Hey, that's my avatar!since the thread has veered to music...I'll put this in as my opinion of D&D 4e...for those Pink Floyd fans out there, if you're old enough you remember when Roger Waters left the band and the ensuing legal battles. after it was all done, Waters said "They own the name "Pink Floyd" but it's not Pink Floyd anymore."
That's how I see WotC and "D&D" 4e.
You may have the rights to avatar, but it is not avatar anymore. :D
He chose... poorly...
But he chose not to choose!
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Okay, my shallow attempt at thread-jacking a flame war succeeded.
Hey, I like Shonen Knife. To varying degrees, I also like Primus, The Police, Green Day, Wolfmother, The Minutemen, Motorhead, Husker Du and, of course, The Beastie Boys.
But in terms of talent, influence, and impact, I think Nirvana beats them all.
Not to start another flame war but............
Nirvana Are you serious??
If any band was overblown about talent they didn't possess and did not contribute nearly as much as the credit is sometimes given them, it is Nirvana. I'm not going to say that anyone who likes Nirvana sucks or doesn't know what good music is, Simply for the fact it is a free country and not all of us like the same kind of music. But please for the sake of all that is good.....Don't choose Nirvana.
OK well that's my sarcastic two copper pieces. Trio wise though have to give it to the Police but as one poster stated MAIDEN RULES!
*watches Payne died from EXTREME old age all at once from playing a 4E session*
He chose... poorly...
LOL! I wish I could GROW hair like that :P
Honestly, I've really tried to like 4E. I've read it over and over. I have the books. But it my opinion it's pure sewage. I honestly can't say its better then that. But I also understand there are people out there who think it's the best thing that's ever been made. Knowing that they will see new books by different publishers and I'll be looking through the bargin bin for the same books I've seen over and over kinda does hurt.
What do you want for your 4E books? Name a (reasonable) price. One man's sewage is another man's backup bookset.
Oh, and I've played lead guitar for many bands, and played a bunch of show up in New England. We've done alot of covers. I believe Nirvana was very talented. However, their songs were overly simple. That's what they did and they did it well.
Nirvana was popular therefore, as the music superfan reasoning goes, they weren't very good and had no talent.
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Oh, and I've played lead guitar for many bands, and played a bunch of show up in New England. We've done alot of covers. I believe Nirvana was very talented. However, their songs were overly simple. That's what they did and they did it well.
Yes and though I do Bash 'em because I feel they are way over rated, it does take something to get to the level they were and to be remembered so well by their fans.
Plus I couldn't play even half as well as they, so I cant say much can I?
What do you want for your 4E books? Name a (reasonable) price. One man's sewage is another man's backup bookset.Remind me not to visit your library in the future...
Well, I do do a lot of reading on the "throne", but I have air freshener. It helps! I swear!
OOPS. Sorry Billzabub, didnt realize the parameters of the argument! **slaps forehead**
Trios. Im going with The Jimi Hendrix Experience first (Mitch Mitchell was AMAZING! Brought the drum into its own new realm as much as Hendrix just warped time and space. Yeah, Redding was just there to keep the beat, but he saved his cash and used it to give us Eric Burdon and the Animals...another great band). **EDIT** It was Chas Chandler that gave us Hendrix and the Animals...whoops! So, back to Redding was just there to hold the other two musicians together.
Shonen Knife is great too...included them in the Erik Mona metal thread down below in the Paizo ghetto where I live.
Police is another great choice, Synchronicity I and II are brilliant. Love them!
Triumph's "Magic Power" is a showstopper!
I like a few Nirvana songs "Pennyroyal Tea" "Territorial P*ssings" "Negative Creep" and some others, but I agree that they were given way too much credit.
Just got back from a Rush show in K.C. and Neal kicked ass! AWESOME!
Few other trios to throw in the mix:
King's X!!
Cream "Badge". YEAH!
Violent Femmes
and Iron Maiden is a double trio! Right? Dave, Adrian and Janick (triple guitars) plus Bruce, Nicko, and 'Arry! So, they WIN TWICE!
Hands down - Shonen KnifeHave you ever actually listened to Shonen Knife.Not only have I listened to them but I have seen them play live on several occasions.
You win.
Not to start another flame war but............
