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I've been seeing a lot of posts here and on other forums expressing dismay and more than a little anger that Paizo is not directly supporting 4E (i.e., creating modules). Many have implied, or outright declared, Paizo's making a big mistake and will either 1) eventually switch to producting 4E material or 2) will collapse. Posters suggest that the company leadership does not know what it's doing, too stubborn to acknowledge the inevitable, or is taking too great a risk for its own good.
This stroked my curiosity. Paizo has made it clear on its press releases and follow-up posts here and "abroad" the reasoning of its actions. Yet why aren't the original protesters pushing WotC to change its GSL policy?
There's actually quite a bit of clamoring for WotC to review their 4E licence policy. Maybe not so much here, but that's to be expected: paizo won't be supporting 4E and to the best of my knowledge nobody from WotC frequents these boards. There's rather a big ruckus on EnWorld and on the WotC forums though.
There's actually quite a bit of clamoring for WotC to review their 4E licence policy. Maybe not so much here, but that's to be expected: paizo won't be supporting 4E and to the best of my knowledge nobody from WotC frequents these boards. There's rather a big ruckus on EnWorld and on the WotC forums though.
Unfortunately the strongest protest will come from WoTC losing business to more player friendly companies like Paizo. (That's why I've recently joined this site.) The shortfall of that is the time for them to feel any pain. Right now I believe they're surrounding themselves in self-congratulations. If you even suggest shortcomings in 4E or the restrictive game license you get flamed, and flamed some more. Those boards would have you believe that you're retarded for not paying homage at the 4E/WoTC shrine.
They won't believe that they need to loosen the license a bit until financials come in. A common message from the Thought Police is that 4E is the most successful release in the history of gaming. We don't need no stinkin 3rd party support. I think the lie will be revealed in the long run. Us longtime gamers like diversity, and freedom.
Sorry, no solution in the short term IMO.
There's actually quite a bit of clamoring for WotC to review their 4E licence policy. Maybe not so much here, but that's to be expected: paizo won't be supporting 4E and to the best of my knowledge nobody from WotC frequents these boards. There's rather a big ruckus on EnWorld and on the WotC forums though.Unfortunately the strongest protest will come from WoTC losing business to more player friendly companies like Paizo. (That's why I've recently joined this site.) The shortfall of that is the time for them to feel any pain. Right now I believe they're surrounding themselves in self-congratulations. If you even suggest shortcomings in 4E or the restrictive game license you get flamed, and flamed some more. Those boards would have you believe that you're retarded for not paying homage at the 4E/WoTC shrine.
They won't believe that they need to loosen the license a bit until financials come in. A common message from the Thought Police is that 4E is the most successful release in the history of gaming. We don't need no stinkin 3rd party support. I think the lie will be revealed in the long run. Us longtime gamers like diversity, and freedom.
Sorry, no solution in the short term IMO.
The WoTC 4th Edition Enforcement Section has found you and will be coming to pick you up.
~shrugs~ My protest is that I am not going to be buying 4.x or supporting WotC at this time. Besides, with my bill for my Paizo products, I have little left over on my gaming budget.
Oh, and it is not 4.x that has really upset me, it is the killing of the PRINT versions of Dragon and Dungeon Magazine. A new edition is no major trouble. I have played enough games to know how to adjust, but the loss of the mags? GRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
~shrugs~ My protest is that I am not going to be buying 4.x or supporting WotC at this time. Besides, with my bill for my Paizo products, I have little left over on my gaming budget.
Oh, and it is not 4.x that has really upset me, it is the killing of the PRINT versions of Dragon and Dungeon Magazine. A new edition is no major trouble. I have played enough games to know how to adjust, but the loss of the mags? GRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
Actually, WoTC killing off the print versions Dragon and Dungeon many have been a good thing.
Check out the link. :)
They won't believe that they need to loosen the license a bit until financials come in.
I'm really not so sure. It's obviously always better for us, the customers, if more material is published by 3rd parties, but I doubt the OGL had that big an effect on WotC's 3E bottom line. I could be mistaken though, I'm certainly not particularly business savvy.
