I have been touching on this subject in several other recent posts, and I know there have been other threads that have addressed this, but I would like to focus on it afresh.
How many of you have perused the romance subplot in this AP (I refer specifically to a Lavinia to PC scenario, though there are others that make sense)? Of those that did, how did you address it (i.e. Role Play to Rules ratio and what rules)? Then, how did it work out for you in your game? Was it worth it and would you recommend it?
When I ran the STAP, the Lavinia/PC romance was a subplot and I’ll share if anyone wishes, but I’d like to get some initial responses first.
I have been touching on this subject in several other recent posts, and I know there have been other threads that have addressed this, but I would like to focus on it afresh.
How many of you have perused the romance subplot in this AP (I refer specifically to a Lavinia to PC scenario, though there are others that make sense)? Of those that did, how did you address it (i.e. Role Play to Rules ratio and what rules)? Then, how did it work out for you in your game? Was it worth it and would you recommend it?
When I ran the STAP, the Lavinia/PC romance was a subplot and I’ll share if anyone wishes, but I’d like to get some initial responses first.
Well, it's still pretty early on in my campaign, but it seems that three of the PCs have some interest in Lavinia. I've had them make Charisma checks periodically when they're "putting the moves" on her. I've made it clear to them that this is no, "Hey, I rolled a twenty...does she love me now?" type of situation. It's a long-term idea. I don't know of any actual "rules" for romance in D&D. Frankly, the idea of such would be a little bit scary. I think it's the sort of thing that can be mostly role-played out, which NPC reactions being adjusted by some dice rolls here or there.
Not sure how it will all turn out...but I'm interested to see what others have done.
We've got two going on in our STAP (or did): One was the human swashbuckler that helped train Lavinia... working together like that can cause certain things to develop. The other is my mad pirate wizard's affair with Amella. That one is still going (my character is sole owner of the Wyvern and has Amella captain it for mercantile ventures); the one with Lavinia died due to the player leaving and the PC being gacked. Of course, he left behind a souvenir that just came to term... right before she got kidnapped again.
... so my crafty wizard's trying to be listed as the brat's legal guardian "for his own protection", of course. ;)
The party rogue kept flirting with Lavinia, even as he moved into an ever-more serious relationship with the party wizard. This led to some interesting RP opportunities, and some nice tie-ins.
Okay, since everyone is sharing their experiences with the romance subplot, I suppose I can share mine.
My group was all blokes, so I thought it would be somewhat weird. Two of the players decided to try to woo her; the Paladin leader and the Rogue. Logic dictated that she should favor the Paladin, but I didn’t think that was fair to the Rogue’s player, so I wanted to let it play out.
I am unaware of any official rules explicitly geared towards romance, but I figured that romance is inherently a form of diplomacy, and the rules for diplomacy influencing an NPC’s predisposition to the PC are clear. However, this still put the rogue at a huge disadvantage. So I offered the rogue that he could use his Bluff skill instead, thinking this could be like a Jack/Sawyer/Kate triangle – the brave heroic leader versus the scruffy bad-boy.
Surprisingly, the rogue’s player refused the Bluff option. He said that he wanted to win her heart, not seduce her. I have to say that I was impressed. He opted to give it a go with straight CHA rolls, knowing full well that there was no way to beat the Paladin’s Diplomacy score.
However, over the course of time, it became very clear that the Rogue’s player was role-playing the romance much better than the Paladin. The Paladin’s character literally said “I’ll go chat up Lavinia,” and he’d roll his diplomacy. The Rogue, on the other hand, would spell out what he was saying and when (in 3rd person to avoid weirdness). He would give her gifts and serenade her. He had no points in singing, and his rolls were poor, but I judged that Lavinia still found them endearing (something like ‘it’s the thought that counts’). He would invite her to dance (he had no points in perform/dance). To be honest, he spun a great yarn. I know that the way I describe it sounds daft, but he did very well.
In the end, however, my arbitration of the matter was rendered moot as the decision was taken from Lavinia by a cruel fate. Essentially, I never got to see how it would have played out.
Even thought the Paladin got all the rolls, the Rogue played the role. I was inclined to let role playing trump the dice rolls, though I’m not sure how this would have been received by the players, especially the Paladin.
Therein, I think, lies the crux of my query. How do you think I should have handled it, had I had the opportunity?