Nirvana Are you serious??
If any band was overblown about talent they didn't possess and did not contribute nearly as much as the credit is sometimes given them, it is Nirvana. I'm not going to say that anyone who likes Nirvana sucks or doesn't know what good music is, Simply for the fact it is a free country and not all of us like the same kind of music. But please for the sake of all that is good.....Don't choose Nirvana.
OK well that's my sarcastic two copper pieces. Trio wise though have to give it to the Police but as one poster stated MAIDEN RULES!
This all just proves my point about the whole edition wars thing. Everyone has an opinion, and opinions are personal. Of course, there's the added problem of not having clear parameters about what is being debated - which band/rules were more popular, easy to understand or listen to, more talented/better written, more influential, more accessible, better selling, etc., are all different debates.
The Police were a great band and certainly popular, but I feel Nirvana legitimately had a bigger impact and influence on music. For one, I can't really think of any bands were I can say, "Yeah, Sting & Co. clearly influenced these guys." Two, music, both pop and alternative, clearly changed with Nirvana, and not so with The Police. Personally, as someone who is also a Maiden fan, and a big one at that, I'm grateful to Nirvana for putting an end to glam rock and hairbands. When they came around, they were the forefront of a very new and refreshing turn in music.
On that note, and I really don't think I'm stretching things here, I feel that 1991 was a phenomenal year for music. NIrvana, Pearl Jam's Ten, Smashing Pumpkin's Gish, Nine Inch Nail's Pretty Hate Machine, the Chili's Blood Sugar Sex Magick, Tribe Called Quest and even Garth Brooks all really exploded on to the music scene. Rock, Alternative, Country and Hip Hop were all pushed in new directions.
Of course, it took some people a while to catch on. I had extra tickets to a show at NYC's Roseland (occupancy maybe 3,000 people) that I couldn't give away. That was the Chili's headlining with Pearl Jam and Smashing Pumpkins opening. Oh well.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Put me down for Nirvana being an overrated influence. Without the suicide, I think they'd be credited with a lot less influence. I always found them derivative. But as someone who can't stand them, I doubt I'm objective on the subject.
The Police definitely had quite an impact on music, I would rate them as one of the biggest influences on music in the 70s and 80s, long after they broke up. Up there with Pink Floyd and Talking Heads for shaping alternative/college music.
Your mileage may vary :)
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I thought I would reply (nicely) to some of your thoughts as someone who likes 4E as part of the continuing interesting dialogue. We actually agree on many points.
Well, I'd have to say, one of the reasons that there is 3e vs 4e arguements is because people who like the older edition feel abandoned. It's a natural way of things that newer models come out.
It seems like whenever I really get into a TV show it ends up getting canceled. Now I stuck with reruns. That's how I'm feeling with DnD.
I agree with you on the "abandoned" feeling. That's a normal part of life and I can certainly see people feeling like that... towards WOTC. Not me. Make sense?
If their favorite TV show is canceled – what do people do? They write the company that canceled the show! They buy a couple ton of peanuts to send to the HQ (loved that show!) The point being, if you’re unhappy, you yell at the people responsible for the actions. Not me.
Sure Paizo is sticking with 3E, which is awesome, and they are doing a great job. But as a whole things are changing over to 4E. And sure those of us who don't like 4e can ignore it. But that also means publishers will be ignoring us.
My impression so far is that of any other transition this one is going to have the most support for the old version of any. Which is great news for you. And me too cause I want to keep playing 3E! And PF!
Honestly, I've really tried to like 4E. I've read it over and over. I have the books. But it my opinion it's pure sewage. I honestly can't say it’s better than that. But I also understand there are people out there who think it's the best thing that's ever been made. Knowing that they will see new books by different publishers and I'll be looking through the bargain bin for the same books I've seen over and over kind of does hurt.
Sewage? Really? Did you ever try TSR’s Indiana Jones RPG? :-) My point being, there are some *really* bad RPG’s. You say you've read it, but not played. Reading vs. playing does make a big difference. I've played through a number of sessions of 4E now and the "feel" isn't as different as I thought it would be.
I think what made it worse was how the magazines died and the online thing was done so poorly. I understand why WOTC killed the magazines and wanted to go online. I get it. But their website was chaotic and lacked content. I think that just set the stage for people to get upset.