~shrugs~ My protest is that I am not going to be buying 4.x or supporting WotC at this time. Besides, with my bill for my Paizo products, I have little left over on my gaming budget.
Oh, and it is not 4.x that has really upset me, it is the killing of the PRINT versions of Dragon and Dungeon Magazine. A new edition is no major trouble. I have played enough games to know how to adjust, but the loss of the mags? GRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
Actually, WoTC killing off the print versions Dragon and Dungeon many have been a good thing.
Check out the link. :)
~wry smile~ Oh, I know that there have been several unexpected benifits to come out of the death of my two favorite magazines. Paizo's stuff and Kobold Quarterly are just two examples. However, that doesn't mean that I can't still be mad, does it?
Who cares? I just don't have any passion for arguing with people about 4th edition. At one point in time I was genuinely interested in 4th edition but now? They have alienated me so much there is little or no chance I will be returning. Wizards has proved over the last few months that the company as a whole does not care about it's customers or it's third party affiliates. In general it's the same sort of cocky attitude we got from Microsoft during the 90's. My protest to their actions is the same as it was to MS. I don't send any money their way.
I've expressed my disappointment on Wizards boards but they get ignored or shuffled off into ghetto threads.
I've been seeing a lot of posts here and on other forums expressing dismay and more than a little anger that Paizo is not directly supporting 4E *snip*
Odd, I would argue I've seen more "dismay" at other companies* supporting 4e instead of sticking with the OGL.
*Necromancer and Goodman Games, to name two.
Nice to know Paizo's envied, I guess... :)
~wry smile~ Oh, I know that there have been several unexpected benifits to come out of the death of my two favorite magazines. Paizo's stuff and Kobold Quarterly are just two examples. However, that doesn't mean that I can't still be mad, does it?Actually, WoTC killing off the print versions Dragon and Dungeon many have been a good thing.
Check out the link. :)
No, of course not.
Worse, if the way Hasbro/WoTC is handling matters ends up scuttling D&D, I think that it will do a great deal of damage to the hobby. :(
The real question is: When Pathfinder comes out, how will they communicate to players that it is the continuation of 3E D&D? In the three groups I belong on (so 16 people) only 3 know what the OGL is, or 20, or that there are companies that make games that are similar to d20 D&D but not exactly the same and not all d20 books were made by WoTC.
I hope that Paizo is building up a strong commercial push.
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I am dismayed that any business would support 4E.
At any moment in time WOTC and tell you to stop selling a given product, leaving you with unsold stock product. At any moment WOTC can take your idea, make it their own and put it in the SRD preventing you from selling or supporting your own original idea and product.
At any time WOTC feels like, they can prevent you from publishing any 4E products.
Who runs a business, lies under the guillotine and hands the cord to another company?
Any company that is supporting 4E is showing very poor business sense.
I don't actually feel a need to "protest" WotC or "hate on" 4E. I'm not actually "anti-4e" as much as I am .....
...meh...
Thus far, nobody has given me a pragmatic reason to start up 4E (and the "but you gotta buy new stuff!" mentality, while popular with younger crows, is completely lost on me), so I feel no need to learn yet another game system when I already have plenty. I had to get an extra room at my place just to house my gaming stuff for pete's sake. I thin I can run a game without 4E.
Like many others, I am also insulted as a consumer (and one who's spent a small fortune over 25-30 years in TSR/WotC/Hasbro's name) by the overtly business mind of a niche company (Hasbro my not believe it is, but gaming will always be so). Like many businesses in my area who have done similar things, I refuse to give them MORE money ... which is working out well for my wallet :-D.
I know other people will continue to spend money and my small boycott won't impact them, but there are always people who feel that the business end is unrelated to them personally. I'm too pragmatic and experienced to be blind to inconsiderate business practices.
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Actually, WoTC killing off the print versions Dragon and Dungeon many have been a good thing.
