Racial abilities: Hatred and Defensive Training

[MolotovH]

(My apologies, but this is a bit wordy. Skip to the end for the gist of the suggestion.)

If I had to choose one feature of races in 3.5 that annoys me the most, it's the concept of racial enmity as a mechanical modifier. The Hatred and Defensive Training racial bonuses of the Dwarf and Gnome force a GM's hand in world-building and present illogical situations when incorporated into back-story.

As a GM, I don't want to have my hand forced in creating a consistent living world due to some minor rule dictating that "NO, the Dwarves CAN'T live on THAT side of the ocean, because the Orcs and Goblins all live on THIS side of the ocean, so how are you going to explain THAT?" Consider the most famous case: the Dwarves of Eberron, most of whom, despite never having seen a living giant more advanced than an ogre, nevertheless have defensive training that allows them to dodge Giants of every sort. That's inconsistent and thus, it is a cause for concern from those of us (GMs) who are struggling to create exciting, life-like worlds for our players.

So far, I've largely focused on the mechanics and "crunch" of Pathfinder, so I haven't read enough of the setting's background material to know for certain how well these rules worked into Pathfinder as a setting. But that said, I'm sure I'm not the only GM planning to use Pathfinder's mechanics to define my own settings with my own unique (non-Giant-fighting) Dwarf and Gnome societies. I'm not suggesting that Paizo should cater to people like me, of course, but it would be a nice if the core Pathfinder rules were adaptable enough to allow homebrew campaigns.

From the players' end, it's still problematic. It's great to have those little bonuses (if you can remember them at the appropriate time), but what if the DM decides not to make of use of Giants or Kobolds or whatever your bonuses work against? Your racial abilities have been balanced against other races by taking that Hatred ability into account, and if it becomes useless due to the DM's story focusing on, say, the undead, then suddenly your choice of race is diminished ever-so-slightly. The same is true of Defensive Training - if you can dodge a Giant, why not a Tyrannosaurus, a Nightwalker, or a Dragon?

That said, please consider this minor tweak:

- Drop "Hatred" from the Dwarf and Gnome entries.

- Replace the text of "Defensive Training" with the following: "You gain a +4 dodge bonus vs. enemies of size Large or larger."

I think this is a simple solution that both eliminates the "there must be Giants and Orcs here" problem, while balancing the loss with a more generally-useful version of Defensive Training (which I would personally rename "Underfoot," but your opinion may vary).

[Ross Byers]

Honestly, I don't like those abilities either. The +1 attack bonuses prevent worldbuilding problems. The +4 defensive bonuses don't just cause worldbuilding problems, it's a REALLY POWERFUL ability. I used to cringe whenever I saw a Giant in an adventure with my HS game group, because the dwarf at the front of the party was already hard enough to hit with his full plate and shield.

I certainly don't think that making the bonus apply to all large-size or higher opponents is a good idea. Given that 3.5 likes to face the party off against one big monster, that bonus would apply in far too many fights. Svirfneblin get most of their level adjustment from having that dodge bonus never turn off. Dwarves are already the most powerful base race. Anything better than a dwarf is LA +1. Some races worse than a dwarf (Hi, Hobgoblin!) are LA +1. They don't need to get better. In short - Having hate-based abilities go away? Good. Making them better? Bad.

However, I think that both types of abilities are going to stick around in the interest of backward compatibility. (Not sure how often they're mentioned in published stuff outside the PHB, though, so I can hope they go away.)

[Ross Byers]

Another racial ability I'd wish would go away is the Elf secret door detection. It's a pain to remember, leads to lots of arguments at the table ("But I did walk by that wall!","No you didn't, you were on the other side!"), doesn't do much for the Elf, and leads to issues like 'do certain types of traps also count as secret doors?'.

[-Anvil-]

Ross Byers wrote:

Another racial ability I'd wish would go away is the Elf secret door detection. It's a pain to remember, leads to lots of arguments at the table ("But I did walk by that wall!","No you didn't, you were on the other side!"), doesn't do much for the Elf, and leads to issues like 'do certain types of traps also count as secret doors?'.

Yeah but at this point the elf has had that ability since 1st Ed. Or something very similar anyway. It's kind of canon for the race. maybe modify it to a bonus, but don't do away with it. It's classic.

