I like the idea that they only eat certain parts of their slave stock as delicacies, then turn the mutilated victim out to hard labor. Maybe they only eat human eyeballs in mushroom sauce, (leading to a population of blind human slaves used as masseurs, weavers, or maybe just target practice), or only the noses of gnomes or the hands of dwarves.
Interesting idea. Dwarven hands would probably be rather tough, like sweetbreads...best give them a soak in rothe milk first, to get them soft and tender...
Drow Diet?
As for what anything in the underdark eats, or most dungeons for that matter, is one of the things that has puzzled me for years. You almost need to create an entire subterranean ecosystem. Huge caverns that span miles and are filled with varying types of fungus and crazy animals that graze on the fungus. Blind deer, blind mice, blind rabbits all feeding on the fungus and the strange animals that hunt and eat them.
The ecosystem would be warmed and nutrition would come from geysers, fumaroles, steam vents, and hot springs. Some of the caverns would be put over to commercial farming and the drow have armies of slaves to work the crops and harvest the food. They would also buy grains and other materials from the surface world.
I agree that there should be some cannibalism involved, both in-species and out-species. In-species it would primarily be low value males or defeated competitors. Out-species it would be nearly any sentient race with surface elves and humans of high station being the preferred 'treat' and likely kept alive in a special cell in reserve for a feast day.
I love the degeneracy and mutation that come with the drow. The drow have always had a touch of a decadent aristocracy about them, and the draegloths from FR add a Lovecraftian edge of physical decadence following moral decadence.
Why are driders the shunned failures of Lolth? They should be a natural process, the result of drow inbreeding. Driders are often pampered and spoiled by their parents, becoming even more selfish and demanding and clawing their way to the top of the heap more often than not.
Those drow mutants rejected from society should be the really hideous ones.
I like for drow to be twisted evil sado-masochists out of some weird Swedish porn video or something, like in 1e. I liked what Gygax did with them later in his "Gord the Rogue" books -- some of them worshipped Graz'zt instead of Lolth -- just as evil, but minus the spiders.
And I really liked the drow (er, "moredhel") and elf relationship in Raymond Feist's novels: a good drow returns to the forests, finds his ancestors' descendants, and becomes a high elf. An evil high elf seeks out the company of demon-worshippers, and becomes a drow. That way there's no "good" drow, and we're rid of the endless Driz'zt clones.
Oh, what pisses me off? Excessive use of "z"s in their names. Eclavdra Eilserv was fine. Not a "z" in sight. She wasn't Driz'zt from Menzzobazzan, or whatever, which sounds to me like a bunch of bees in flight. And apostrophes should be banned from ALL proper names, unless they're supposed to be Hawai'an.
And I really liked the drow (er, "moredhel") and elf relationship in Raymond Feist's novels: a good drow returns to the forests, finds his ancestors' descendants, and becomes a high elf. An evil high elf seeks out the company of demon-worshippers, and becomes a drow. That way there's no "good" drow, and we're rid of the endless Driz'zt clones.
Did you read my post? That's cheating :)
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There are a lot of demon lords involved with Golarion. Partially because I'm A) the editor-in-chief and B) obsessed with demons.
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In any case, of the 30 or so I've got so far, I'd say roughly a third are familiar names to D&D fans (like Pazuzu, Baphomet, and Orcus), about a third will be familiar names to occultisim fans (like Dagon, Abraxus, and Haagenti), and about a third will be new to everyone (like Cyth-V'sug, Deskari, and Zura).
How much can you do with Demon Lords expanded upon through Wizards stuff? Orcus/Pazuzu are obviously public names, but how much can you expand on them without conflicts?
If the Demon Lords are a free-for-all (which they should be, if only to encourage the 'multiverse' aspect of all the various campaign settings, 1st, 2nd and 3rd party.), then you better have Graz'zt. He's always been the coolest demon lord.
Did you read my post? That's cheating :)
Oops... I missed it, because of my usual practice of skipping any post with a sm^rf in it!
Well, there you have it, then. Two for Feistian "drow become elves instead of becoming emos."
1. I love drow being paranoid plotters with a million plans in place, and not always plans that are the "best" choice, but are wonderfully convoluted plans that may advance them, but will definitely screw their enemies.
2. I think drow houses definitely need to constantly be jockeying for position.
3. The chaos of drow society underscores that "Law" as in rules doesn't always equate to "Order," as in universal Law as an alignment. Drow have rules that everyone knows you are suppose to break, but not if anyone catches you. Its planned and intentional hypocrisy.
4. Initiation rites among "graduated" drow from various professions involving unspeakable acts.
5. Driders are abominations to the drow. The drow are, first and foremost, elves, and they see themselves as more or less perfect. Any alteration of form is a shift away from perfection, no matter how much physical power that shift might grant.
6. Males should be good spies, scouts, and arcanists, females should be the priestesses and war leaders. Males might perform to a lesser extent in the female roles, but they should never be in a real position of power.
7. I liked the rather twisted introduction of drow sexual mores in the War of the Spider Queen books, that being that drow only have a prohibition against producing offspring with siblings, but not, you know . . . other things.
8. Undead and fiends should be relatively common sights in drow cities. As far as markets go, there should be all sorts of underdark creatures in the bazaars, either as merchants, mercenaries, or slaves. Derro, duergar, grimlocks, orcs, goblins, ogres, trolls . . . it should be like the Mos Eisley cantina of the Darklands.
9. I kind of liked Ched Nassad, you know, before . . . I also liked Mearimydra the way Eric Boyd described it, an Underdark city that had a cavern that opened onto canopies of membranes that allowed for trade with deep water evil races in the Moonsea. Of course, that was his idea before it was moved south from the Moonsea region to just under the Dalelands, which made that depiction less useful.