Check out the link. :)
Wow, that is a good read, and I mostly agree with Chad. Thanks for the link.
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I am dismayed that any business would support 4E.
At any moment in time WOTC and tell you to stop selling a given product, leaving you with unsold stock product. At any moment WOTC can take your idea, make it their own and put it in the SRD preventing you from selling or supporting your own original idea and product.
At any time WOTC feels like, they can prevent you from publishing any 4E products.
Who runs a business, lies under the guillotine and hands the cord to another company?
Any company that is supporting 4E is showing very poor business sense.
To date, the only major company I've seen confirm they will use the GSL is Red Brick (Earthdawn) who's prevous work (Earthdawn system)is safe and sound because its not d20 based. Everyone else seems to be going for a non GSL/copryright method. Since most of those seem to be well represented by attornies, I'm reasonably comfident they're safe.
Must irk the heck out of WoTC though...
I am dismayed that any business would support 4E.
At any moment in time WOTC and tell you to stop selling a given product, leaving you with unsold stock product. At any moment WOTC can take your idea, make it their own and put it in the SRD preventing you from selling or supporting your own original idea and product.
At any time WOTC feels like, they can prevent you from publishing any 4E products.
Who runs a business, lies under the guillotine and hands the cord to another company?
Any company that is supporting 4E is showing very poor business sense.
I think an important distinction here is that I am dismayed that any business would support/submit to GSL. Support 4E all you want ... that's just the system, and it will change again in time. What I thin would be ballsy would be for a bunch of companies to thumbe there noses at GSL and produce 4E material without signing the GSL ... but then again I'm a defiant frakker. Any company willing to die in a blaze of glory will at least get my respect ... even if they can no longer get my money.
I mean if you're gonna lie down on the guillotine, pull the cord yourself. "Far better thing" and all that.
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I think an important distinction here is that I am dismayed that any business would support/submit to GSL. Support 4E all you want ... that's just the system, and it will change again in time. What I thin would be ballsy would be for a bunch of companies to thumbe there noses at GSL and produce 4E material without signing the GSL ... but then again I'm a defiant frakker. Any company willing to die in a blaze of glory will at least get my respect ... even if they can no longer get my money.I mean if you're gonna lie down on the guillotine, pull the cord yourself. "Far better thing" and all that.
You may have gotten your wish, as there is evidence to suggest a number of 3PP's are making "4E" material instead of "4E Dungeons & Dragons" materials.
~shrugs~ My protest is that I am not going to be buying 4.x or supporting WotC at this time. Besides, with my bill for my Paizo products, I have little left over on my gaming budget.
I've come to a similar decision. I did buy the 4th edition (incomplete) core books, just so I have them, but for the time being I'm not buying any additional 4th edition materials and also for the time being, I won't be accepting any 4th edition freelance projects. But then I'm going back to school in the fall, so this isn't the ideal time for me to be taking on a lot of freelance projects or spending a lot of money anyway.
After playing 4th edition, I do consider it a fun game, but I don't consider it any more fun than 3rd edition. There were minor annoyances with the rules, but what really pushed me over the edge away from 4th edition was the GSL. When the information about it started coming out before it was officially released, I was hoping that another publisher would release a new RPG standard under the OGL. Then Pathfinder was announced, and based on the rules modifications I've seen so far, it fits what I was hoping for perfectly.
Honestly I see no reason to bother protesting WotC. It's their game, they're free to manage it how they want. What they need to understand is that thanks to the OGL, which they themselves are responsible for, we have an alternative to adopting the new game. If Pathfinder sells well enough, we will have a new game to rally around. It won't matter what WotC does with D&D because the state of our game will no longer be beholden to short term business strategies that sometimes backfire in the long run. As long as Paizo does a good job managing Pathfinder, who cares what WotC does with D&D?
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This stroked my curiosity. Paizo has made it clear on its press releases and follow-up posts here and "abroad" the reasoning of its actions. Yet why aren't the original protesters pushing WotC to change its GSL policy?