…When it became apparent that none of the other PCs were making a play for her (this was sometime during SWW) I explained to my DM that Tristan was going to make a move for her. At first this seemed an unlikely match up (Tristan is female) but as the story progressed (and I started working on the Lidu diaries) certain facts seemed to fall into place:1) Lavinia is unattached despite being young, beautiful, wealthy, and from relatively good breeding.
2) in her own words she "thrived at the academy", (an all girls school)
3) Lavinia seems to become somewhat obsessed with adventuring, learning swordsmanship after being taken prisoner in TBWG, and clearly not wanting to become a liability again.
4) Tolin, the NPC leader of the Jade Ravens has a thing for Lsvinia but she shoots him down flat.
Wow! That’s…hmm. I hadn’t considered those points. I think I’ll have to read this diary of yours in great detail. Great detail!
Also, if any of you are fans of Coupling, you know I’m thinking of the episode “Inferno” right now…
In the Lidu diaries Lavinia and Tristan seem to have a mutual connection, but in actual RP my character was the only one that seemed to have any interest in her.
Guy,
Thanks for the link! I'd skipped those diaries before, but having read a few paragraphs, I'm hooked now. Probably finish them tonight. Awesome work!
In my group, the Vow of Poverty druid has a thing for her, and now that the party has emerged alive in Farshore, the two will probably start having bizarre trysts involving summoned animals.
The rest of the party doesn't care about Lavinia in the slightest.
In now that the party has emerged alive in Farshore, the two will probably start having bizarre trysts involving summoned animals.
You realize that 1 round/level means the critter is there for a total of 1 minute at 10th level, right? They're really not there long enough for "trysts." (Not to mention that raping animals is more or less antithetical to most druidical creeds.) Not trying to ruin Lavinia's fun or anything. Just sayin'.
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Even thought the Paladin got all the rolls, the Rogue played the role. I was inclined to let role playing trump the dice rolls, though I’m not sure how this would have been received by the players, especially the Paladin.
Therein, I think, lies the crux of my query. How do you think I should have handled it, had I had the opportunity?
My inclination is similar to yours - roleplay should win out over roll-play. I would have given the Paladin warning that despite his best efforts, the Rogue seemed to be "winning" in the competition for Lavinia's affections, and perhaps explain why.
If the Paladin continued to rely on dice to do the acting for him, then I would have at some key point have Lavinia send the Paladin a thoughtful and well written letter that she just didn't see things working out between them, that the Rogue just "made her laugh" more, and she needed that in her life right now...something like that.
Therein, I think, lies the crux of my query. How do you think I should have handled it, had I had the opportunity?
I think would have added a certain amount of bonus points to the rogue's rolls for his roleplaying (the famous +2 circumstance bonus), but if the paladin came out ahead anyway, I would have let the paladin win. He paid for his charisma score and skill points, why should his prize be snatched away? If I had not already explained what rolls were needed, maybe I would rule for the rogue, but once I told the players what to roll and what the rolls meant, I wouldn't disregard the results of the dice.
...I would have let the paladin win. He paid for his charisma score and skill points, why should his prize be snatched away? If I had not already explained what rolls were needed, maybe I would rule for the rogue, but once I told the players what to roll and what the rolls meant, I wouldn't disregard the results of the dice.
Well, remember that I did ask about what rules people used because I was uncertain myself. I never did spell the rules out explicately to my players. I had them make Diplomacy roles, but after a certain point, rolls just don't cut it. After all, what do the rules say for Diplomacy? After Lavinia goes from "Indifferent" to "Friendly" and from "Friendly" to "Helpful" where do you go from there? Frankly, by the rules of the skill, they BOTH were making thier rolls. Eventually, there has to be something that accounts for Lavinia's preference.
Frankly, the rules, as they are written, don't measure up - they wern't really intended for this. That's why I was asking for advise - any "house rules" that people were using.
I'm starting to think more and more that role playing needs to trump rolls. I don't think the rules were ever intended to trump good role playing.
My inclination is similar to yours - roleplay should win out over roll-play. I would have given the Paladin warning that despite his best efforts, the Rogue seemed to be "winning" in the competition for Lavinia's affections, and perhaps explain why.
If the Paladin continued to rely on dice to do the acting for him, then I would have at some key point have Lavinia send the Paladin a thoughtful and well written letter that she just didn't see things working out between them, that the Rogue just "made her laugh" more, and she needed that in her life right now...something like that.
Thanks. I think that's the way I'm leaning. If I wasn't certain before, I am now.
I'm starting to think more and more that role playing needs to trump rolls. I don't think the rules were ever intended to trump good role playing.