10. Drow should eat logical stuff in the Darklands . . . rothe things would make sense, as would fungus, but I can picture drow eating things like oozes kind of like how some cultures eat dangerous things in the real world, so of proving how tough and crazy they are. I can see them eating sentient things as well, and I really liked Elaine's "torture tenderizing" idea. Also, I believe in Elaine's novels she pointed out that drow liked shellfish and "seafood" from underdark lakes and rivers, and I kind of liked that idea too.
Oops... I missed it, because of my usual practice of skipping any post with a sm^rf in it!
Well, there you have it, then. Two for Feistian "drow become elves instead of becoming emos."
Heh, it's just that I have seen plenty of drow drawn just like smurfs color wise, although often they are more purple.
It's not that Drizzt sucks (haven't read so I don't really know) it's that the emo drizzt wannabe types suck. Plus Feist Mordredhel are kick butt nasty elves and the whole calling thing is cool.
Creative Director
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Oh, what pisses me off? Excessive use of "z"s in their names. Eclavdra Eilserv was fine. Not a "z" in sight. She wasn't Driz'zt from Menzzobazzan, or whatever, which sounds to me like a bunch of bees in flight. And apostrophes should be banned from ALL proper names, unless they're supposed to be Hawai'an.
While I disagree about your theories of Z (the main drow badguy house in Second Darkness has a z in their name), I do agree 100% about the apostrophe thing. I've allowed myself ONE (1) name with an apostrophe per editor in Golarion. Mike got his in Korvosa with the high-priestess of Pharasma in Korvosa. I got mine in the demon lord of fungus (Cyth-V'sug). I don't think the others have used up their apostrophe names yet.
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Creative Director
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How much can you do with Demon Lords expanded upon through Wizards stuff? Orcus/Pazuzu are obviously public names, but how much can you expand on them without conflicts?
If the Demon Lords are a free-for-all (which they should be, if only to encourage the 'multiverse' aspect of all the various campaign settings, 1st, 2nd and 3rd party.), then you better have Graz'zt. He's always been the coolest demon lord.
That's mostly a case-by-case basis. In some cases (such as with Orcus and Jubilex and Baphomet and Pazuzu) we can stay pretty close to the classic incarnation, since Wizards allowed them to become Open Content through Necromancer Games' Tome of Horrors. For others, like Graz'zt, we can't do anything at all; he's 100% closed content since his stats haven't been released in an open product and his name was made up whole-cloth for D&D. And for yet more, like Demogorgon, we can use the name but we have to come up with different appearances and powers, since the D&D incarnation is not open; in this case, we'll most likely not use that demon lord at all (such as with Demogorgon; we've set up Lamashtu as the "Boss Demon" instead of him).
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Creative Director
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It's not that Drizzt sucks (haven't read so I don't really know) it's that the emo drizzt wannabe types suck. Plus Feist Mordredhel are kick butt nasty elves and the whole calling thing is cool.
These words are very, very wise.
Drizzt is a great, incredible, and timeless character who is diminished each time someone apes him with a clone. And Feist does indeed kick butt with his Mordredhel.
Hate: Drizzt.... Salvatore should be beaten with his own books. :P
Hate: Drizzt.... Salvatore should be beaten with his own books. :P
I think that Drizz't as a character has alot of potential, but I think Salvator is still too much in the mindset of TSR's oppressive guidelines that he was turned into a whinny vampire (You know the type that spend hours pissing and moaning about how much it sucks to be a vampire, Ugh!) In the last trilogy, I was hoping that Drizz't would end up with the moon elf chick he was working with (Can't remember her name off the top of my head) because his pseudo-relationship with Catibrie was tedious. And now that Salvator has finally gotten Drizz't and Cattibrie together, the world blows up, and the arch jumps 100yrs into the future so she's dead! *Blackdragon blinks...taking several deep breaths...* Sorry, It gets a little hard to stop once it gets rolling.
I do agree 100% about the apostrophe thing. I've allowed myself ONE (1) name with an apostrophe per editor in Golarion.
In case I haven't said it lately -- you rule, James.
Oh, what pisses me off? Excessive use of "z"s in their names. Eclavdra Eilserv was fine. Not a "z" in sight. She wasn't Driz'zt from Menzzobazzan, or whatever, which sounds to me like a bunch of bees in flight. And apostrophes should be banned from ALL proper names, unless they're supposed to be Hawai'an.
You shouldn't have a problem with our drow stuff, then. At a quick glance, there's only one drow house name that currently has a "Z" in it, and non have apostrophes. I do hope "V"s don't piss you off though... there's a few of those, but I don't think more than 1 per word so far.
Forewarning, though. The big drow city... it's a "Z" name. Sorry man.
A couple of years back, someone posted a link on a message board to an article about a custom in some remote parts of South China. Apparently they hang up live dogs and beat them before slaughter, believing that fear improves the flavor of the meat. It's easy to get indignant about the mistreatment of animals we consider pets, but consider the geese that are force-fed until their livers are ten times normal size (fois gras), or the veal calves who endure short, cramped, miserable lives in the American midwest. If humans IRL can treat "lesser creatures" with such cruelty and cavalier disregard--and we do--imagine what customs the drow might follow, and what they might consider a delicacy.
Okay, that's twisted. NOTED!
It's my opinion that Golarian's drow should remain monsters: powerful, mysterious, conniving, devious, and more than a little sadistic. No good drow gods, no secret society of good-aligned drow, no ebony-skinned maidens dancing neckid under the wistful, watching stars. I'd like to see a culture that's distinctly different from Menzoberrazan. I'd definitely like to see a history that adds layers of nuance to the elf/drow animosity, and perhaps explores why drow decided to go underground rather than escape to another plane.
