I'm starting this in a new thread rather than derail some of the discussions on the channeling mechanic.
one of the consequences of Channeling is that it highlights the role of clerics as conduits for positive / negative energy and to my mind I think that this should extend to the gods themselves - ie they should either be gods of life, or anti-life.
now if you take this logic through to the extremes, you could end up with evil gods being able to channel positive energy, and neutral (maybe even good?) gods be able to channel negative energy. This takes some of the absolutes of good / evil and replaces them with a different kind of divide
now this does mirror some of the cosmology in my homebrew, so I realise it may not fit with other games core assumptions, but it would be a more interesting approach to gods where known evil gods were tolerated due to their healing ability (gods of tyranny, thievery, power etc would seem to fit here)whereas neutral gods of death were reviled due to the perceived harm they caused. Wether you extend this to cure / inflict spells is open to debate(personally i would, but i'd add some more touch damage spells tied to the domain as well)
now this takes some choice away from the players as they wont be able to choose a neutral god and then have the choice of positive / negative energy but it would also make negative channelers stand out, either as BBEG or as outcasts for PC's
like I said in the title, this is a purely flavour thing, and it doesn't really depend on the exact mechanism used but it does (to me) provide a wonderful basis for societies and campaigns
Hope this provokes a few ideas....
I am provoked, hmmm....
I like the thought that Gods are aligned with Positive or Negative energy and presumably they live in Planes with a similar association. It like the mixture of Good and Evil with Positive and Negative energy and not necessarily the habitual association. I like the concept of a Cleric channeling only their God's energy type (or at least having a penalty). Likewise, I presume you would push a stronger connection between a Gods Domains and the Clerics spells.
It is neat but unless I wanted to create a homebrew, I would probably not use it.
EDIT: Although, this has me thinking about a dichotomy I have also seen. Clerics of a God of War should not heal. But they probly need healing a lot. So maybe Clerics of the God of War can cast healing spells, but they only work when you injure the enemy. Or maybe make a Good God of War aligned with Negative energy. Negative powers his destructive spells and makes his 'healing' spells necromantic where they suck the life out of the enemy. Or maybe that would be how the Evil God of War works? More provoking of thoughts.
I am provoked, hmmm....
I like the thought that Gods are aligned with Positive or Negative energy and presumably they live in Planes with a similar association. It like the mixture of Good and Evil with Positive and Negative energy and not necessarily the habitual association. I like the concept of a Cleric channeling only their God's energy type (or at least having a penalty). Likewise, I presume you would push a stronger connection between a Gods Domains and the Clerics spells.
It is neat but unless I wanted to create a homebrew, I would probably not use it.
The idea did come from my homebrew cosmology where the gods (good & evil) were the forces that created the world and life from the raw chaos that existed before. Demons / devils / 'other things' are from the time before and ultimately work for the destruction of the world. This to me would be the divide between positive / negative energy. thats probably a step to far from RAW for some, but it did seem to me to be a way to visualise the positive / negative divide
EDIT: Although, this has me thinking about a dichotomy I have also seen. Clerics of a God of War should not heal. But they probly need healing a lot. So maybe Clerics of the God of War can cast healing spells, but they only work when you injure the enemy. Or maybe make a Good God of War aligned with Negative energy. Negative powers his destructive spells and makes his 'healing' spells necromantic where they suck the life out of the enemy. Or maybe that would be how the Evil God of War works? More provoking of thoughts.
I was struggling a bit to come up with an example of a 'good' negative force, but the god of war would be an interesting one.
God 1 - LE god of war using positive energy. This god represents the power and control of others and power to heal or deny healing is one of the ways they control the peasantry and force their views on others (think of the Ori from the later stargate series)
God 2 - CG god of war using negative energy. focus on the destruction of tyrants and the liberation of peoples. these priests often come back from the dead to haunt their murderers and seek justice from beyond the grave..... (think of The Crow)
so here the LE positive god might not be liked, but would be respected
the CG negative god could probably be feared, but called on when all other hope is lost
OK, how about this...
Different races/cultures actually worship different aspects of the same god...