That is a perfectly reasonable position to have in a role-playing game :) Are both of your players aware of your position on this matter? It seems like the paladin player may be thinking that all he needs to do to accomplish a social goal is to roll high enough. If this is not the case, the player could be operating under a handicap that he is not even aware exists. Does he know that you are leaning toward the rogue player because of the level of roleplaying displayed by the player and not because of dice rolls?
That is a perfectly reasonable position to have in a role-playing game :) Are both of your players aware of your position on this matter? It seems like the paladin player may be thinking that all he needs to do to accomplish a social goal is to roll high enough. If this is not the case, the player could be operating under a handicap that he is not even aware exists. Does he know that you are leaning toward the rogue player because of the level of roleplaying displayed by the player and not because of dice rolls?
I'm starting to think more and more that role playing needs to trump rolls. I don't think the rules were ever intended to trump good role playing.
Well, Like I said, this game is no longer running and, as I alluded to, one of the characters was killed making the whole point moot, but I am thinking about starting the STAP again with a new group. This thread has helped me determine that the romance is worth RPing and how to run it. Yes, I will share this information with the group up front. That is to say I will discuss at the very beginnign that I intend to run a Role Playing game and that good RP may very well trump dice roles.
Thanks!
Well, I think we've come full circle on this topic by now. Thanks for the input, all. I recommend those that are interested in how romance can work very well as a subplot in this STAP, head over to Tracer's blog.
By the by, Tracer, is your group all blokes? I know the characters are, but the players?
By the by, Tracer, is your group all blokes? I know the characters are, but the players?
As far as I know...(and I have no intention of asking them to prove it.)
In other words...yes, they're all men. (Although most of the time we behave as boys.)
yes, they're all men. (Although most of the time we behave as boys.)
Naturally. I'd think that goes somehow without saying. Especailly since you spend your time playing RPGs.
But does the RP of the romance become awkward at the table?
But does the RP of the romance become awkward at the table?
Most of the time, no...anytime is starts to get awkward we usually shift to third person talking...that takes the "weirdness" out of it pretty quickly.
But does the RP of the romance become awkward at the table?Most of the time, no...anytime is starts to get awkward we usually shift to third person talking...that takes the "weirdness" out of it pretty quickly.
That’s sort of what we did, too. Like I said, I had the one player who just rolled the dice, but the other really got into the role playing. Somehow, though, by simply saying “Autolycus says to Lavinia…” before going into his act, it was all okay.
But, like I said, it translates in your blog very well.
**** Some Spoilers *****
We have several romances and a bit of a love quadrangle.
Lavinia started out interested in the flirtatious Mitch De'Parley a Noble in hiding from his family (Pure Blood Suel some of which may be in league with the Scarlet Brother)and Mitch's best friend Ishmael Silverpearl a good looking but quiet Half-elf sailor.
After some highly illegal and inappropriate (and embarrassing for Lavinia) escapades with his partner in crime "All night" Josh (a Nobleman disgraced as a result of a Merrivanchi plot) and on the advice of some of the other PCs Lavinia shifted her attention firmly to Ishmael.
Tolin as a result hated both Mitch and Ishmael and took every opportunity to insult and deride them both.
There was some very good role-playing as a result of this. Mitch still loves Lavinia but is loyal to Ishmael. Ishmael always promotes Lavinia's agenda to the party. Mitch wants to know which of the other characters advised Lavinia against him. The other Charters are trying to sort out the mess they created.
Zacote our Olman Druid has managed to romance Lamiae. This causes complications due to Tolin and Zan's intense dislike for the Wyvern's as the PC's call them selves.
Our Halfling Wizard is in a relationship with one of the colonists they took with them (a Widowed halfling)Bahani Softsilk a single mother halfling seamstress it was good in HTBM when Olangaru was up to his tricks.
Wow. It sounds like East Enders!
Wow. It sounds like East Enders!
I never thought of it that way :-) maybe more Neighbours than East Enders.
The only character with an English accent is "All Night Josh" and his is kind of a very drunk Richard E Grant.Lots of character background and complications...... The characters Families play a major roll.
Mitch suspects that his brother was involved in the Scarlet Brotherhood slave raid that destroyed Zacotes village.
Zacote has worked out that the foreigner that married his sister was Mitch's brother.
Neither of them are passing the information on.
Ishmael's adopted father was killed by a pirate called the Cold Captain.
Everything is intertwined.... there will be some resolution at Scuttle Cove.
