Rogue capstone ability

[Diodric]

So I need some help, 'o denizens of the forums. To cut right to the chase, I'd like help coming up with a new rogue capstone ability instead of Master Strike. I'd like to have something more skill and less combat related for those rogues who aren't all about the combat scene. I'd like something maybe lock and trap related, or maybe something diplomatic for our silver-tongued friends out there, but frankly, I've got nothing to go on.

Thanks in advance

[Ethelbeorn]

I dunno if it were you, who had this idea about rerolling a diplomacy or a bluff check? -Seems good to me.

Just some spontanious ideas...

-I'd like something Sleight of hand related too. Maybe the Ability to ready a knife as a free action, gaining one sneak attack per encounter. (But that is encounter related again, sorry played too much Assassins Creed :)

-What about a bonus on strengh checks for opening a door, once disable device didn't work. The barbarian is just slamming his shoulders agains the wood, while the rogue uses a quick kick against the weak spot...

-One could transform "use rope" into a capstone ability. I always missed an ability which allowed my thrown grappling hook being secured on the first try.

-Make one or more knowledge abilities "class abilities"

-Make Ride and/or handle animal class abilities (yes, Zorro is a rogue!)

[Dagalk]

how about giving them an option at that level, either the master strike, and a couple skill abilities. i think a nice ability would be something that lets them sense traps automatically. they get to roll an automatic search check any time they come withing 30 ft of a trap, if they succeed they automatically know what kind of trap it is and how it works, giving them a +5 to disable device. or maybe the rogue is always considered to be taking 10 on search checks, so they can always sense any traps.
then something for the quick talking rogue. like being able to take 20 on a diplomacy of bluff check as they try multiple angles and quick talk their way into or out of a situation

[Ugwump]

Dagalk wrote:

how about ... they get to roll an automatic search check any time they come withing 30 ft of a trap

Interesting. Or maybe the 30 ft area as a move action?

[Selgard]

The capstone of the fighter is to automatically succeed all critical threats, and they get +1x crit damage.

While I don't mean to directly compare it to the rogue, it is useful to see how powerful one of the other main melee classes is for it's capstone ability.

Myself, for a "non combat" option, I would go one of two ways. Either something to do with sneak/hide, or something to do with locks/traps etc.

For hiding: Hide in Plain Sight. Lower level rogues don't really need this bump in power, but it makes a nice solid capstone ability and doesn't require anyone to invent new rules.

or

trap/lock: I hate to say an automatic success, but maybe:
automatic free check passing within 10 or 15 feet for secret doors/traps. Remove the chance of a trap blowing up in your face on a failed check.

-S

[Robert Brambley]

Diodric wrote:

So I need some help, 'o denizens of the forums. To cut right to the chase, I'd like help coming up with a new rogue capstone ability instead of Master Strike. I'd like to have something more skill and less combat related for those rogues who aren't all about the combat scene. I'd like something maybe lock and trap related, or maybe something diplomatic for our silver-tongued friends out there, but frankly, I've got nothing to go on.

Thanks in advance

Faster stealth.

I think currently there's a penalty for taking a normal move while sneaking (-5) and a big penalty for double move (-20). How about removing the -5 penalty for taking a single move and halving the penalty for a double move.

Robert

[Selgard]

It occurs to me while sitting here reading the Hobbit that the thing rogues are best known for, their stealth, has far too many ways to surpass it.

this sense and that sense, and this ability and that ability.. Bah.

An option for their capstone could be:

Unrelenting Stealth.
A rogue choosing this ability is undetectable by tremorsense, blindense, and scent. A creature possessing one of those abilities gains a +2 to perception checks to discover the rogue A creature possessing more than one of those abilities gains a +3 bonus.

-S

[Ugwump]

Selgard wrote:

Unrelenting Stealth.

A rogue choosing this ability is undetectable by tremorsense, blindense, and scent. A creature possessing one of those abilities gains a +2 to perception checks to discover the rogue A creature possessing more than one of those abilities gains a +3 bonus.

-.-

I realize that this is Fantasy Role Playing, but even manga-type ninja can't just waltz in the front door.

Lets keep it "balanced", now. The Invisibility spell would give +50 detection vs. all the aforementioned, and is immune to See Invisiblity.

[Ugwump]

Ugwump wrote:

I realize that this is Fantasy Role Playing, but even manga-type ninja can't just waltz in the front door.

That's what Disguise skill is for. Throw in the Linguistic (Forgery) and you're golden.

(Just remembering my Bard.)

[Selgard]

Well, the problem right now is that a rogue is rendered "visible" to any opponent who has any of those powers.

A nice capstone would be a removal of that.

Keep in mind this still lets the rogue be seen normally using perception checks. it just gets rid of some of the "autospotters" that make all the work and skill ranks the rogue has invested, worthless.

-S

[Kalis]

Selgard wrote:

An option for their capstone could be:

Unrelenting Stealth.
A rogue choosing this ability is undetectable by tremorsense, blindense, and scent. A creature possessing one of those abilities gains a +2 to perception checks to discover the rogue A creature possessing more than one of those abilities gains a +3 bonus.

-S

Or the rogue could just take the Darkstalker(LoM) feat at first level(which any stealth focused character should) and get the same effect, only the creature gets no bonuses to perception.

[Selgard]

Which.. isn't OGL. And therefore will never be printed in Paizo's materials.

-S

[Kalis]

Yes, but Pathfinder is supposed to be able to support my 3.5 material(with a few changes for simplification). That is part of the draw of PFRPG. And nobody wants a capstone ability that anybody can pick up at level 1 by burning a feat(which you get more of in PFRPG).

[Neithan]

There are presumely 3 zillion feats and prestige classes out there, a great number of them on "distinctly different power levels than others". If you try to make rules that balance all of them, it's practically impossible to ever get something working finished. And even if you would manage, there comes another book that makes it all broken again.
So the PF Rulebook should only be balanced with the PF Rulebook and ignore everything else. If gms and players like to add stuff from other sources, it's their choice and not fault of the PF rulebook when balance breaks down.

[Shadowdweller]

I agree that a stealth ability seems more flavor-appropriate to the rogue class than a death attack (not to mention that it would encroach less upon the Assassin PrC's niche). How about this as an alternative:

Stealth Mastery: A rogue of 20th level may attempt a Stealth check as a swift action regardless of whatever revealing actions may have been performed earlier in the round. Furthermore, the rogue is capable of concealing himself with a successful Stealth check from all sensory abilities such as scent, blindsight, tremorsense, etc at a -2 cumulative penalty per extraordinary sense. This ability does not, however, negate the need for cover or concealment in order to successfully hide.

Or is this overpowered?

[snobi]

It's not overpowered because as a level 1 thief, I have greater invisibility and the Darkstalker feat.

My vote is to keep Master Strike, but get rid of the save. Or at least change the save from INT to DEX.