ABSOLUTELY! WOTC has done a horrible job, IMHO. Communication, the GSL, DDI not being ready at launch. Horrible. Anyone who doesn’t want to play 4E because they are protesting WotC I can completely understand. I’ve had to separate the company from the product in my mind simply because I know the designers didn’t make most of those poor choices. They’re actually pretty nice fellows when you meet them in person.
Finally D&D has had such a bad name since it first came out. Those of us who played, were teased and labeled as geeks and nerds. But we stuck by our games. We knew our role playing stretched our mind's muscles, while they were losing brain cells from each tackle. I like video games and stuff, but paper and pencil role playing games really help you to think better. It's all about problem solving. Even if you are just bashing monster after monster, you're still problem solving. It's not just hitting A over and over again. You're picking an enemy. Trying to exploit their weaknesses while strengthing your strength. Adding all those bonus and penalties, might not be the hardest math, but you really are getting smarter for RPGs. The new edition removes a lot of this to try and draw in those who enjoy button mashing.
And here’s where we diverge again. None of this has really changed with a new edition. The math is still there. All the positives you describe are still available in the new edition. In fact combat has improved (my opinion) for the “bashing monster” fighter et al who now have more to do then just “hit the monster again”(Hit A). Now he has interesting things he can do each round.
Overall, It might be a good business thing, but then again Role Players always look for more then that. And I think that is what is really pissing people off.
Again, agreed. If I put my evil corporate suit hat on (bwahaha!) I can see Wotc/Hasbro has a plan. They’re executing it rather poorly, and it’s really pissing people off. I can definitely agree with that. But again, I (or other folks who like 4E) are not WotC, and that's sort of the point of this thread.
Or to put it another way: The best way to get people to play less 4E is for you to invite us to more of your PF games so we're too busy. ;-)
Personally, as someone who is also a Maiden fan, and a big one at that, I'm grateful to Nirvana for putting an end to glam rock and hairbands. When they came around, they were the forefront of a very new and refreshing turn in music.
Alright alright alright. I'll give you that the hairbands were getting sillier, or lazy, or both. All those friggin Aerosmith and the Boston Symphony Orchestra (or GnR, Scorps, Metallica, whatever). I just wish they'd left "The 'Ball" on the air! Give those groups some little area to survive...'Course smashing all their egos was probably good for them. You hear about Jim Carrey's newest deal on his new movie? Pretty sobering.
I remember when Kurt and Krist showed up on the Ball freaking Riki out and the next couple episodes when Tommy Lee (and maybe some others) all praised Nirvana as an 'upcoming juggernaut'.
Personally, I like Alice in Chains more from that era.
And you are right comparing it to the edition wars. Everybody and nobody is 'correct' in their own gaming group's preference. I like Tribe Called Quest and Bulletboys. (though Garth Brooks/Chris Gaines is a fail)
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Trios. Im going with The Jimi Hendrix Experience first (Mitch Mitchell was AMAZING! Brought the drum into its own new realm as much as Hendrix just warped time and space. Yeah, Redding was just there to keep the beat, but he saved his cash and used it to give us Eric Burdon and the Animals...another great band). **EDIT** It was Chas Chandler that gave us Hendrix and the Animals...whoops! So, back to Redding was just there to hold the other two musicians together.
When it comes to place-for-place comparisons, I actually like Buddy Miles and Billy Cox (Band of Gypsys) better than Mitchell and Redding. Miles was exactly what Jimi needed the most - someone who could sing! On the whole, their tunes don't compare to what the Experience generated, but man does Machine Gun and the Power of Soul kick ass. It boggles the mind to think of what they might have done had Jimi lived...
probably would have been even better than Nirvana.
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1-up! First grandson due 8/25 from my oldest daughter. I'm already starting to shop for appropriate nerd baby clothes. (anyone have good links? more threadjacking!!)
How about THIS?
... or this even though its not really for babies. I am sure he or she can grow into it.
Lol. My wife loves her little cthulhu shirt. :)
Very cool - does she have one of these?Lol. My wife loves her little cthulhu shirt. :)
... or this even though its not really for babies. I am sure he or she can grow into it.