I can imagine that when Zacote finds Lamiae and some enslaved villagers at Scuttle Cove he is going to go ape sh*t.
Go check out A gift for a lovely lady… in Tracer’s blog. It is the best example I’ve ever seen of how well romance can be done in a D&D campaign. My favourite part is where Diamondback can’t speak because she has a lump in her throat, but she desperately tries to call after the object of her affection. It’s almost tragic.
Go, read it, I’m serious.
I ran the game, and the warlock/cleric of Dagon/ur-priest fell in love with Lavinia from the start. Naturally she shot him down because he's unbelievably evil, but it was funny having him leave her dead squid on her front porch as he tried to woo her.
I ran the game, and the warlock/cleric of Dagon/ur-priest fell in love with Lavinia from the start. Naturally she shot him down because he's unbelievably evil, but it was funny having him leave her dead squid on her front porch as he tried to woo her.
Um, yeah, not exactly the sort of thing I was talking about, but thanks for sharing.
Go check out A gift for a lovely lady… in Tracer’s blog. It is the best example I’ve ever seen of how well romance can be done in a D&D campaign. My favourite part is where Diamondback can’t speak because she has a lump in her throat, but she desperately tries to call after the object of her affection. It’s almost tragic.
Go, read it, I’m serious.
Cool will do.
Go check out A gift for a lovely lady… in Tracer’s blog. It is the best example I’ve ever seen of how well romance can be done in a D&D campaign. My favourite part is where Diamondback can’t speak because she has a lump in her throat, but she desperately tries to call after the object of her affection. It’s almost tragic.
Go, read it, I’m serious.
Cool will do.
Great. Then let me know if you agree. I think Tracer would love some feedback, too.
Brilliant - Tracer really crafted a tragic background to Diamondback. Tracers blog is very cool he has put an incredible amount of effort into it. His players should be very thankful that they have a DM that puts so much into the game.
I had her down as a professional Scarlet Brotherhood assassin to freek out Mitch (who thinks the SB are after him). I just did not have any luck with the dice in the fight.
She was killed by a critical from a great crossbow bolt in the back by our Fighter/Rogue Sniper.
There's some fun stuff there TracerBullet42, I always love seeing how another group runs the same story.
Thanks! It is interesting to see how the same game can be so different as you move from group to group. That's why RPGs are so great!
This romance is slightly different then your standard love affair because Tristan and Lavinia are both female.
[cough, sputter, gulp] Is it getting hot in here [tugging shirt collar]. It’s almost an “inferno” in here. (see my comment from Thu, Jul 3, 2008, 09:35 PM above)
There's some fun stuff there TracerBullet42, I always love seeing how another group runs the same story.
Not to toot my own horn or anything but I'm also writing about a rather long drawn out romance in my campaign journal between Tristan Lidu and Lavinia Vanderboren. This romance is slightly different then your standard love affair because Tristan and Lavinia are both female. It's slowly starting to heat up now (ToD) but doesn't come into fruition until the start of CoBI.
All jest asside, mate, do you have a "downloadable" version of your "Lidu Diaries"? I only ask for ease of reading's sake.
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All jest asside, mate, do you have a "downloadable" version of your "Lidu Diaries"? I only ask for ease of reading's sake.
Sadly no, I only host them on this site, and printing them off as is would get pricey. I haven't crunched the numbers but I think it's somewhere around 7 pages on average per entry (and there's over 40 entries) so thus far the lidu diaries are closing in on fantasy novel length.
If I knew someone who could host and/or set that sort of thing up I'd be willing to allow a download able version to be available.
When I first starting reading them, I copied them to a Word file for reading when I was off-line (since I don't have wifi). Ended up being something like 330+ pages (of course, proper formatting and such would likely reduce it). Sadly, when I was done I didn't keep the file.
When I first starting reading them, I copied them to a Word file for reading when I was off-line …
Yeah, I was hoping to not have to re-invent the wheel, but, I guess that’s what I’m going to have to do.
However, over the course of time, it became very clear that the Rogue’s player was role-playing the romance much better than the Paladin.
What a great story! Sounds like you have a pretty cool group.
Like other commenters above, I think role-playing should always be rewarded over "roll-playing." And I would have given the paladin's player some warning that this is how things were going to go: if he stepped up in the role-playing department he would win, but otherwise the rogue was going to carry Lavinia's heart. After all, she has a good Sense Motive score, and an *awesome* Diplomacy -- so I think she'll know when somebody's just going through the motions with her.