One culture worships god x as the god of death (evil), while another culture worships the same god as the god of the life cycle- life, death, and rebirth (neutral or, maybe, good). The god could even have the same name! Which could cause friction between two cultures that actually worship the same god!
Anyway, food for thought...
This raises one of the real fundamental questions about 'game gods'
does the god reflect the worshippers, (so in this case the god is truly both evil and good in what he does) or is the god fundamentally what he is (and will step in and re-educate his worshippers as to what he really is)
in case 1, it would make perfect sense to have the same god being worshipped in some very varied ways (certainly to have negative / positive channeling depending on the aspect), and allow for civil wars and other in-fighting as each tradition tried to impose its viewpoint
in case 2, the different traditions might be focussing on different aspects of the god, but there is no doubt that the god is the one and the same and only a certain level of friction in the church would be tolerated before the god stepped in and made a definitive ruling (its difficult to schism in a world where the god in question can definitely appear and make its view known unambiguously)
now this isn't an absolute divide, maybe the case 2 god will not make a ruling, instead forcing the worshippers to learn by trial and error but in that case you effectively end up with the same situation as case 1
Now i can see role-playing potential in both approaches. If the god is a reflection of its worshippers then the attitude of the clergy can have far reaching consequences. corruption in the high reaches of the church can corrupt the faith itself and maybe you can see how the alignment of gods drifts over time and region.
however if the god is absolute then you have the outward perception of the faith (ie the god of justice and order) potentially masking the faiths true nature (power and tyranny) with the clerics making use of spin and marketing to increase their faiths status and means you always need to look for the hidden agendas....
Equally you could have a relatively nice faith (god of animals) corrupted by an established church (god of gnolls) so that the outward perception of the faith doesn't actually reflect its core beliefs . I remember playing a palladium game a few years ago where the mission was to revive the worship of the dragonwright gods, which were generally reviled as only the evil members of the pantheon had active followers.
its a little of topic as I was trying to focus on positive / negative enegy being an absolute property of the faith, but their is a connection as it depends on how you interpet the gods role in your own game.
The "god" reflects what the worshipers believe he is, regardless of what the gods alignment is.
Which brings up another point... I hate alignments.
I use motivation and personality descriptors instead as it models reality better. Sometimes good and evil are just subjective... but that is another topic...................
I don't think there is a right answer in this - both cases give individual flavour and plot potential but in your case of 2 cultures, #1 would probably be the best rationale
Re Alignments
I hear what you say, but traditional alignements are just too useful as a shorthand for me to move completely over to motivation / allegancies (only use those for key plot elements).
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Taking it one step further, imagine a god of fire granting his Clerics the ability to channel energies from the Elemental Plane of Fire, or a god of whimsy, madness and trickery granting his Clerics the ability to channel the energies of pure chaos from Limbo.
Positive and Negative Energy are just the tips of this particular iceberg.
When I read the topic for the first time, my immediate thought was "Strawberry or cinnamon flavour?" :P
Well. In this case the flavour should be set by PRPG setting, with which is the book related. If you want to set different flavour then it's your choice...
Well. In this case the flavour should be set by PRPG setting, with which is the book related. If you want to set different flavour then it's your choice...
Has this been discussed before on the PF society boards? I did wonder if the Paizo guys had considered the ramifications of this rule change fully into the setting
Taking it one step further, imagine a god of fire granting his Clerics the ability to channel energies from the Elemental Plane of Fire, or a god of whimsy, madness and trickery granting his Clerics the ability to channel the energies of pure chaos from Limbo.
Positive and Negative Energy are just the tips of this particular iceberg.
I hand't taken thought that far (yet....) but i would see that as a brilliant variant rule / feats. That might also be a way of satisfying those with concerns that the positive & negative dual cure / inflict role is a little OTT
It might tread on the wizard / sorcerers toes, but a god of fire should (imho) be able to do something scary before reaching flame strike..
Well. In this case the flavour should be set by PRPG setting, with which is the book related. If you want to set different flavour then it's your choice...Has this been discussed before on the PF society boards? I did wonder if the Paizo guys had considered the ramifications of this rule change fully into the setting
No Idea.
For me the thing is the mechanic. For flavour my players either don't care or we solve the matter after a short discussion if the cleric really wants to know...