vapor (trap: obstacle 11). The acid pools were 5d10 damage per round, and these actually caused a lot of damage to my PC's! The living cloudkill was killed early, as was one of the Banshees. With a lot of luck, one Banshee lasted a long time and caused a bit of fun, but I rolled terribly for the Wight so he only landed one hit. Still, it was a pretty fun encounter, especially pushing and immobilising PC's into the acid pools!
The Hanging Forest - Roper Lasher (elite controller 16) and 8 Aberrant Flingers (6 x minion 13, 2 x brute 13). The PC's used their trog guide, and the party rogue pretending to be a sacrifice, to gain a surprise round vs the roper, and then nearly all of them beat the monsters on init too. It helped that the party warlord just happened to speak Primordial and called out to the roper in that language - a lucky break! I caused a bit of fun with my flingers, with four minions arriving on round 1, then 2 brutes round 2, and 2 minions round 3. But the poor Roper was nearly dead on round 1, as the rogue and warlord went to town and the PC's caused nearly 200 hp of damage on him in 1 round (5 PCs, level 14). He managed to grab two PC's, but that didn't stop them killing him next round. I grabbed another PC with a flinger, but failed to throw them off the edge (in fact, the rogue threw a flinger off the edge at one point)
F1. The Maze - I used a skill challenge a bit like DMaples. I originally planned to run it until 6 successes, but by the time the players were up to round 3 they had settled into a plan that couldn't really fail, including the use of magic items and rituals as well as PC's using skills they all had really good scores on - at one stage the wizard got over 40 on his Nature roll! So I let them complete it after 3 or 4 rounds. On each failure, I was going to throw in some kind of random encounter, with 3 failures bringing in the hook horrors too, but these were not required. Mind you I was quite prepared to skip the whole side-trek to Barbas anyway, it's only because the PC's insisted on going there for more info that I'm running it. So I'll definitely use this as mostly a role-play opportunity, to make sure the PC's learn about the Kopru City and how to destroy the Kopru and production of the Pearls...
F2. The Killing Fields - the PC's stopped, watched the Hook Horrors do a kind of war-dance, and the party rogue (bugbear) did his own war-dance in return (intimidate). That was kinds fun, and mongrelfolk kids etc had a look over the town walls. The party swordmage (fire genasi) then hailed the mongrelfolk, and rolled a terrible diplomacy. A few mongrelfolk yelled things like, "sod off, weirdo" and someone threw a rock at him (missing, of course). So the rogue took a few steps forward, hands raised to show he meant no threat, and started to try his own diplomacy... at which point of course the (stupid) hook horrors charge forward to attack. We're running that fight next session, but my plan is 6 hook horrors (soldier 13), with 2 Fool's Breath Mycolid (artillery 11). Once the PC's get on top of that fight, I'll have the remaining monsters flee or be called off by the town leader.
Have you done a similar doc about the City of Broken Idols? I'd love to see that if you do...
Not yet although I'll need to soon, since DM rotation will switch back to me soon enough.
Sweet, would love to see it, I'll be needing to convert in early 2010.
For the last parts of The Lightless Depths, I have finished converting them as follows:
The fight with 6 Hook Horrors and 2 Fool's Breath Mycolids went OK, I had some Razorvine (MotP) scattered about which became useful terrain.
When the leader of the Mongrelfolk showed the PC's the hibernating Aboleth, my guys decided to take it to a pool of water and revive it, after binding it in ropes. In its madness it just attacked, and they found it not too difficult to kill (Aboleth Overseer; elite controller 18).
For area J, I used it as above but swapped one Rhadogessa Swarm for a Rust Monster Terror Lodestone (controller 14, including a few powers from various rust monsters). The fight went OK but the rust monster didn't get to eat anyone's sword (and the swordmage wasn't worried because he could easily re-form it himself) or armour.
I've also made the exit of area J be a cliff face, with a Balhannoth (elite lurker 13) at the bottom in a big cave (it teleported into the Rhadogessa fight, then teleported back out when hit), with a little cave above the bigger one where lurks a Grimlock Ambusher (elite lurker 13). At the end of the little cave it a rope bridge, at the end of which are 4 Grimlock Beserkers (artillery 13 i.e. with longbows). The layout is from an encounter in Three Faces of Evil (2nd part of the Age of Worms AP), so the PC's need to descend one cliff, then decide if they go through the little cave in the middle or the bigger one below, then how they get past the grimlocks. With only a one of PC's having flight, and two having telport, it should be a decent challenge.