[Ross Byers]

-Anvil- wrote:

Yeah but at this point the elf has had that ability since 1st Ed. Or something very similar anyway. It's kind of canon for the race. maybe modify it to a bonus, but don't do away with it. It's classic.

Maybe give them an additional bonus of search checks against hidden doors, akin to dwarven stonecunning.

[Set]

Ideally, I'd like to see these cultural things marked as such in a one-sentence snippet at the beginning of the race section.

All Elves have low-light vision. *Some* elves learn swords and bows as a cultural thing. All Dwarves can wear medium and heavy armor and still tromp along at SPD 20. *Some* dwarves hate goblinoids and are trained to kick their butts.

And then, in later books, regional sourcebooks, racial sourcebooks, etc. there could be racial variants. The elves of the seafaring nation of Hoodlypunk have bonuses with *spears* and bows. The mercantile dwarves of Grumplesnitch have lived in the city so long, they don't hate anyone, but they have a +2 to Appraise and Diplomacy skills.

Instead of writing a seperate line of text in each racial entry, the racial bonus abilities that all elves have could be printed in bold (or standard) text, and the culture-specific ones, like racial hatreds or weapon trainings, could be in normal (or italicized) text, with a sentence at the beginning of the Race chapter saying, "Racial abilities that are inborn are printed in bold while abilities or bonuses that are culture-dependent, and may vary based on region or upbringing are listed in italics.

One sentence added to the core book, and no change to the core races, but the OPTION to swap out certain race features based on culture, with options being available in later regional books or race-specific books. Seems like a win-win.

[Ross Byers]

Set wrote:

Seems like a win-win.

It does.

The dwarf/gnome dodge bonus is still really strong, and the elvish door detection a headache, but this is the best option while preserving compatibility.

[Set]

Ross Byers wrote:

The dwarf/gnome dodge bonus is still really strong,

I'd be partial to dropping it to +2. (Dropping it to +1 would be a bit too extreme, IMO, and I think that dropping the Grapple modifier from +4 per size class to +1 per size class was also too extreme.)

Ross Byers wrote:

and the elvish door detection a headache.

I never cared for how the elvish door detection used completely different rules than the dwarvish stonecunning. If they've got really keen senses, give them really keen senses (+2 Search/Notice checks) and be done with it.

[Ross Byers]

Set wrote:

I'd be partial to dropping it to +2.

That would be perfectly fair.

Set wrote:

dropping the Grapple modifier from +4 per size class to +1

I'd missed that one! Yeah, that is a bit extreme. +2 sounds like a good compromise again.

Set wrote:

I never cared for how the elvish door detection used completely different rules than the dwarvish stonecunning. If they've got really keen senses, give them really keen senses (+2 Search/Notice checks) and be done with it.

Indeed.

[JoelF847]

Actually, dwarves under the Pathfinder Alpha 3 rules have the "auto chance of detection" for stonework traps and secret doors AND they get the +2.

[Quentyn]

Well, given that individuals do vary a lot, I'd prefer to see some choice in the racial mechanics: Provide a few static bonuses - such as size, attribute modifiers, darkvision, and other physiological modifiers and then a quick list of possible cultural or developed racial talents to pick from, allowing so many choices or a quick-and-simple point-buy.

This could also make races much more important: you can then allow people to buy additional racial abilities from your list by spending Feats on developing racial talents.

So: Dwarves:

Standard Dwarven Racial Modifiers:
+2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma.
Medium-Sized.
Base speed of 20', but this is not modified by armor or encumbrance.
60' Darkvision.
+2 Racial Bonus on saves against Poison.

Cultural and Developed Traits: (30 Point Standard Package)
(2) Any Profession skill related to stone is a class skill.
(1) +2 bonus on Perception skill checks to notice unusual stonework
(2) May check to notice unusual stonework whenever they pass within 10 feet of it, regardless of whether they are actually looking.
(1) +2 bonus on taste- and touch-based Perception skill checks.
(1) Treat Appraise as a class skill when examining nonmagical metals and gemstones.
(3): +2 racial bonus on saves against spells, and spell-like abilities.
(3) Proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks, and warhammers
(1) Treat any weapon with the word “dwarven” in its name as a martial weapon.
(3) +1 bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the orc and goblin subtypes.
(6) +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant type.
(2) +4 bonus to their combat maneuver score when resisting a bull rush or trip attempt while standing on the ground.
(2) Speak Common and Dwarven.
(3) Favored Class Cleric or Fighter