No, but she has this shirt as well. I couldn't find a better pic of it though ... that one doesn't do it justice. :P
I'll send her the plush link ... she used to have a MiB Cthulhu plush until Katrina ate it. :(
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Very cool - does she have one of these?Lol. My wife loves her little cthulhu shirt. :)
... or this even though its not really for babies. I am sure he or she can grow into it.
No, but she has this shirt as well. I couldn't find a better pic of it though ... that one doesn't do it justice. :P
I'll send her the plush link ... she used to have a MiB Cthulhu plush until Katrina ate it. :(
Its not really plush unless you count vinyl toys as being kinda pliable. Oh, and that particular version is a Paizo exclusive.
Ok. Commercial interruption over ... sorry about that.
Its not really plush unless you count vinyl toys as being kinda pliable. Oh, and that particular version is a Paizo exclusive.Ok. Commercial interruption over ... sorry about that.
Lol, I realized that as soon as I hit post and went to actually mail her the link. Whoops!
But I agree, we now return this thread to its prescribed off-topic topic ... music.
I can't speak for everyone but I do not post out of fear. I post because I have chosen to play 4e and would love to actually talk about it.
The reason I defend 4e is simple - I have little tolerance for the active spread of disinformation that is far too often the subject of many posts in this section of Paizo's boards.
And by disinformation, you mean anyone who has looked at 4E and doesn't see it exactly like you do.
And by disinformation, you mean anyone who has looked at 4E and doesn't see it exactly like you do.I can't speak for everyone but I do not post out of fear. I post because I have chosen to play 4e and would love to actually talk about it.
The reason I defend 4e is simple - I have little tolerance for the active spread of disinformation that is far too often the subject of many posts in this section of Paizo's boards.
^5
Don't feed the trolls like him.
So why do we still see arguments on the threads? I just don't understand it. Didn't the horse bolt ages ago?
(Try and keep this nice if you can.)
Personally I'm still pissed about FR. The simple reality is that the only times things change is when people are vocal in their opposition. I've written a letter directly to WotC with my oppinion and I have recieved my nice little form letter. I'm vocal because if I am not, I feel like my silence is consent for what Wizards is doing. Especially when you have the 4E fanboys trying to get Paizo to go 4E. I am hostile and vocal because I see myself as a good customer being thrown under the bus by WotC for being out of their NEW target demographic.
(That's about as nice as I can get on this subject.)
I happen to agree. If your answer to a missing 4E rule is "you can make one up", you aren't saying anything to defend the edition's lack of the rule. We're all aware we can make stuff up here :)Then why is the gap a problem if it is easily remedied with a simple fix? People have been doing that since OD&D.
And if that is the solution of 4E why wasn't that simply applied to 3.5 and called done?
Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering...My analysis:
First off, I'm ernestly staying out of the whole 4e section, pretty much because I agree with Aubrey here, and argle bargling on and on about it doesn't have an angle.
I think there's fear still, on both sides.
I think the whole character of the GSL was motivated by fear.
I think the whole Edition Wars is motivated by fear of loss on both sides.
"Oh no! We lost Paizo!"
"Oh no! We lost The Mainstream Juggernaut!"
"Oh no! WOW IS the Mainstream Juggernaut!"
Fear, plain and simple.
I'm fine with suffering, as long as I'm the one causing it.
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Thank god someone finally took this thread off the path of good natured ribbing and healthy community spirit and dragged it back into the neverending pile of s#!! that is the edition wars. That's just what was needed! Pat yourselves on the backs, you guys rule.Ok. Ok. I know. Back to the whimsical sideshow ...It's not too late to delete your posts. Responding to every childish insult that gets thrown over the interwebs is part of what attracts so many haters to attacking you.
*poof*
All cleaned up. Well, for this thread anyway.
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I am sick of the brawl.
I play both. Given my contributions to living campaigns in the past, I will be writing for both.
Yeah I get why some people love 4.0. I get why some people hate 4.0.
A disrespectful and irrational approach to the concerns/aesthetics/tastes of other players does nothing but erode our community. Slavish defense of every single complaint is counter-productive. Trolling posts are hateful.
Use this space as a resource, not a soapbox.