For sneaking into Golgesmera, and/or finding the tear etc, I've devise a pretty lose Skill Challenge. On fail(s), it could become more of a chase scene, where heaps of other Kopru or whatever are seen in the distance and the PC's must get away (e.g. to the Tear, or somewhere similar) before they get overwhelmed, or just deal with the random encounters - so basically a number of the ideas in the adventure will be rolled into the skill challenge. On success, they can ambush or follow a set of kopru guards, hear/see interesting things, etc. One thing I do want to avoid is needless skill challenges, e.g. destroying the tear is not something the PC's should fail at, so I'll just let them destroy it and move on.
For encounters, I've got 4 Kopru Scouts (controller 12, based on an aboleth), carried by 8 Foulspawn (14 minion solider), and 2 Solamith Demons (artillery 15) in tow. The Kopru also have soarsleds (Eberron Campaign Guide) to get themselves around without their pall bearers.
Then Rakis-Ka the Soulspike Devourer (elite soldier 16), by himself at first but when it becomes a fight he'll be joined by 2 Maw of Acamar (controller 15), and a Festering Morass (elite brute 16). The other wandering monster encounters all seem pretty lame so won't be used.
At Tlaloc's Crater, the Neh-Thalggu Scion (Brain Collector) is a re-skinned beholder (solo artillery 16), with 4 Foulspawn Ragehulks (brute 15). Instead of eye-based powers, it's just spells, but the effects are all the same. Then I gave him a mind-flayers ability to eat a brain, which allows him to cast a couple of spells as a free action too. That seems to get a pretty good 4e version of the 3.5 critter.
At Holashner's Ziggurat, the Pc's won't have a fight until they get to Q3, then it will be 4 Kopru Behemoths (brute 17; re-skined Aboleth Lasher), 2 Solamiths (artillery 15), an Altar of Zealotry (lurker trap 15, DMG 92), and Ulioth (elite controller 18; re-skined Aboleth Overseer). The altar also extends the range and scope of their mind control powers (via rituals). Q3 and Q4 are all filled with water.
The Bile Wretch (solo lurker 17-18) will be a re-skined Elder Black Dragon, adding an acidic aura, probably with 4 more Foulspawn (15 brute).
From there, I think my players will go back to find the Lair of Emraag the Glutton (Elite soldier 19); he'll be accompanied by his Living Breath (artillery 19) and 3 Kuo-Toa Monitors (skirmisher 16) each riding a war shark (skirmisher 14). Again, this bit will all be underwater (pretty sure the wizard has a ritual to cover that, and one PC is a water+fire Genasi).
I have completed an outline for the City of Broken Idols - I tried to keep it fairly small, 2 levels max, and do-able without an extended rest. Will post if there's any interest.
As for The Lightless Depths, my players decided to by-pass the Tear, and take on the Ziggurat first. They then ambushed a scouting group and got some intell, tried a few of their own diversionary tactics, drawing off a few groups of the defenders then picking them off. So a lot of Minions have died, plus a number of kopru and a few demons. There's still a number of defenders at the Ziggurat, so next up I'm using the "screaming buildings" bit, which alerts the defenders. Nearly all the defenders will then run off to look for the PC's, giving the PC's a chance to fight only one or two more groups before they can get inside the Ziggurat, where they will have two fights, ultimately destroying the Bilewretch (which they now know if what creates the pearls, assisted by the kopru high-priest). If they get bogged down, I'll fast-track e.g. turning any more fights into a skill challenge (you can only run the same kind of fight a couple of times before it gets boring and predictable).
Hi all,
I see that several of you have converted at least part of this AP to 4E. Due to the fact that I lost half my players due to the complexity of 3.5, I now want to see if I can pick this campaign up, turning it to 4E. This would lure those players back. I can have some sort of spell-plague happen and such, but I'm pretty new at 4E, though I have a bunch of the books (core, PHB2).
DMmaple had plotted out some of the adventures, which is a good guideline. Is that as detailed as anyone got? Anyone plotted out HTbM, and Tides of Dread?
My PCs were in the middle of HTbM, and would probably be skipping the Olangru and the temple until after they reach Farshore. They already did up to and including the gargoyles. I think it'd be a relief to make the pc's redo as 4E characters, as they were a bit overpowered to my taste.
Any help is appreciated.
Thanks,
Hey, I've got all the outlines that Stewart and others posted. These are good working outlines.
How are you creating/stat'ing out NPCs, such as Lavinia and Urol?
Replacing Kopru's with Fomorians/cyclopses seems like a good idea. There is only one mini for fomorians though, from Giants of Legend? They're not too cheap. Any other good mini's for those? What would be good for the behemoths?
Also, more guidance for all the skill challenges would be great. DMmaple the one you wrote for Emraag is great. How'd you come up with it?