I'm totally behind all of that. I really want to go back to what make drow scary. The bickering and the infighting is going to be there, but they're also completely amoral demon worshipers in a wholly alien environment largely motivated by generations of war, racial-superiority, and self-righteous hatred. Nothing is "too far" for the drow. Why would there be a limit to what they can do or indulge in? Their gods don't tell them no, their history proves their superiority, only the whims of more powerful drow can keep them down--and they might even be overcome with the right intrigues or weapons. I also really hope that you'll all be pleased with the new spin we're giving on the drow-elf animosity and why elves fear drow so much. There's a lot of awesome stuff in store and this thread is proving really helpful! So thanks all!
And by the by, have I mentioned how cool it is to have Elaine Cunningham chiming in on this! Thanks for reading (and even more for writing) Elaine!
I do hope "V"s don't piss you off though... there's a few of those, but I don't think more than 1 per word so far.
Wes, you're a man after my own heart, a gentleman and a scholar. Fantasy cookies for you and James both.
Here's to Vrv'ius Vev'vorv, drow ranger from Mev'vev'vev!
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I would like to see more exotic gear for the Drow. I find adamante armor and weapons pretty lame.
There are so many exotic an properly disgusting possibilities of how they create their gear:
- they could use a fleshcraft and form their gear from living creatures. With their magic they can shape living creatures to their will. A human can be shaped into the form of a sofa. A Halfling makes for a nice stool. Orcs are good for robust wardrobes. But it takes a Master Crafter to form a Giant into a suitable House without killing it. Sounds familiar? Well these ideas borrow heavily from Brian Lumleys Vampire World books.
- The could use obsidian or other stone for their weapons and armor. Heavily enchanted they are hard enough and may even have qualities that metal simply can not have.
- The Drow have a way to bind souls into their weapons and armor instead of enchanting them with magic. A mighty Longsword might hold up to ten sould, bound together in eternal torment. A plate armor might take more than twenty souls.
Using this idea, the Drow can use a lot of magic items and most players will not think of using this loot. They can free the souls by destroying the items. So instead of magic items the players might get EP.
Drow as the vile, evil, villains of adventures are awesome and perfect. Almost elves but not quite, they have the (rightful) reputation of being extremely deadly.
No one sees just one drow and says "bah, it's just one drow! we can take 'em".. No, everyone is cautious. Drow are crafty and just 'cuz you only See one doesn't mean there only Is one.
What do they eat?
Probably very nearly anything except other drow- and even then I could see them partaking of a particularly nasty foe who they'd fought with for decades (if not centuries). They aren't exactly strong on traditional morals afterall.
Drow as PC's annoy me, personally, because they go against everything that makes Drow, Drow.
Players tend to want all the nice lovely drow buffs, but then want to play them either like a certain novel character we know, or like Sun elves who have a deep dark tan. "what do you mean the villagers hate me? I'm a GOOD bad elf!".
The novel character, meant to be one of a kind, was then two of a kind (sort of.. the 2nd one was never as goody-two-shoes as the original), and PC's everywhere clamored to be the outcast-hero who still needed a group. (and who had SLA's and SR. and dual wielding scimitars.. and where is that cat?)
The Good Drow should be as approximately rare in a campaign as a good aligned Minotaur or Gnoll. Yes, they happen, but it should be the extreme rare event that occassions comment from the group and illicits trouble throughout the civilized world wherever they go.
They shouldn't be a dime a dozen, where every PC adventuring group has at least one dual wielding drow ranger in the pack.
-S
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I agree: No Good Drow. They should represent sentient evil. They sould be a reminder that no matter how nasty maurauding monsters can be, they dont hold a candle to the depths of depravity that an intelligent, sapient creature is capable of.
But Neutral Drow, sure, occasionaly. I can see those as the occasional player character, though to play them right you have to suffer through CBD (compulsive backstabbing disorder), but, you get to bask in the reflected glory of a damn fine Magnificent Bastard. Pimp hat optional.
But also following this out, I'm sick of seeing surface elves played out as a "Goodly Race". Goodly how? They are imperious, self centered, racist egotists. Their cluture usually feels like Rome during the decline. "Our culture is so superior to yours!" as their society crumbles and their people go into hidding. Yuck!
I personally don't mind the idea of non evil drow. Not shining lawful good, just not all of them have to be spider worshiping sadists.
In my FR campaign I have a sect of Vhaeraun followers who have returned to the surface, and have built a society where males and females are equal. They Will still kill you at the drop of a hat, but now when they get done, they can go home to their loving family.
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I like to see Drow that work well in groups with other Drow. If the players see a lone Drow (who is not wearing green and using 2 scimitars) they should be very afraid. There will be other Drows covering this lon Drows' back.
But how does this "lawful" working in groups go together with the "chaotic" outlook of the individual Drow?
I envision the Drow society as the ultimate competition to be on top.
The Drow as a race see themselves as th pinnacle of intelligent races. All other races will eventually be either slaves or exterminated like Vermin. Even though the Drow sometimes trade with other races on an equal basis, they only do it because they are not strong enough to subjugate them -yet! So it is the first and (un)holiest goal in life for every Drow to work towards the best interests of their race. It does not matter, that there are many conflicting views of how the best interests are to be achieved. All that matters is that the Drow will evetually rule the world(s)!
The second goal in every Drow's life is to advance himself in the society and better his position (or stay on top). A Drow would murder his own mother without any regret if he would gain prestige and power from that deed. On the other hand, if the mother allows herself to be killed by her brood, she was not fit to have the position she had in the first place.
But every intrigue or murder has to obey certain rules:
1) They should suspect that you did it, but never know for certain that you did it.