Now, for some quick additional options:
(3) +1 Bonus to attack rolls with hand or battle axes.
(3) +1 bonus to attack rolls with crossbows and siege engines.
(3) +1 Bonus to attack rolls with maces, hammers, and picks.
(3) Any Profession or Craft skill related to Metalworking is a class skill.
(2) Any Profession or Craft skill related to Brewing is a class skill
(3) Gain the benefits of a Cure Light Wounds spell cast as if at the characters current level by resting for six hours on raw earth or stone.
(1) May determine the approximate age of any structure or item with a few minutes examination.
(4) Gain an extra hit die of the appropriate type at level one. Only (2) if this renders the character too heavy to swim.
(6) Gain the Toughness Feat.
(4) Gain +2 skill points per level to spend on Craft or Profession skills related to stone.
(6) Gain +1 skill point per level to spend on any desired Craft or Profession skill.
(4) Favored Class: Cleric AND Fighter or any other single class.
(2) Can freely use Scrolls of spells related to Earth and Stone.
(2) May cast a single first-level spell related to Earth, Stone, or Metal once per day per four levels or part thereof as if cast by a Cleric of equal level. Once selected, this spell cannot be changed.
(4) May cast a single second level spell related to Earth, Stone, or Metal once per day per five levels, rounding off to determine the number of uses (down at .2 or .4, up at .6 or .8) thereof as if cast by a Cleric of equal level. Once selected, this spell cannot be changed.
(6) Stone Magic: May cast a single third level spell related to Earth, Stone, or Metal once per day per seven levels, rounding off to determine the number of uses thereof, as if cast by a Cleric of equal level. Once selected, this spell cannot be changed.
(6) The character is always treated as if he or she was wearing a type of armor of their choice unless actually wearing armor, which supersedes this bonus.
(1) The character gets twice as much work done with Craft or Profession skills in a given time as a normal character.
(8) The character can forge a limited group of magical weapons or armor selected by the GM (the player is entitled to find out what the GM is willing to allow before selecting this ability). The characters innate ranks in the relevant craft skill substitute for the required caster level. For example, a dwarven smith might learn to forge +1 swords at L3, +1 Flaming Axes at L6, and so on.
(6) The character may anchor him- or her-self to the earth, receiving a +8 racial bonus on rolls to hold their place, anchor people against falling, or move very heavy objects.
(1-8) Gain resistance to fire equal to (2 + the number of points spent).
(3) May remain awake and working without penalty for up to three days, but must make up for the missed rest and meals afterwards.

Characters may trade in a Feat for 8 additional Racial Ability points, but may not do so more than once per four levels or part thereof.

There. Now we have customized races, variable racial cultures, an easy way to make races fit into particular settings or create specific subraces - simply mandate, add, or remove particular abilities - and a way to make Feats which fit particular races logically “cheaper” for members of those races. It will add a page or so to each race though - perhaps a bit more if we give each ability an evocative name. On the other hand, I think that races should have more development in general.

[MolotovH]

Regarding the "+4 dodge bonus to AC vs. creatures of size Large of larger" ... I think previous posters have been correct in that the given bonus is a bit large. Perhaps "+2 dodge bonus to AC vs. creatures of size Large of larger" would work better?

And, yes, I had forgotten the Dwarven/Elven ability to detect secret doors... also a pain to remember.

-Anvil- wrote:

Yeah but at this point the elf has had that ability since 1st Ed. Or something very similar anyway. It's kind of canon for the race. maybe modify it to a bonus, but don't do away with it. It's classic.

This is what the D&D development team termed a "Proud Nail," problematic rules that exist solely because "that's how it's always been."

The reason it is problematic is this: the example of play in the 3.5 PHB clearly delineates that the difference between a Search and a Spot check is intent, so the concept of an "automatic" Search check doesn't really hold water. You only get to make a Search check in 3.x if you already know what you're looking to find.

It's a bit easier to justify under Pathfinder rules, since they've rolled Search, Spot and Listen into a single skill, but it still seems like a hassle for the DM. So perhaps just a straight "+2 to Perception checks to notice secret doors" would be a better way to write the rule.

[Ross Byers]

*gets his proud nail mashing hammer*