What is the general rule for creating these encounters, as far as what level monsters are good for party level X? I'm having trouble finding the guidelines in the 4E DMG.
Thanks,
Yep, I've used the outline posted here as a rough base for converting to 4e, and have used from half of The Bullywug's Gambit through to City of Broken Idols (where the PC's are currently about to enter the main dungeon).
Firstly, decide what level you want to start everyone at. I ran HTbM with 11th level PC's, as Paragon Tier is a good point to move from the "known world" to the "unknown world" of the Isle of Dread. You could start at 11th or 12th, depending on how much you expect your PC's to do in this adventure and around Farshore etc, and also depending on how far you expect to take the campaign - finishing Serpents of Scuttlecove with PC's just heading into Epic Tier feels spot-on for 4e to me, and is quite workable. If my campaign goes that long, Into the Maw will have the PC's at 21st level.
It could be a bit of work for you all getting used to 4e starting at Paragon Tier, simply because that's when the PC's really start to get a lot of nifty tricks to pile on the effects and damage output, as long as they design good PC's and work together well. We started with 6th level PC's, so had a while to get used to it all before it got too complex, but even then taking a month off over Christmas made for a first session in 2010 where the players were quite rusty and things dragged a bit. Anyway, from a DM's point of view, just keep it simple and try to use mainly monsters of aroud the PC's level, +/- a couple, use elites for important "boss" monsters / NPC's, and aim for at least 4-5 opponents in each fight. Use the WotC monster builder, and tweak existing monsters as required (but keep it simple) - I compiled a 1-2 page "battle sheet" in a word processor, that had just the monsters stats, and terrain details, some tactics, and treasure, so I could run combats (and skill challenges) with that, and the rest of the adventure was run "as is".
Here's a breakdown of how I converted Here There Be Monsters:
Hungry Welcome: T-Rex (fang titan drake, reduced to 14th level), 4 Terror Birds (scytheclaw drakes)
Skill Challenges:
Travel to Farshore, part 1
Level 11, complexity 2 (6 successes before 3 failures)
Setup (PC's): you must navigate jungle trails, avoiding obstacles and hidden perils to reach the Dark Mountain pass.
Objective (DM): move the PC’s to, and through, the Dark Mountain pass.
(use aspects of the adventure as appropriate) Each “turn” represents one or more days.
Each turn in the challenge, at least one character must make an Endurance check, representing their particular efforts to resist the hardships of travelling the jungle: heat, diseases, and minor nasties etc.
Endurance, DC 16 (1 success, no maximum).
At least one character must make a Nature check each turn, representing the use of their superior survival skills, helping navigate around deadfalls, locate shortcuts, and identify hidden dangers.
Nature, DC 16 (1 success, 3 maximum).
At least one character must make a Stealth check each turn, concealing his movements to avoid being detected by jungle nasties.
Stealth, DC 21 (1 success, no maximum).
The PC’s keen eyes find a way to ease the trek.
Perception, DC 10 (does not count as a success). Grants a +2 bonus or a –2 penalty to the next character’s Endurance or Nature check.
Every failure means each PC starts every day with 1 less of their normal healing surges. Roll a saving throw for one NPC – on a failure, the NPC dies of some mishap (eaten, falls, or similar).
Victory: the characters (including NPC’s) reach the eastern shore in (comparatively) good condition.
Defeat: the characters (including NPC’s) reach the eastern shore, but in poor condition (tired, hungry, in poor spirits) – each PC starts every day with only 2/3 of their normal healing surges, and the NPC’s are sick and grumbling.
Once the skill challenge ends, proceed as per the module i.e. Olangru starts stalking the group…
Travel to Farshore, part 2
Level 11, complexity 3 (8 successes before 3 failures)
Setup (PC's): hounded by beast(s), you must try to get to Farshore as fast as possible, while protecting your followers.
Objective (DM): move the PC’s down the eastern shore of the Isle of Dread, to the point where Olangru abducts Urol.
<use aspects of the adventure?> Each “turn” represents one or more days.
The PC’s shouldn’t be allowed a stand-up fight – if they do not move, it’s an automatic failure (unless they can somehow convince me that they can’t be harmed; they still don’t get any closer to their destination though – Urol and Avner urge the PC’s to move on!)
The PCs must move carefully to traverse the coastline without losing time or falling. Each turn, the PC’s must make a group check: one character acts as lead, while the others make checks to aid that character.
Acrobatics, DC 16 (1 success, 3 maximum).
Occasionally, huge boulders, trees, and other hazards block the path. These need clearing before progress can continue.
Athletics, DC 16 (1 success, 2 maximum).