How would you suggest they proceed? And, does it seem like WOTC would even care?
Do they go to Gleemax and duke it out with the 4e Avengers?
Honestly I see no reason to bother protesting WotC. It's their game, they're free to manage it how they want. What they need to understand is that thanks to the OGL, which they themselves are responsible for, we have an alternative to adopting the new game. If Pathfinder sells well enough, we will have a new game to rally around. It won't matter what WotC does with D&D because the state of our game will no longer be beholden to short term business strategies that sometimes backfire in the long run. As long as Paizo does a good job managing Pathfinder, who cares what WptC does with D&D?
The only problem is that when you get out into the larger "gamer" community, you hit a problem of people not knowing what Pathfinder is, or who Paizo is. :(
I've been seeing a lot of posts here and on other forums expressing dismay and more than a little anger that [...]
Here's the mistake you made: It's in internet-forums. There's no meaning behind it. If it exists, there are flame-threads about it. ^^
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Honestly I see no reason to bother protesting WotC. It's their game, they're free to manage it how they want. What they need to understand is that thanks to the OGL, which they themselves are responsible for, we have an alternative to adopting the new game. If Pathfinder sells well enough, we will have a new game to rally around. It won't matter what WotC does with D&D because the state of our game will no longer be beholden to short term business strategies that sometimes backfire in the long run. As long as Paizo does a good job managing Pathfinder, who cares what WptC does with D&D?The only problem is that when you get out into the larger "gamer" community, you hit a problem of people not knowing what Pathfinder is, or who Paizo is. :(
Yep I find that too. It seems amazing to me that so few gamers have heard about Pathfinder, and Paizo. I don't know how it is elsewhere, but my local store is very anti 3PP, so I understand it here. Except people apreantly don't look anywhere else online either.
*shrug*
The only problem is that when you get out into the larger "gamer" community, you hit a problem of people not knowing what Pathfinder is, or who Paizo is. :(
I know that locally, this isn't a problem. The stores around me carry stuff from a variety of publishers, and Paizo isn't under represented at all. On the other hand, if you happen to live in one of those D&D-only dead zones, what you need to do is go up to the person who does the ordering and tell them that you will not buy D&D. You will only buy Pathfinder products. Have them special order it for you to begin with and then see if you can get the other gamers you know who frequent those stores interested.
4th edition hasn't been popular with a lot of people because they either aren't happy with the new system or they were happy with 3rd edition. Those are the ones who need to get the message. Those who are happy with 4th edition are probably never going to be Pathfinder customers.
I don't actually feel a need to "protest" WotC or "hate on" 4E. I'm not actually "anti-4e" as much as I am .....
...meh...
Thus far, nobody has given me a pragmatic reason to start up 4E (and the "but you gotta buy new stuff!" mentality, while popular with younger crows, is completely lost on me), so I feel no need to learn yet another game system when I already have plenty. I had to get an extra room at my place just to house my gaming stuff for pete's sake. I thin I can run a game without 4E.
Like many others, I am also insulted as a consumer (and one who's spent a small fortune over 25-30 years in TSR/WotC/Hasbro's name) by the overtly business mind of a niche company (Hasbro my not believe it is, but gaming will always be so). Like many businesses in my area who have done similar things, I refuse to give them MORE money ... which is working out well for my wallet :-D.
I know other people will continue to spend money and my small boycott won't impact them, but there are always people who feel that the business end is unrelated to them personally. I'm too pragmatic and experienced to be blind to inconsiderate business practices.
You must be my twin brother, abducted by kobolds shortly after we were born!!! Well said!
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I've been seeing a lot of posts here and on other forums expressing dismay and more than a little anger that Paizo is not directly supporting 4E (i.e., creating modules). Many have implied, or outright declared, Paizo's making a big mistake and will either 1) eventually switch to producting 4E material or 2) will collapse. Posters suggest that the company leadership does not know what it's doing, too stubborn to acknowledge the inevitable, or is taking too great a risk for its own good.