2) What you do, do it with style. Rather than ambush your brother on the street discreit him so he has to commit suicide in front of the family. Or even better, let your mother discredit your brother. Than show the public that your mother was the one responsible. The let your sister kill your mother in a revenge-duel. But as your mother's dearest you prpared her weapon with magic poison. And why waste the rest of the dose if you can hlp your sister too? After the dust settles you find yourself as the Head of the Family! And because you did it in style, even your enemies will respect you!
5) Don't resort to old tricks. Be creative in bettering your position. Use violence sparsly but be free with lies and deceit.
4) Make sure that every deed shows that you care for the Drow as a race and that you are worthy to lead others to better the Drow position.
What do you think?
Quite a sizeable part of the non-anglocentric would disagree with you on "no apostrophes in proper names". ;p
Well said, Lukas! I should clarify that I have no issues at all with the apostrophe in "d'Artagnon," for example. It's there for a specific purpose, and belongs perfectly well. I wouldn't think of removing it.
But how many monster names in the later Monster Manuals consist of a slew of random letters and meaningless apostrophes, just because someone thought they looked "cool"? That's the sort of thing I have issues with. Maybe that's some kind of psychological problem on my part; I don't know. But it just irks me.
Ah, the drow. I've always found drow to be inherently fun. All you have to do is take some completely innocent thing and imagine the drow version. The drow PTA, drow astrology, drow televangelists, the possibilities are endless.
Anyhow, back on topic.
I think there are a few things that stand out about the drow to me.
1) They're seriously messed up. Their society as a whole embraced damnation so long ago that any traces of their former existence are either lost or corrupted beyond recognition. Especially the histories.
2) Attitude. Drow have a massive superiority complex, but it's not enough that they know they're superior; everyone else has to as well. Image is very important to them, and anyone whose image is letting the side down is probably in trouble.
3) Schemes. No drow is ever quite happy with the situation as it stands; there's always some way in which things can be twisted to their benefit, be it a few less rivals, a few more slaves, or the utter subjugation of the surface world.
I think history is absolutely vital with the drow. As a fallen race, it's important to understand why they fell; what their motivations were at the time, and whether they actually got what they wanted (or thought they wanted) out of it. And of course, there's the opportunity to detail the reasons for their hatred of the various other races.
Favourite drow city... It's a bit of a trick question really. After all, the only city that's been detailed to the extent that it's widely known is Menzoberranzan. For better or worse, it's pretty well the default drow city. Heck, the only other one I can actually name is Ched Nasad. Truth be told, I'd quite like to be able to add a few distinctive cities to that list.
Having posted some initial thoughts, I shall now actually have a look through the thread, and perhaps do a little brainstorming on the topic of cities.
Some character background stuff from the time I ran a Drow PC. Perhaps it might help with deciding how parenting and sibling rivalry works in this culture:
When he was a baby:
I lie in my crib. Something gnaws at me. From the inside. I cry. No one comes. I cry, again and again. The thing inside me grows worse, more horrible. I roll over, my hands clutching the bars. It eats me. I need. I need. I need food to feed it. To quiet it. My tummy churns. Torchlight. My daddy. The bottle. The milk will quiet the monster. Daddy never comes in time to keep the monster away. Daddy fills the bottle. The bottle. I want it. Daddy doesn't give me the bottle. I cry. He reads. The book for him but no bottle for me. The scent of oil and smoke fill the room, suffocating me. I cry. He turns a page, his lips moving like he's reading a story. I cry. Mother comes. Daddy doesn't see her. She picks up a metal stick. It hisses softly. Daddy turns. Mother hits daddy with the stick. She hits him again. Bright red. Her eyes yellow. Daddy takes a nap. He doesn't give me the bottle. She gives me the bottle. She always gives me the bottle. The monster goes away. But it will come back. It always does. But mother will help me.
When he was a toddler:
Desperana was home! She sat at the table, her thin hands strategically placing the bright grey figurines representing her side on the three level set. Her nails click with each movement. I struggle to reach the top, the yellow dragon figure almost slipping out of my hands. The dwarves in the underground are easy, but it's hard to balance when you stand on your toes on a stack of books. Mother looks up from her chair by the fire, watching us. We almost never play this game together. So mother watches us play. Desperana always gets the others to play the forces of light. But nobody is home. So I get to play, but I have to be the elves and the heroes. We begin, moving figures forward, up and down. But I can't reach my dragon to move it. How can I win if I can't reach my dragon? Mother sees my weakness and laughs softly. I can't reach! Desperana sees me stretching and begins her attack. I can't protect my other pieces. Her eyes narrow with some foreign emotion, then her hair slides down to mask her face. She methodically eliminates my paladins, my mages, and my elves. But she grows more hesitant with each move. All that's left is the dragon, yellow and unreachable. She beats me. Again. I burst into angry tears, the wet salt hot on my cheeks. Mother gets up from the chair, her hair like molten silver. The smell of hickory fills me and I cry again. Desperana looks down. Mother grabs my shirt, lifting me into the air. She slaps me. Hard. "There's no crying in this House." She slaps me again and I wail, the wet bursting out of me. She slaps me again. "No crying." I struggle, kicking my legs, wriggling, but my face keeps getting wetter and wetter. She continues to slap and each time she repeats, "No crying." I am so wet. Again. I scream and holler but the tears won't stop. Again. I can't make them stop. Her eyes are yellow. Again. I can't. Again. Then, something cold comes inside of me. The cold freezes me slowly. Again. The ice forms, cracking, in my chest. I lose consciousness. When I awaken, I am back in my crib. My face no longer hurts and Desperana's delicate fingers run through my hair. She sings softly to me, so softly. The ice cracks, just a bit, but when she leaves, it settles again. My chest constricts and the ice hidden there hardens once more.