The PC senses the presence of a natural hazard. This provides a +2 bonus to one subsequent Acrobatics, Athletics, or Nature check.
Dungeoneering, DC 21 (does not count as success or failure).
The PC picks out the correct route through a tricky section.
Nature, DC 16 (1 success, 3 maximum).
A group of monsters poses a significant threat to the group – the PC’s must help everyone slip past, or otherwise avoid, potential disaster. Each turn, the PC’s must make a group check: one character acts as lead, while the others make checks to aid that character
Stealth, DC 21 (1 success, 3 maximum).
Other skills may also be used, depending on the players’ ideas.
The PC boosts flagging spirits amongst the group, strengthening everyone’s resolve to continue against the odds.
Diplomacy, DC 21 (1 success, 2 maximum).
Every failure means each PC starts every day with 1 less of their normal healing surges. Also, an NPC ends up dead (eaten or similar) – if too many NPC’s are dead, Urol is captured early.
Victory: the characters (including NPC’s) get closer to Farshore in (comparatively) good condition, ready to look for Urol (who is captured regardless).
Defeat: the characters (including NPC’s) must look for Urol, but in poor condition (tired, hungry, in poor spirits) – each PC starts every day with 1/3 less of their normal healing surges, and the NPC’s are sick and grumbling.
Once the skill challenge ends, proceed as per the module, i.e. Urol is in the dungeon in need of rescue…
Olaguru (Neldrazu, +2 levels, and Invoker template added hence Elite) and 4 Barlgura (+2 levels) try to kidnap Urol (be flexible in who you try to abduct, and plan for the possibility you get no-one).
Cave Entrance: collapsing cave (Gaping Maw Trap), with 2 trap haunts, 2 battle wights.
For the Shrine of Demogorgon, I used a dungeon adventure, "Fist of Mourning" as a base, as it seemed to fit reasonably well and had much more interesting encounters. Here's the result:
F1. False Witch: bulette, firelasher, oni mage
F2. Infested Mine: destrachan far voice, 2 warped cultists (fang of yeenoghu gnolls), 4 orc miners (actually gnolls)
F3. Entropic Thralls: DELETED
F4. Outraged Dead: Kalan the Avenger (duergar skeleton), 2 skeletal hammerers, 2 swarms of baboons (plaguechanged gibberling bunch, +4 levels)
F5. Hideous Cultists: deleted
Skill Challenge: Congress with the Dead; I ad-libbed this one, complexity 1.
F6. Living Statues?: DELETED
F7. Beyond the Pale: Obsen, 2 red slaads, 3 horrid spawn - replaced with Olangru (see above) and a Lemorian Golem (level 12 elite controller, customer-built based on some powers from the aspect of demogorgon), and any remaining Barlgura / Gnolls arrive in the second round.
I use the parcel system for treasure, using the 3.5 adventure as a guide to what goes where.
For NPC's like Lavinia, Captain Amella, and Lefy, I simply created them as per a monster of the level I wanted (e.g. 10). If you've got DMG2, you could treat them as side-kicks or whatever the right term is. Personally, I'm not a big fan of NPC's on the PC's side, so I kept them firmly in the background, and only in a couple of key fights did I ever have them enter a fight, and then I gave them to the appropriate player to run (e.g. Lavinia and a PC got married to the PC Warlord recently, so his player ran her in the fight against Vanthus, and Vanthus killed her, heh heh).
I've got notes for the other adventures, and they get a bit better as I improved my systems and experience.
The key is to have a vague plan on what you want to acheive, then focus only on the current adventure as far as converting it goes. You'll learn what works and what doesn't as you go anong, so long-term planning of details is likely a bad idea. Good luck, and let me know if I can help with any more detail.
The key is to have a vague plan on what you want to acheive, then focus only on the current adventure as far as converting it goes. You'll learn what works and what doesn't as you go anong, so long-term planning of details is likely a bad idea. Good luck, and let me know if I can help with any more detail.
Thanks again, man! I have more more questions for you. Since I'm picking up in 4E right in the middle of HtBM, basically right in the middle of the underground passage/complex, what do you think I should do as magic items that the characters possess right from the conversion?
I think I'm going to have the spell plague happen right now, right in the middle of the dungeon, perhaps even connected to the AP. The PCs would be level 9. First battle will be against the pc Cleric's two undead minions (an Oni mage and one of the mummys from HtBM), they will become free and attack the party as ~9th level encounter. I may invent some kind of ritual scroll that will let the PC create ONE undead zombie brute of his level-3 or something, but I don't want more than that to deal with.
I'm also having trouble thinking of ways to convert traps/puzzles. I had stolen something from someone on here where the door in the complex would only open if you cast a spell of a different school on each statue, but I can't figure out how to convert it.
