I've bought the 4th ed core rules but I'm still miffed at WoTC for various reasons. Killing Dragon and Dungeon, general decline in most 3.5 rulesbooks for a long time (fluff stuff was good ie Fiendish Codex 1&2, Drow of the Underdark), and the way 4th ed has been handled along with the GSL. 2 weeks ago when I bouhgt 4th ed I was keen on D&D insider and I went along to sign up to it and yeah........
I like Pathfinder alot from what I've read but haven;t played it. I've run a couple of 4h ed scenarios and have my 1st 4th ed game coming up on Sunday with my gaming group. Long story short I think I'm planning on buying Pathfinder even if I never play it.
1. I was very impressed with Dungeon under Paizos reign (Dragon not so much)
2. Not very happy with WoTC.
3. Throw Paizo some $$$$$$.
Pathfinder Chronicles looked great but the price wasn't right for me and I lived outside the US.
Did I mention I'm not very happy with WoTC. Anyway how would you define brand loyalty or the way a company runs aspects of itself?
I'm not very happy with wotc, either. And by that, I mean "I will never spend a cent on their products."
I think the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting hardcover isn't that expensive. The price is normal for a Campaign Setting that size I'd say. Of course, I get 15% off because of the Pathfinder Advantage, and with the Dollar's exchange rate, it will not be that bad at all. (I'm from Germany, by the way, so no domestic shipping rates for me, either)
Anyway, have you tried local gaming stores? Local online gaming stores? Local amazon? (if you have one - where are you from, anyway?)
If you want a nice preview, consider getting the Gazetteer. It's basically a "Campaign Setting Lite". Also, if you run published adventures, I cannot recommend the Pathfinder Adventure Paths more.
Anyway, be sure to get the Pathfinder RPG Alpha (it's a free PDF available right now) and the Beta (also a free PDF available mid August - but it will also be available in print for $25) And see whether you'll like where they take D&D 3.5.
About Brand loyalty:
wizards has made a textbook example of how not to do it by intentionally getting rid of so much aspects of the game their old custoemrs liked, by an abysmal marketing effort for 4e, by taking many things we loved (like the magazines), and by being less than courteous to us.
On the other hand, Paizo could hardly do a better job: Their stuff persistently rocks, they listen to the fans (they consider posting on their own message boards part of their job and do it willingly and with obvious enjoyment, not with a "you guys should be grateful that I sacrificy my valuable time to talk with you peons" mentality) and they obviously care for the history of D&D.
They have tons of fresh and refreshing ideas, try to work well together with other gaming companies, treat everybody with respect, and they just know how to get people to give them money, keep giving them money, and never regret it.
As you can see by my tags, I subscribe to nearly everything (except the modules - and that's mostly because I'm already about one adventure path behind and just wouldn't find the time to run those modules as well), and get a lot of the stuff that isn't in an subscription, including licensed material like the miniatures and dice.
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I have a tremendous amount of respect for the way Paizo runs its company. They respect their customers and seem to be gamers writing for gamers. I make a living delivering print products and marketing them and I understand their business and how they choose to run it.
They are responsive, polite, gracious, and forgiving of the foibles of their fan base.
Their product is also outstanding and a joy to judge.
I am playing both PfRPG and 4.0. I can convert Pathfinder modules quickly and use the aesthetic of that design to drape narrative over the pallid but well muscled flesh of 4.0.
Paizo rocks. They believe in the OGL. They believe in the power of community. Buying their product is investing in that community.
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Zardnaar, first off, welcome to the boards. I see you have a small number of posts so far and I can't wait to see it grow!
This is a good community even though the recent 3.5 vs. 4E stuff has gotten a bit ugly (myself included), and we try to be helpful and respectful of people on the boards. If you ever have a question about anything, just ask and many of us will jump to help.
On the subject.....
I came to the conclusion that I wouldn't be supporting WOTC anymore also and figured out what I spent a month on D&D products. I then took that amount (and actually went a little lower!) and became a Pathfinder Superscriber. That means I subscribe to Pathfinder (Gamemastery) modules, Pathfinder Adventures and Pathfinder Chronicles. The total cost is less that what I was spending per month on my Dungeon subscriptions, Dragon magazines, a supplement book and a pack of Wizard's minis. I usually spent more on extra mini packs or an additional supplement book, and I decided that Paizo was working too hard and making too good of stuff for me to not show support. So now I am actually saving money on a monthly basis with my subscription to Pathfinder because I decided not to pay WOTC/Hasbro anymore money. The money I save usually goes back into Paizo for Figures from Pathfinder or for dice or something, but I don't mind because I feel that every dollar I spend is helping to promote a company that truly cares about it's customers and listens to their thoughts.