When he was a boy:
One night I lay in my bed on the top bunk. It must have been during a school break as my brothers were home. I was snuggled warmly in bed, my beloved yellow blanket held snuggly in my still pudgy hands. I must have slipped out of my trance into a real sleep in the heat of the noon sun, for the next thing that I remember was staring across the way into the red eyes of my elder brother, Zavier. He looked at me steadily, matching my gaze mockingly. I, of course, deferred to him, lowering my gaze immediately. I saw that my blanket had fallen to the ground, a pool of yellow in the midst of a difuse sea of gold. I began to clamber down, awkwardly, so clumsily that I stumbled. I fell, bruising my elbow and yelping in pain. The others awoke from their trances, their red eyes clear in the hazy light of the sun burning through the curtains. All watched me, none spoke. I reached out into the light for the blanket. It burned me! My bankie, for which I had endured endless mocking and abuse from my brothers, scorched my fingers! The sun's rays, weak as they were in that room, were too strong for my shadow-kissed skin. Again and again, I reached out to my love and I was scalded by the golden pool. They laughed, louder and louder. I did not cry. I could not cry. But my brothers saw my weakness. Zavier was the one who pounced, leaping down from his perch to snatch the blanket away from me. They passed it from hand to hand, always it was just out of reach. Finally, tiring of this game, Zavier took my bankie and rubbed it in the dust, dirt and grime of our barracks, tarnishing it. He then held me down mashed it in my face. I lay there passively, taking it. They left me there covered in that desecrated and foul cloth, trapped in its filth. When it was quiet, I crawled to the water room. I scrubbed myself thoroughly, rubbing the hard brush over bruises and dirt alike. The pain was sweet and soothing. I controlled it.
Pretty sure drow eat rothe (underground cattle) and mushrooms...
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I don't have all that much to add to the comments above - drow should be sinister and depraved, a race feared by all.
Even though Menzorerranzan is pretty cool, I got tired of Lolth and spiders real fast. To my mind, Erelhei-Cinlu is the superior drow city. However, the drow I use for my homebrewed Greyhawk campaigns do not have black skin - instead, they are pale, gaunt elves with overdeveloped sensory organs; they look like any surface-dweller would after living underground for a few millennia. Quite a few leave their homelands and wander the surface world, so neutral or even good drow are not unheard of - however, there are no good drow societies and no neutral or good drow deities. Since drow look almost identical to normal elves, most people have no idea they are dealing with a rogue drow.
I've also taken a lot cues from the Warhammer Dark Elves - they are monster-breeding, slave-taking, flesh-warping degenerates with a strong tendency towards cultish fanaticism. Their deities are demon lords and powerful yogoloths, with Juiblex and the diseased Oinodaemon being deities of choice. Driders are cool, so I kept them; however, they are not outcasts, but are rather seen as powerful creatures worthy of respect. Also, there are a few other monster-bodied drow-combo creatures as well. The use of symbionts is rife among my drow, so most of their champions wear living armour and have odd tentacular things poking out of their shirt collars. Half-golems are popular as well - a truly powerful drow lord will have both grafts and symbionts.
As for culture and society, I use the 'Rome during Caligula' model - government-enforced degeneracy, large-scale blood sports in the arena, innumerable secret societies, constant slave-taking raids, incessant, lethal plotting between the noble houses and, finally, a strong sense of cultural and racial superiority and destiny. They are highly refined, and at the same time completely depraved. They are constantly plotting against each other, but instantly pull together when threatened from the outside. Thus, everybody hates the drow - just the way it should be.
After that last post, I vote that Vatnisse be appointed special consultant to Paizo in charge of all Pathfinder drow.
After that last post, I vote that Vatnisse be appointed special consultant to Paizo in charge of all Pathfinder drow.
I concur, though I would subract the following, "Quite a few leave their homelands and wander the surface world, so neutral or even good drow are not unheard of - however, there are no good drow societies and no neutral or good drow deities." from the otherwise excellent description.
However, the drow I use for my homebrewed Greyhawk campaigns do not have black skin - instead, they are pale, gaunt elves with overdeveloped sensory organs; they look like any surface-dweller would after living underground for a few millennia.
So they have big eyes and ears and most have rickets? ;)
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However, the drow I use for my homebrewed Greyhawk campaigns do not have black skin - instead, they are pale, gaunt elves with overdeveloped sensory organs; they look like any surface-dweller would after living underground for a few millennia.So they have big eyes and ears and most have rickets? ;)
Heh heh. Not quite like this, but you get the picture.
After that last post, I vote that Vattnisse be appointed special consultant to Paizo in charge of all Pathfinder drow.
Why, thanks! I've actually never needed to use drow very often as a GM. I just make sure that the PCs have heard a few suitably nasty stories about them, and, when they do encounter drow, that they are really twisted. After that, it sorta takes care of itself.
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So, what makes you love the drow. You know, aside from the creuly, dark sexiness, white hair, and pointy ears. Where do you think they've been done right?
The thing that I have always loved about the drow is that they are Machiavellian thinking incarnate. Ideally drow should be cruel, sadistic, and murderous, but is a subtle, seductive way. A proper drow should be very similar to the Lady DeWinter as portrayed by Rebecca De Mornay in the 1993 version of the Three Musketeers.
What drow stuff in the past has pissed you off?
Too much gothy angst as they "evolved." Too much of the "we're not evil, just misunderstood and bitter" working it's way into the drow and their spiritual offspring.
Okay, so here's an addendum to my original question. Who has done drow right? In fact, for the sake of this conversation, lets say who's done evil elves right. There's been the Forgotten Realms drow, the Greyhawk drow, dark elves and dark eldar from Warhammer, lets even throw blood elves from WoW in there. Which of these, or others I'm missing, are your favs?