Thanks again, man! I have more more questions for you. Since I'm picking up in 4E right in the middle of HtBM, basically right in the middle of the underground passage/complex, what do you think I should do as magic items that the characters possess right from the conversion?
Personally I would just let them convert over appropriately levelled characters with magic items of their choice as they would have via a character of that level and call it good... Your drastically changing the system so just handwaive anything mechanical that has came before and just go for the spirit of the matter.
I can't help you on the rest,,,
Thanks again, man! I have more more questions for you. Since I'm picking up in 4E right in the middle of HtBM, basically right in the middle of the underground passage/complex, what do you think I should do as magic items that the characters possess right from the conversion?Personally I would just let them convert over appropriately levelled characters with magic items of their choice as they would have via a character of that level and call it good... Your drastically changing the system so just handwaive anything mechanical that has came before and just go for the spirit of the matter.
I can't help you on the rest,,,
Knowing my players, they'd all pick the most broken, cheesiest items. I have to lean on the errata I suppose.
4e doesn't really have broken, cheesy stuff, and the few things that are out of whack seem to get eratta'd reasonably quickly now.
Anyway, I agree with Stewart - just let the PC's create a character as per the standard guidelines, i.e. three major magic items plus whatever they want to buy from their allocated cash. For a higher-level PC, they will probably end up a little short on all the "minor" items that a typical paragon-tier PC would have accumulated by now, but it's not a biggie and after a couple of levels it should all sort itself out.
For puzzles, I don't see much need for any real "conversion" to 4e - they should pretty much run OK as written. It all depends on whether you like the puzzles that are published in STAP - personally, I think the traps and puzzles in STAP (from the Isle on) leave a bit to be desired, so would probably have changed them if I were running them under 3.5 too.
Now, for traps, you should pretty much throw away the 3.5 versions and try to re-work the area to conform to the 4e "standard", in which a trap is part of an overall encounter design, much like a monster really. There are not a lot of traps in STAP, and the ones I remember on the Isle of Dread are either "save or die" types, which do not translate well into 4e at all (and I never liked them under 3.5), or else pretty lame little speed-bumps that won't challenge your PC's at all under 3.5 (possibly just drain a little healing or suchlike). If in doubt, my advice is to just delete the 3.5 trap altogether. If you want to keep it, try and look for something roughly similar in the 4e books (DMG etc), and add some monsters etc, to make an interesting, dynamic challenge...
For example, the entrance to the main dungeon in Here There Be Monsters features a collapsing cave if the PC's go the wrong way in. That's pretty boring, really, so for 4e I used a collapsing cave trap, but added four undead (two types of ghosts), sprinked around the whole entrance area, to create a large-sized encounter area where the PC's could get flanked, snuck up on, and potentially run into the trap. I deleted all the other traps from Here There Be Monsters, choosing instead to make the monster encounters as interesting as possible.
In Tides of Dread, I rolled the whole "ground level" Temple of the Jaguar into a single encounter: a Giant Anaconda (Feyborn Constrictor, elite soldier 11), with 3 shambling mounds (brute 14), and a trap hiding behind an illusion in the temple entrance (Vicious Vipers, obstacle 10). The idea was to lure the PC's toward the illusion, then have the monsters ambush them and try to push/pull them into the illusion, which was hiding a drop down into the temple (save or fall and take 6d10 damage), as well a swarm of vipers at the bottom.
In The Lightless Depths and City of Broken Idols, I had a few encounters that featured a mix of damaging terrain (a passive "trap", but no XP), and traps (active traps/terrain features, e.g. Volatile Haze, Demonic Slime, Deathcaps, Altar of Zealotry, Giant Rolling Boulders, Crushing Manacles.
But really, typically my group only sees about one trap per adventure, and even less puzzles - if in doubt, just delete! We tend to focus on role-play and combat against monsters - traps, and more importantly terrain, should just be ways to make fights against monsters more interesting, not the main focus. After all, we're talking about high-level PC's here, getting bogged down on the details of the environment is just going to get boring, focus on where the action's at!
Hastur has some good ideas of the kind of encounter design seperates 3.x and 4e. Personally I would do like he did and either remove traps or make them part of encounters altogether OR the other option is skill challenges, make them parts of skill challenge puzzles. In the end though in my original plan, I was cutting any trap that was a random rockslide or what have you and any encounter that wasn't needed such as oozes and the like. I like Gel cubes but in general am not a fan of random mindless critters that are there, but that's me.
Do any of you folks have more skill challenges worked out? Like for Farshore defenses or saving the town? It's hard to know where to start for those.