This stroked my curiosity. Paizo has made it clear on its press releases and follow-up posts here and "abroad" the reasoning of its actions. Yet why aren't the original protesters pushing WotC to change its GSL policy?
Besides EnWorld, what other forums are we talking about?
How is Paizo different than all the other companies which produced systems that were not D&D? Paizo is not the first company to take on the behemoth that is the D&D brand. Sure, you may feel Pathfinder is a better product but a lot of people feel there are dozens of games which are better products, yet D&D continued to own the market.
Are there enough supporters to go against the marketing? It has been done before, New Coke anyone? An angry and vocal minority¹ is not enough.
¹I am in no way claiming that Paizo supporters are a minority. I have no data and would not even hazard a guess at the number of Paizo supporters vs. WotC supporters. I am just pointing out that it will take a majority of gamers to overthrow the throne. Good luck and god bless.
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How is Paizo different than all the other companies which produced systems that were not D&D? Paizo is not the first company to take on the behemoth that is the D&D brand. Sure, you may feel Pathfinder is a better product but a lot of people feel there are dozens of games which are better products, yet D&D continued to own the market.
Are there enough supporters to go against the marketing? It has been done before, New Coke anyone? An angry and vocal minority¹ is not enough.
¹I am in no way claiming that Paizo supporters are a minority. I have no data and would not even hazard a guess at the number of Paizo supporters vs. WotC supporters. I am just pointing out that it will take a majority of gamers to overthrow the throne. Good luck and god bless.
well... I have a pitchfork and a torch... I'm free saturday night...
How is Paizo different than all the other companies which produced systems that were not D&D? Paizo is not the first company to take on the behemoth that is the D&D brand. Sure, you may feel Pathfinder is a better product but a lot of people feel there are dozens of games which are better products, yet D&D continued to own the market.
Are there enough supporters to go against the marketing? It has been done before, New Coke anyone? An angry and vocal minority¹ is not enough.
¹I am in no way claiming that Paizo supporters are a minority. I have no data and would not even hazard a guess at the number of Paizo supporters vs. WotC supporters. I am just pointing out that it will take a majority of gamers to overthrow the throne. Good luck and god bless.
This posting seems so out of place for you. Where's the witty poking I've come to enjoy? Why so serious?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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well... I have a pitchfork and a torch... I'm free saturday night...
About time someone got to the point. What the hell is the point of a thread about how no one's protesting unless someone's going to protest! It'll be like PCU!!!
WE'RE NOT GOING TO PROTEST!
WE'RE NOT GOING TO PROTEST!
WE'RE NOT GOING TO PROTEST!
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How is Paizo different than all the other companies which produced systems that were not D&D? Paizo is not the first company to take on the behemoth that is the D&D brand. Sure, you may feel Pathfinder is a better product but a lot of people feel there are dozens of games which are better products, yet D&D continued to own the market.
Are there enough supporters to go against the marketing? It has been done before, New Coke anyone? An angry and vocal minority¹ is not enough.
¹I am in no way claiming that Paizo supporters are a minority. I have no data and would not even hazard a guess at the number of Paizo supporters vs. WotC supporters. I am just pointing out that it will take a majority of gamers to overthrow the throne. Good luck and god bless.
Don't get me started on New Coke and the whole sucrose/high fructose corn syrup smoke-and-mirrors mindf!+*.
You'll make me sound like a whacko conspiracy theorist.
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This posting seems so out of place for you. Where's the witty poking I've come to enjoy? Why so serious?How is Paizo different than all the other companies which produced systems that were not D&D? Paizo is not the first company to take on the behemoth that is the D&D brand. Sure, you may feel Pathfinder is a better product but a lot of people feel there are dozens of games which are better products, yet D&D continued to own the market.
Are there enough supporters to go against the marketing? It has been done before, New Coke anyone? An angry and vocal minority¹ is not enough.
¹I am in no way claiming that Paizo supporters are a minority. I have no data and would not even hazard a guess at the number of Paizo supporters vs. WotC supporters. I am just pointing out that it will take a majority of gamers to overthrow the throne. Good luck and god bless.