::gets off soapbox::
::Relishes Irony::
Oh, to clarify, it has been an ongoing debate about best rock trio, so Maiden is not an option. And as far as I'm concerned, Genesis and Peter, Paul & Mary are our as well.Sign of aging. the classic rock station in Colorado Springs decided to declare Nirvana as 'classic'. They pushed Rush into the 'oldies'... I wanted to hurt someone.
I heard Motley Crue on the oldies station the other day and wanted to scream.
Sign of aging. the classic rock station in Colorado Springs decided to declare Nirvana as 'classic'. They pushed Rush into the 'oldies'... I wanted to hurt someone.See, I think bands should be officially done before they can be classified as Oldies. If Rush is still touring (which they are), they shouldn't be Oldies yet!
The Rolling Stones are still touring. If they're not oldies, I don't know what is. I don't think touring can be the benchmark.
There, that's better. Old, you say? All in the Attitude, Sonny. All in the Attitude."It's not the age... it's the mileage"
Doesn't help that my oldest girl just had her first job interview today. Ouch!
1-up! First grandson due 8/25 from my oldest daughter. I'm already starting to shop for appropriate nerd baby clothes. (anyone have good links? more threadjacking!!)
Check this one.
http://www.jinx.com/minigeeks/baby/video_games/level_1_human_creeper.html?c atid=12
Sorry I don't know how to link.
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Speaking of avatar changes, what's with the red-bearded step-dwarf avatar?
Use this space as a resource, not a soapbox.
I wrote this Meta-regional for LG called The Prophet's Voice. The pay off was freeing a djinni from imprisonment on the plane of air. The Prophet was a Cloud Giant who had been cursed so she couldn't speak. The djinni became her voice.
Anyhow, this is from the djinni from Flight of the Red Raven. Really reminded me of that character.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I wrote this Meta-regional for LG called The Prophet's Voice. The pay off was freeing a djinni from imprisonment on the plane of air. The Prophet was a Cloud Giant who had been cursed so she couldn't speak. The djinni became her voice.
** spoiler omitted **
That's a cool story, but the avatar still reminds me of a skinnier Fat Bastard from Austin Powers. He looks like he's ready to do some wrasslin.
How much force would you say they are using?
I'll keep on harping on 4e because i don't like the fact that the commercial power of hasbro/wotc is trying to force what is IMHO not D&D onto the gaming world.
Well, let's see... THey cancel Dungeon & Dragon, Hold off releasing the rules and the GSL of almost a year leaving most of thier 3PP's hanging, they turn the GSL into a noose, and then they spend their entire marketing budget tell their customers (I.E. us) that the stuff they've been selling us sucks and we were fools for buying it and now the only way our game will every be good agin is to buy all of our new, poorly playtested, cheaply printed overpriced new books, that are in no way compatiable with that old crap you spent a fortune buying. I call that force. Especially when you are the 800lb gorilla.
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Speaking of avatar changes, what's with the red-bearded step-dwarf avatar?
Use this space as a resource, not a soapbox.
I wrote this Meta-regional for LG called The Prophet's Voice. The pay off was freeing a djinni from imprisonment on the plane of air. The Prophet was a Cloud Giant who had been cursed so she couldn't speak. The djinni became her voice.
** spoiler omitted **
Drat - never did get to play that mod.
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That's a cool story, but the avatar still reminds me of a skinnier Fat Bastard from Austin Powers. He looks like he's ready to do some wrasslin.
:-D
I have said to my direct reports on more than one occasion, "If someone in your command chain doesn't call me fat bastard at least once this week, I am not doing my job!"
And I miss your pony.
It's.. a game.Everyone, just keep repeating this...if it makes you feel any better, you can append ", I should really just relax" to it. Pete Apple speaks truth.
But the truth is, it isn't just a game. All of my close friends are gamers. I met my wife playing D&D. My sister and brother-in-law are both gamers, and my niece and nephew are learning how to play. The game that we play is an integral part of the social aspect of our lives. It has kept us close and in contact for decades. It is as much a part of my life as my family, my job or my faith.
Thank god someone finally took this thread off the path of good natured ribbing and healthy community spirit and dragged it back into the neverending pile of s&!% that is the edition wars. That's just what was needed! Pat yourselves on the backs, you guys rule.
Oh Sebastian, Is your bridal too tight?