The skill challenge for Emraag is excellent, BTW!
I'm also curious about how you worked with Vile Rigidity, and if you used the infamous seven(is that what they're called).
For Vile Rigidity, I used Sewer Fever (DMG2, pg 206), a level 13 disease, spread with a claw or bite attack.
With the Farshore defense, I played it out in a combo of role-play and "hand waving" (quick DM decisions, based on all the work they did before, and my desire to make it interesting yet ultimately result in the PC's confronting Vanthus), rather than make it a skill challenge, with combats that focused on the PC's where appropriate. Pretty much as written under 3.5, really.
In The Lightless Depths, I used the following little Skill Challenge:
F1: The Maze (2400 xp regardless of success or failure)
Skill Challenge: Level 15, Complexity 2 (6 success before 3 failures)
Setup (PC's): You enter a low-ceilinged cavern. This area is little more than a ten-foot-high horizontal crack in the earth, covered with scree and gravel, as well as larger boulders torn loose from the ceiling. Due to the density of these scattered monoliths, visibility is low. Between the stones, patches of colour hint at plant life, suggesting a subterranean pasture of epic proportions. Each of you must choose what your contribution will be to navigating this potential mine-field…
Objective (DM): The skill challenge ultimately represents navigating the maze without alerting the hook horrors etc at the end of it. Each PC must choose one “role” (skill) per “round” – many are, essentially, aid another…
Each round (which is a section of the maze, say half an hour or so), every PC must make an Endurance check, DC 20, to avoid losing a healing surge due to the combined effects of minor annoyances on the journey. This doesn’t count as a success or failure.
Based on their role, each PC can be one of the following...
The PC acts as chief navigator, avoiding traps and dead-ends
Nature, DC 25 (+1 success, up to 6)
A PC acts as chief medical officer
Heal, DC 20 (+2 to one PC’s endurance; + one PC per +5)
The PC looks about, spotting traps and corners etc
Perception, DC 25 (gives +2 to Nature, and after 3 this alerts the group to the fact that something patrols the area ahead…)
The PC instructs the group on how to move about stealthily, cover up any noises made, etc.
Stealth, DC 25 (allows one more failure before defeat; once only)
The PC uses their knowledge of the underground to help
Dungeoneering, DC 25 (gives +2 to any other check)
The PC focuses on mitigating the effects of any problems they find
Thievery, DC 25 (gives the PC’s one success / round vs a trap before initiative is rolled)
With each failure, I envisioned a "mini encounter":
fail 1: 2 Volatile Hazes (12) with 4 Giant Rolling Boulders (11 minion)
fail 2: Phantom Hunter (18) with Fomorian Totemist (elite skirmisher 18)
fail 3: 4 Crawler Nests (18 minion) with the monsters from F2 - 6 Hook Horrors (soldier 13) with 2 Fool's Breath Mycolid (artillery 11).
As it was, my PC's succedded with 0 failures...
For Vile Rigidity, I used Sewer Fever (DMG2, pg 206), a level 13 disease, spread with a claw or bite attack.
With the Farshore defense, I played it out in a combo of role-play and "hand waving" (quick DM decisions, based on all the work they did before, and my desire to make it interesting yet ultimately result in the PC's confronting Vanthus), rather than make it a skill challenge, with combats that focused on the PC's where appropriate. Pretty much as written under 3.5, really.
That's great, Hastur! Thanks.
I plan on running each little upgrade to Farshore as both a minor skill challenge and VP per the adventure as written. I'm starting to get the hang of things using the monster builder. Now if they had a similar tool for traps, diseases, etc.
Did anyone else stat up the infamous 11? I was wondering what levels to use to make it both tough yet beatable to the right level party. The Fang Titan Drake is a good model for T-Rex but the level seems too high (16) for adventurers who'd be able 11-12th level.
What level for the aspect of Zotzilaha and from what did you base it?
Right now I'm also planning on houseruling all monsters to have 75% HP and add +1/2 per level damage to their attacks.
For a t-rex, I used a couple of different approaches...
The first one, when the PC's were new to the Island, was a "young t-rex", where I just took the Fang Titan Drake and took it down to level 14. I then added four terror birds (scytheclaw drakes). The setup was: the t-rex was chasing a bird, with three more waiting to ambush it, but of course the PC's get in the way and look like the easiest meals on offer... That encounter was fine, but not overly tough.
The next one, Temauhti-Tecuani, I made into a solo (level 16). I gave him Gorilla Gloves, then the following additional powers:
Throw and Bite (standard; daily) The T-Rex tries to throw a creature it’s grabbing; +18 vs. Fortitude; the target is pushed 3 squares, takes 2d10 damage, and falls prone. The T-Rex can then use a Bite attack against one creature in reach.