He has his serious hat on today. Or maybe he got spayed.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Don't get me started on New Coke and the whole sucrose/high fructose corn syrup smoke-and-mirrors mindf!*&.
You'll make me sound like a whacko conspiracy theorist.
Oh come on heathy. What makes you sound like a whacko conspiracy theorist is the fact that you summoned a being of infinite evil merely to laugh at your bad jokes. That's some twisted s@@$, bro.
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Unfortunately the strongest protest will come from WoTC losing business to more player friendly companies like Paizo.
That reflects my spending habits pretty well. Since 4e was announced, I've spent more money on Paizo products than I had spent on WotC products (which I've bought none of since the announcement) since I started playing three years ago.
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So what's the story behind New Coke?Don't get me started on New Coke and the whole sucrose/high fructose corn syrup smoke-and-mirrors mindf@*~.
You'll make me sound like a whacko conspiracy theorist.
Coke spent a lot of money changing their winning recipe and nobody bought the new product because it tasted horrible.
Are there enough supporters to go against the marketing? It has been done before, New Coke anyone? An angry and vocal minority¹ is not enough.
A vocal and angry minority is what took New Coke down. It complained loudly and forcefully enough that, coupled with the marketing debacle Coke had on its hands against Pepsi in the Cola Wars, New Coke became the untenable product. But the protest against New Coke started out as a minority protest.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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A vocal and angry minority is what took New Coke down. It complained loudly and forcefully enough that, coupled with the marketing debacle Coke had on its hands against Pepsi in the Cola Wars, New Coke became the untenable product. But the protest against New Coke started out as a minority protest.
Dear god. The Cola Wars. When will mankind learn?
WHEN!?!?!
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Paizo isn't trying to "beat" WotC. There's a large portion of 3e fans (maybe as high as 35-40%, depending on what sort of figures you believe) who aren't going to play 4e, and that's who Paizo's targeting. It's not a big enough segment of fans to "win" the market and become the number one game out there, but it's sure a big enough chunk to ensure profitability, to a nice large degree.
Paizo isn't trying to "beat" WotC. There's a large portion of 3e fans (maybe as high as 35-40%, depending on what sort of figures you believe) who aren't going to play 4e, and that's who Paizo's targeting. It's not a big enough segment of fans to "win" the market and become the number one game out there, but it's sure a big enough chunk to ensure profitability, to a nice large degree.
The difficulty is getting enough "product awareness" to reach that 35-40% of the market.
And, actually, losing over a third of their market share generally causes major corporations to take notice. :)
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So what's the story behind New Coke?Don't get me started on New Coke and the whole sucrose/high fructose corn syrup smoke-and-mirrors mindf@*~.
You'll make me sound like a whacko conspiracy theorist.
Okay.
Subsidies in this country drive sucrose prices up. That's why "Coke Classic" tastes nothing like "Coca Cola" used to. That's why it doesn't taste the same as "Mexican Coca Cola" which I believe is still made with sucrose; I haven't checked in a year.It's NOW made with, and has been for quite a few years, with high fructose corn syrup.
So.
They wanted to switch from sucrose to HFCS. They had to bring out this "new Coke" drek, have it shot down, and return to "Coca Cola Classic" with HFCS. Hopefully, nobody would notice, unless they went to Costa Rica and got an actual Coca Cola made with sucrose and put two and two together.
I just want to say I have no proof of any of this, nor do I wish Coca Cola any ill will or loss of market share to Pepsi, which I do not drink unless I'm at Taco Bell.
(goes back to safe room and recalibrates tinfoil pyramid hat).
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Okay.
Subsidies in this country drive sucrose prices up. That's why "Coke Classic" tastes nothing like "Coca Cola" used to. That's why it doesn't taste the same as "Mexican Coca Cola" which I believe is still made with sucrose; I haven't checked in a year.
For the record: Mexican Coke is still made with sucrose and it is damn tasty.