Okay, so here's an addendum to my original question. Who has done drow right? In fact, for the sake of this conversation, lets say who's done evil elves right. There's been the Forgotten Realms drow, the Greyhawk drow, dark elves and dark eldar from Warhammer, lets even throw blood elves from WoW in there. Which of these, or others I'm missing, are your favs?
Here's the thing. A lot of authors get hung with having "ruined" the drow, without looking at what the author really did with the drow in the book. In other words, Drizzt and Liriel always get mentioned, but the other drow in the same books don't.
RAS did a great job of showing drow rivalry and social climbing, as well as creepy rituals and the like, in the Dark Elf trilogy, Drizzt and Zaknefein aside (since they were intentionally suppose to be the "odd men out.")
Similarly, Liriel's friend tries to kill her out of jealousy, she has one persistant enemy in an insecure drow preistess trying to prove herself, and her father killed her mother so he wouldn't have to deal with the fact that a female would have so much influence over her own daughter. Tons of great stuff on how drow normally act, and Liriel is suppose to be the exception.
I think more than anything "marketing" has gotten the drow wrong. TSR asked Ed Greenwood to make a good drow deity in the original Drow of the Underdark, it wasn't a naturally occuring thing that a designer did. TSR and WOTC are the ones that have had books with a good aligned drow published year in and year out in lieu of other characters from the same author.
I'd also say that the first half of the War of the Spider Queen novels "got it right," before the last half degenerated into an incomprehensible story about flip flopping drow converts and some impenetrable story on what Lolth does every few hundred years inexplicably. Pharaun is probably the protypical evil drow male, and that's probably why he went over so well.
As far as getting it wrong . . . RAS' recent books where he introduces another "good" drow, and Lisa Smedmen's Lady Penitent series which actually goes out of its way to overplay drow stereotypes for both good and evil drow, and firmly ends on the "everything is all about Lolth" note in the end.
To be honest, I like a lot of City of the Spider Queen just because it has matriarchal drow priestesses that aren't Lolthites causing lots of havoc.
Okay, so here's an addendum to my original question. Who has done drow right? In fact, for the sake of this conversation, lets say who's done evil elves right. There's been the Forgotten Realms drow, the Greyhawk drow, dark elves and dark eldar from Warhammer, lets even throw blood elves from WoW in there. Which of these, or others I'm missing, are your favs?
Michael Moorcock. The members of Elric's race are perfect drow in every way but skin color. Sophisticated, pleasure-seeking, backstabbing, graceful, beautiful and deadly as all get out.
What do I like about the drow? I like them being dark, mysterious, cruel and evil. As others have said they are known for their treachery. They are supposed to be cunning elves who have decades and centuries to plan there revenge. They are also a magical people; dark forbidden magic being common place should be there. An idea I have used for my own drow city is that drow levitate to get to places, since nobles are said to have the ability to levitate, they have created several areas in the city where you can only get up there by levitating.
As for what drow favorite city is? Menzoberranzan is the one that has been detailed the most. But I prefer the city I made up, Cheth Rrhinin. A city of Lolth worshipers that lived in all kind of web based housing, including trap-door like webs. If you lived in a house that was made out of anything other then webs, you were either a non-drow or poor.
What do I not like about the drow? Drizzt clones for one. Yes, Drizzt himself is cool but he has created countless clones who wish to be like him. Good drow in general seem to be counter to what the drow are. I hope that anything dealing with the drow keeps them being the evil creatures they are.
What do drow eat? That is a difficult question. First what is available down below in the Darklands? I would say fish would be a staple of their diet, but also things like eel would also be available. A lot of strange deep sea creatures might be sold in drow markets. I have also read that they eat rothe, yak like creatures. Elaine’s “torture tenderizing” idea is neat and fits well with the drow in my opinion. I can also see bats being eaten by the drow.
Who has done the drow right? I have only seen the forgotten realms version of the drow so I can only comment that I have enjoyed what I have seen from them. Yet I would like to see more about the drow who are not the odd man out. It seems like they are not that much mentioned in the novels and stories.
I would have to say the Greyhawk drow are the best! But, still like the others. If I was to redo them, I would add elements of all of them, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, etc. I think they all have something I like and would help support the other. As for (good) drow you always have to have a balance. Which a wizard of reknown supports in Greyhawk. Balance
Much as the idea of the drow holding gala balls, sophisticated Masquerades that degenerate into sadomasochistic orgies while a sobbing elf maiden roasts alive on the spit is an appealing image for the arisocratic cruelty of drow society...I have to put in a vote against the drow as a cannibalistic society. Because between goblins, orcs, ogres, ogrekin, rakshasha, wendigos, and presumably Lamias and Giants, I think the cannibalism aspect is starting to get played out. It shouldn't be necessary to make every humanoid monster culture cruel gluttons to show how depraved and OMG EVIL they are.
That said, aristocratic cruelty, Machiavellian scheming, and sadistic sexual depravity are the best defining aspects of drow societies in my opinion, and I can certainly see them skinning capture enemies for leather. Also, if you stick with black skin, make sure this is reflected by illustrating them with actual literal ebony-colored skin, most emphatically not blue, or purple, or tanned.
I also find that I have to oppose those lobbying against allowing any good drow. Naturally, they should be a rarity and far, far, far from the norm. Naturally, the DM should strive to avoid allowing characters who are mere pale imitations of Drizzt, an excuse to get nifty stat buffs in exchange for cheap angst. Certainly, drow society should not be diluted in the slightest from the nightmares of Marquis de Sade. But Outsiders, Undead, and perhaps Abberations, are the only creatures that I will accept as always and irrevocably being of a certain alignment. To say that a good drow is inherently an impossibility would be as ridiculous as claiming that no surface elf could ever be evil. I'd require a relatively extensive backstory from a would-be drow PC, but I would never dismiss it out of hand.