Swallow (minor; at-will) The T-Rex tries to swallow a bloodied Medium or smaller creature it is grabbing; +19 vs. Fortitude; the target is swallowed. The swallowed target is inside the T-Rex and is dazed and restrained until it is no longer swallowed. The swallowed target has line of sight and line of effect only to the T-Rex, and no creature has line of sight or line of effect to the swallowed target. The only attacks the swallowed target can make are melee or close attacks.
At the start of each of the T-Rex’s turns, the swallowed target takes 10 damage plus 5 acid damage.
When the T-Rex dies, the target is no longer swallowed and can escape as a move action, appearing in the T-Rex’s former space.
Tenaciousness (when bloodied) While bloodied, the T-Rex can make a saving throw against one effect a save can end at the start of each of its turns.
I also added some challenging terrain, namely the hot tar, which from meory was difficult terrain, immobilised and burned for at least 10 hp per round (save ends both). The idea if for the t-rex to toss some PC's into the tar, and eat one.
My PC's chewed him up and spit him out relatively easily, although I did manage to swallow one for a round.
For the Aspect of Zotzilaha, I think I used an Inferno Bat as the base, with maybe some Red Dragon in the mix. I also added some fire-bats to the encounter (as solo's are a bit flat and easy to kill if all the PC's can wail away on them all the time).
Here's the result:
Aspect of Zotzilaha Level 12 Solo Soldier
Medium immortal magical beast XP 3,500
Initiative +12 Senses Perception +13; darkvision
HP 433 (riposte when hit); Bloodied 216 (bloodied breath)
AC 29; Fortitude 28; Reflex 24; Will 25
Resist 20 fire, 10 variable [1 / encounter]
Saving Throws +5
Speed 6, fly 8
Action Points 2
m Bite (standard; at-will) • Fire
+19 vs. AC; 2d6 + 6 damage + 3d6 fire and weakened (save ends)
m Claw (standard; at-will)
Reach 2; +19 vs. AC; 2d6 + 6 damage
M Fury of Fire (standard; at-will)
Two claw attacks, and a bite attack against a different target
M Fiery Wing Riposte (immediate reaction, when the aspect is hit by a creature adjacent to it; at-will) • Fire
+15 vs. Fortitude; the target is pushed 5 squares and 3d6 fire dmg
C Breath Weapon (standard; recharge 5) • Fire, Necrotic
Close blast 5; +15 vs. Reflex; 2d12 + 5 fire damage and lose a healing surge. Miss: Half damage
C Bloodied Breath (free, when first bloodied; encounter) • Fire
The aspect’s breath weapon recharges, and he uses it immediately.
C Frightful Presence (standard; at-will) • Fear
Close burst 5; targets enemies; +15 vs. Will; stunned until the end of the aspect’s next turn. Aftereffect: -2 to attack rolls (save ends)
Alignment Evil Languages Common, Abyssal, Primordial
Str 24 (+13) Dex 18 (+10) Wis 15 (+8)
Con 21 (+11) Int 12 (+7) Cha 19 (+10)
Now, your house-rule for HP is similar to mine, which I use simply to speed things up a little and get away from too many at-will attacks in combats. I'd simply suggest that rather than add flat damage to the monsters, add more dice. The reason being that it's probably better for your players to see you roll heaps of dice and announce big damage, than roll 1d8 and say "23 damage"! Also, the maths is really simple. I use +1[W] per tier, but if your group is starting out, they probably don't have good synergy, so be wary of over-doing it, certainly +1[W] at most for now and up it to +2[W] as required at some point during Paragon tier if you think your PC's are mowing through the baddies without ever having to use surges during a fight.
So FYI in my game now, I use 67% hp for monsters, and add +[2W] to all damages, e.g. if a monster attack does 1d10+6, I'd make it 3d10+6. My players have good abilities and synergies, and are good players now, so those changes allow me to actually lay a bit of hurt on them before all the monsters are dead. In a tough fight, one PC often goes down (then pops straight back up again with healing); then again, my players really love for someone to get bloodied and/or fall down below 0 hp, because it triggers cool effects for them now. But of course YMMV - I've got two leaders in my group, and a really good combo with warlord and rogue, plus a swordmage who's part defender, part striker in role. So the PC's can lay down a lot of smack, and can also take a lot of hurt before they are in trouble. As I say, take it easy on introducing changes, it takes a while to get a good feel for what works, and for how good your players skills and their PC's designs are.
For a t-rex, I used a couple of different approaches...
The first one, when the PC's were new to the Island, was a "young t-rex", where I just took the Fang Titan Drake and took it down to level 14. I then added four terror birds (scytheclaw drakes). The setup was: the t-rex was chasing a bird, with three more waiting to ambush it, but of course the PC's get in the way and look like the easiest meals on offer... That encounter was fine, but not overly tough.
The next one, Temauhti-Tecuani, I made into a solo (level 16).
My PC's chewed him up and spit him out relatively easily, although I did manage to swallow one for a...
Interesting. What level and how many pcs did you have when they fought Temauhti? By my calculations my pcs should be about 11-12th when this battle happens, and I doubt I'll have more than 4 players at the most. I'd think a 16level solo would eat their 7sses.
For the swallow, is it possible for a character that is swallowed to escape in his own? It doesn't sound like it from your description.
Thanks for the idea with the damage dice too!
My PCs were newly 13th level vs the big T, but for that fight there were only three of them (!) - the best 3, mind you.
And yeah, for swallow, if a swallowed PC can inflict say 40 hp of damage by themselves in one round, they should get spewed out - I forgot to include that bit, because over time the 4e swallow rules have been changed quite a bit. If you include that bit too, it should be fair but still fun (when I ran it, I used the original rules which only allowed basic attacks, with the only way to get out being killing the monster, and that wasn't much fun!)
My PCs were newly 13th level vs the big T, but for that fight there were only three of them (!) - the best 3, mind you.
And yeah, for swallow, if a swallowed PC can inflict say 40 hp of damage by themselves in one round, they should get spewed out - I forgot to include that bit, because over time the 4e swallow rules have been changed quite a bit. If you include that bit too, it should be fair but still fun (when I ran it, I used the original rules which only allowed basic attacks, with the only way to get out being killing the monster, and that wasn't much fun!)
Where can I find the updated swallow rules? I have MM2 and didn't see anything there.
So I've been running this in 4e for about 3 sessions now. All I can say is, combats take long... I even bumped monsters down in HP by 25% and damage up by 1/2 per level.
For instance, last Sat night I ran the encounter where the PCs first get to Farshore and fight off the attack.
4 PCs at 9th level and 1 low level companion character.
I basically had
1) 1 short skill challenge to rescue person from burning building
2) heal check for bleeding man
3) combat with 1 level 4 artillery pirate
4) church rescue 4 level 4 artillery pirates and 1 level 9 soldier pirate 1st mate
5) 6 level 4 artillery pirates and one level 10 solider leader captain.
It ended up being an appropriate challenge, no PCs dropped, 3 were bloodied multiple times...
Including redoing maps and looking up rules, this took us from 8PM to 1AM. I can't believe it's taking us this long. I'm only averaging 1 combat a night. The only things we could do faster are experience (all of us are new to 4E) and some folks weren't rolling dice fast enough. For example, some players with powers doing multiple weapon damage are rolling them one at a time instead of all at once.
Even so I'm going to be forced to level up the characters much faster than XP would indicate. Still, no complaints. but I'd love some more stat'ed up things, like the infamous 11, or Korpu (I'm switching the main baddies to Fomorians/Cyclopses), or Phanatons.
Yep, I used a Disease for it, transmitted only through a successful bite...
Savage Fever: Your flesh breaks out into a terrible black rash that causes short bony protrusions to extrude from the affected area. As it gets worse, the terrible rash spreads and your mind grows more and more bestial. Level (creature) Disease; Endurance DC [15 + ½ creature’s level] improve, DC [10 + ½ creature’s level] maintain; Improve: you are Cured; Initial Effect: The target only gains half the normal hit points from spending healing surges; Worse: The target cannot spend healing surges; Worst: You collapse into a coma-like state and (immediately) transform gain the Savage Creature Template, awakening and immediately seeking fresh prey.
Savage Creature: become Aberrant type, and Elite; gain Darkvision, resist acid 5, Bite attack (at-will; reaction to getting hit; minor action; as basic attack but d6 for M and Savage Fever), and Death Burst (upon reaching 0 hp, Close burst 3, as basic (ranged) attack at -2 vs. Reflex; 5 acid damage @ level 1-10, 10 acid @ 11-20); become Chaotic Evil.
For my group, only one ever contracted the disease (multiple times, and it doesn't stack). He shrugged it off the first night. Remember, if you get a disease during combat, you get a save at the end of the fight to shrug it off (I forget where that rule is, but from memory it's in the DMG).
BTW, my group is now towards the end of Serpents of Scuttlecove, so I can post my conversion notes (which include a fairly significant side-trek into the mainland mid-way through) if there is any interest.
Another couple of sessions should see the Crimson Fleet demolished, and the PC's ready for Epic level...