Okay, so here's an addendum to my original question. Who has done drow right? In fact, for the sake of this conversation, lets say who's done evil elves right. There's been the Forgotten Realms drow, the Greyhawk drow, dark elves and dark eldar from Warhammer, lets even throw blood elves from WoW in there. Which of these, or others I'm missing, are your favs?
If the original modules constitute as Greyhawk drow.. then Greyhawk got it right.
Okay, so here's an addendum to my original question. Who has done drow right? In fact, for the sake of this conversation, lets say who's done evil elves right. There's been the Forgotten Realms drow, the Greyhawk drow, dark elves and dark eldar from Warhammer, lets even throw blood elves from WoW in there. Which of these, or others I'm missing, are your favs?
I know, I keep rambling . . .
FR Drow were done fairly right, in regards to evil drow, but the biggest issue in my mind was that RAS pushed the "monotheistic" button a little too hard. Ed Greenwood tried to ratchet this back in Drow of the Underdark when he pointed out that Menzoberranzan was more Lolth centric than other drow cities, but the "Lolth is all" thing seems to have stuck, to the degree that WOTC seems to really love the idea and reinforced it both in FR and in the "core" 3.5 DotU.
Greyhawk drow are pretty much the archetype, and as far as 3.5 goes, I loved all of the references to Eclavdra in various books, like the Epic Level handbook, and the Fiendish Codex I, and Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. Part of what I liked about her is that she went "free agent" on Lolth but managed to get back in her good graces.
There is another evil elf race in FR that I think might be cogent to this discussion as well. I really liked the Fey'ri in FR, right up until they appeared as the main bad guys in the Last Mythal books. When they first showed up in the Hellgate Keep adventure, they were an evil race of elves that refused to "reform" when the other Vyshaan were eliminated or "mainstreamed," and embraced the whole "better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven" thing by interbreeding with demons and such. Heck, they were even portrayed as really interesting villains in Lords of Darkness in 3rd edition, again, until they ended up being led by the nose like 3rd rate villains to help set up yet another big change for the Realms to soften it up for 4th edition.
At first I was having a hard time getting anything useful for drow from the Blood Elves, but then it hit me. I don't see all drow as being addicted to magic. I picture females pretty much being addicted to power and control. But what if males are obsessed with magic because its the only way they do feel in control? They become addicted to magic because it makes them forget that they are under the thumbs of the priestesses. Even drow males that don't have any talent for magic could obsess over finding magical trinkets that will give them even a slight edge over anyone that might rival them . . . kind of an interesting spin for me, and I think it might be fun.
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In any case, of the 30 or so I've got so far, I'd say roughly a third are familiar names to D&D fans (like Pazuzu, Baphomet, and Orcus), about a third will be familiar names to occultisim fans (like Dagon, Abraxus, and Haagenti), and about a third will be new to everyone (like Cyth-V'sug, Deskari, and Zura).
Random thoughts;
Baphomet – all female Drow cult, the ‘Mothers’ have interbred with Minotaur males for many generations, and give birth to Drow females, Minotaur males and, rarely, Drow males that are treated as slaves or destroyed at birth. Over centuries, the female Drow children have begun to show aspects of Minotaur heritage (increased Constitution and an increasingly ‘Tiefling’ appearance, including vestigial horns, furred forearms and lower legs, and, rarely, hooves instead of feet). Their Minotaur sons have also grown darker in coloration, and often have red eyes and a surprising cunning, but otherwise are typical for their race, despite their parentage. ‘Mothers’ spend most of their lives pregnant, willingly, and are considered to rule their extended families, with each ‘warrior-son’ or daughter of breeding age adding to their powerbase. (Naturally, daughters of breeding age don’t relish being sub-ordinate to their own mother, and begin grooming their own warrior-sons for the day when they become the new ‘Mother.’)
Sadly, Demogorgon and Yeenoghu won't be appearing.
Demogorgon – dwelling in jungles and swamps, the Drow in service to Demogorgon are savages and bestial. Preferring weapons that can be used to capture prey, such as nets, snares and whips, these savages prefer to bring captives back to their communities, where they hold bloody celebrations, which the prisoners would not survive, even if they were not promptly eaten at the end of the ‘festivities.’ From an early age, these Drow file their teeth, and love nothing more than to end a prisoner’s life with a vicious bite attack.
Drow in service to Demogorgon are most commonly Barbarians, but Adepts, Sorcerers, Druids and Rangers are also common paths taken, with every community having one Bard, who serves as storyteller and shaman, setting new and bloodier goals for the faithful. With mud and blood-caked dreadlocks decorated with feathers, fangs and other body parts taken from local wildlife, the shaman exhorts his followers into greater acts of excess, until the entire tribe collapses in exhaustion, bellies full with the flesh of their prisoners.
Drow children raised in such an environment are driven away from their mothers soon after learning how to walk, and are a constant menace, even to unwary adults, as they band together and take whatever they can to survive. Exactly how they are recognized as adults is unclear, but at a certain point they begin to move among the adults, usually after some display of force or naked aggression that garners a grim form of respect among their peers. Male and female Drow in these communities appear to be equal in physical capabilities, and they do not have any difference in status, despite their otherwise predatory nature. A female is as likely as a male to viciously assault another Drow, and the males of these tribes who do not regard a female as being an equal threat are unlikely to survive to maturity.
The communities of these Demogorgon-worshipping Drow are either built in underground warrens or ancient stone ruins (for those living in the jungles) or stilt communities, floating barges or homes constructed high in the trees (for those living in swamps). The jungle-dwellers always are accompanied by baboons, who are considered sacred animals, and not to be slain (although they are not treated well, by any means, and often are driven off or tormented with beatings). Warriors often paint their faces with red and blue lines, resembling the facial coloration of a mandrill.
Swamp-dwellers are more likely to have an affinity for a unique breed of octopus that lives in the brackish swamps they inhabit, and scarify themselves in patterns of grayish-blue dots and swirls, administered through use of octopus venom, and requiring many days to create (and recover from) for the simplest patterns (and years, for the more intricate designs). The jungle-dwellers make less use of whips (although they do use snares and nets), and are known to use a form of gourd as weapon, a rotten fruit that is left to ripen in the high branches until it is ready to burst, then gently carried until it is ready to use as a malodorous projectile, so vile that it can momentarily incapacitate and sicken some creatures, particularly those with keen senses of smell.
Yeenoghu – The ornately-masked Drow who serve Yeenoghu are thought to be a small sect, perhaps numbering only in the dozens. Rarely is more than one seen, and they travel among communities of Gnolls, inciting them into more violent and organized depravity than normal. Many of these Drow use necromantic magics to keep their unreliable charges at bay, and only male Drow are ever seen in this capacity, as it is theorized that Gnoll matriarchs will slay any female Drow who attempts to influence their pack-leader status… Gnolls are often content to raise their own herds (or, more commonly, lay claim to specific territories, and ‘harvest’ from ‘their’ herds as hunger demands), but tribes under the ‘guidance’ of these nocturnal advisors are more prone to raid human settlements and engage in more brutish activities.
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Okay, so here's an addendum to my original question. Who has done drow right? In fact, for the sake of this conversation, lets say who's done evil elves right. There's been the Forgotten Realms drow, the Greyhawk drow, dark elves and dark eldar from Warhammer, lets even throw blood elves from WoW in there. Which of these, or others I'm missing, are your favs?
I loved the Everquest Dark Elves. They were made from the first King and Queen of the High Elves kidnapped by the god of Hate and twisted. He was such a Lawful Evil god that it really gave them that rigid society of intirgue and politics that I could never really understand with worship of a demon.
I think Eberron's drow were terrible, they weren't really Drow to me.
Okay, so here's an addendum to my original question. Who has done drow right? In fact, for the sake of this conversation, lets say who's done evil elves right.
So, not really from D&D but from fiction. Raymond Feist... I guess I mentioned him before so that's cheating. I agree that Moorcock did an awesome job with the Drow.
Another great portrayal is not so much drow as Fey, Jim Butcher has an entire Elf/ Fey mythology, his 'elves' are not so much evil as simply amoral. They take what they want from each other and from lesser races not out of a desire to cause pain but because they have no goal or purpose in life beyond their own pleasure and lust for power. In a lot of ways this is similar to Moorcock's Elrick.
Much lesser known is a series by Sheri Tepper's called the True Game. Humans come to inhabit a world where a nearly immortal race called Eatsies dominate the land. The Eatsies and the humans war and the Eatsies wind up splitting as a race. Half of the race is envious of the humans and become obsessed with the idea of destroying the humans at all costs. They are so deluded by their envy their plot has world ending implications.
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I think drow should be absolutely white and pale. Perhaps slightly translucent, with dark blood in their thin veins. They should look like something bleached from a few millenia without the sun. Black drow are a habit, and carry a wealth of associations. You did it for bugbears. Do it for drow. I know the art is already done. Too late for such a change.
Yeah, pale-skinned with bulbous eyes like blind cave fish!
As for the existing art; maybe she's wearing bluey-black sun-screen (SPF 150!)?
I would definitely suggest decoupling from the more specific details, and focusing on the underlying themes (this is generally wise anyway, from the standpoint of copyrights, etc). I like the notion of dark elves that worship various demon lords, definitely.
As to the whole 'drow are monsters' bit, as well as Emo-Drow syndrome...
I'll definitely echo the suggestion of Feist-style changing of sides. I like this very much. I think it allows for the dark elves to remain 'monsters', and at the same time, allowing for subtlety, nuance, and a greater degree of depth. I don't think the potential to not be evil necessarily undermines their monstrous or evil nature... otherwise, demons and devils would be the only true monsters out there.
The physiological differences could have to do, therefore, with the demonic influences on them. An elf who then succumbs to the corruption of the demons might be then altered physically into one of the dark elves. Conversely, a dark elf that seeks redemption might be able to purge that taint, likely with the aid of elven clerics and various rituals, etc. Both instances would probably be extremely rare, but possible. Thus, when you see a dark elf, you know they're evil, the same way that you see an evil cultist in full regalia, or a lich, etc... it's safe to shoot first, shoot again, shoot some more, and ask questions via Speak with Dead. ;)
Ultimately, I think it also prevents the otherwise inevitable "but I'm different" streak that spawned Drizzt in the first place, because no matter how much you define them as monsters, someone will eventually want to play one. :P
This would also, incidentally, answer the question of where the dark elves came from, too.
As a side note:
For any who are interested in 3.5 drow material, the FR source book
"The Shining South" has an entire surface nation that is run by half(and quarter, and even smaller bits) of Drow and such, who have semi-regular contact with a nearby drow subterranean city.
Incidentally, they are Loviatar worshippers if I remember correctly rather than Lolth.
-S
For any who are interested in 3.5 drow material, the FR source book "The Shining South" has an entire surface nation that is run by half(and quarter, and even smaller bits) of Drow and such, who have semi-regular contact with a nearby drow subterranean city.
Incidentally, they are Loviatar worshippers if I remember correctly rather than Lolth.
Yeah, Loviatar rather than Lolth. Always wanted to do something in the southern reaches of Faerun.