My suggestion is for you to subscribe. Whether you decide to subscribe to the Adventure Paths, Modules, Chronicles, or any combination of the preceeding, it really doesn't matter because everything you get will be well worth your money and will help to promote a truly caring company who's goal is to give you the best quality gaming products that you've ever seen.....and no I don't work for Paizo, I am just a big fan.
FH
Wow guys. Just wow. For everybody here, really, honestly, thank you. I've always felt like Paizo tries to run itself less like some coporate behemoth and more like a game store. We love what we make, we love to talk about it, and we're SUPER excited when you like it! That's kind of the point after all. (Honestly, the point is to make games we love and want to use in our games, but it speaks SUPER well of all you that you have the good taste to like it too ^_~).
But really, yeah, thanks all! And welcome Zardnaar!
Director of Brand Strategy
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Wow guys. Just wow. For everybody here, really, honestly, thank you. I've always felt like Paizo tries to run itself less like some coporate behemoth and more like a game store. We love what we make, we love to talk about it, and we're SUPER excited when you like it! That's kind of the point after all. (Honestly, the point is to make games WE LOVE and want to use in our games, but it speaks SUPER well of all of you that you have the good taste to like it too ^_~).
Well, Wes, I think that's the key. You guys are the kind of gamers that we are, and so making what you like is the same as if we were making stuff ourselves (sort of), which is every gamer's secret (or not so secret) dream. So we get to live vicariously through your stuff, and isn't living vicariously a large part of RPGs anyway?
BTW, what is that ASCII emoticon supposed to be?
<===Paizombie
Paaaaaaiiiiiizzzzzooooooo!
Paaaaaaiiiiiizzzzzooooooo!
Durnit! I was gonna make that alias.
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Wow guys. Just wow. For everybody here, really, honestly, thank you. I've always felt like Paizo tries to run itself less like some coporate behemoth and more like a game store. We love what we make, we love to talk about it, and we're SUPER excited when you like it! That's kind of the point after all. (Honestly, the point is to make games we love and want to use in our games, but it speaks SUPER well of all you that you have the good taste to like it too ^_~).
But really, yeah, thanks all! And welcome Zardnaar!
I will always point out a fantastic product, unfortunately they are few and far between. Paizo is one that I will always try to tell people about. Another, although vastly different is my Dyson Vacuum cleaner. I'm a stay-at-home dad and ex-construction worker and that vacuum(any type) is the best you could buy. You can waste $300 dollars on a P.O.S. Hoover or you can spend an extra $100 and have the best, easiest, most powerful cleaning tool you ever imagined.....
Sorry...Paizo is an incredible company and they deserve to do well, I just hope I can send a few people into the fold.
Long story short I think I'm planning on buying Pathfinder even if I never play it.
Count me in this group.
Another, although vastly different is my Dyson Vacuum cleaner. I'm a stay-at-home dad and ex-construction worker and that vacuum(any type) is the best you could buy. You can waste $300 dollars on a P.O.S. Hoover or you can spend an extra $100 and have the best, easiest, most powerful cleaning tool you ever imagined.....
That’s really odd, I had this exact thought two days ago while I was mowing the lawn (What else is there to think about out there?), and I don’t even own one…
Thanx guys for the welcomes but I've been a member for a while and just usually lurk.
We played 4th ed today and 2/3 players liked it alot, and the other one kinda liked it with reservations.
As a DM I loved it. I took about an hour to draw a map, 2 hours to stock it and throw in a few traps, the PCs had 8 encounters during the day (on 3.5 maybe 3- 4 in a session). Whatever else one can say about 4th ed its great to DM- better than 3.5. It was hilarious smacking my PCs around with goblins as the 4th ed MM in effect had rogue types, barbarian types and adept types all statted up for you. PCs also got a shock encountering a Dragon at level 2 and encountering groups of 10 monstert that wouldn't totally suk or kick your butt (love minion rules).
I think I'll buy Pathfinder and i the group gets sick of 4th ed we might go back to 3.5/Pathfinder. WoTC design crappy adventures compared to Paizo. I also plug Paizo alot at the WoTC boards for the hard core 4th ed haters (I like 3.5 and 4th shocking I know).
I'd say it's a manga-style happy wink. (Don't turn your head.)^_~).BTW, what is that ASCII emoticon supposed to be?
It's true. And it's probably a little too cute and 16-teen-year-old-girlish for my own good, but it's a habit I picked up way back way back in my hardcore otaku days. Cest la vie. Checks it outs.
I will always point out a fantastic product, unfortunately they are few and far between. Paizo is one that I will always try to tell people about. Another, although vastly different is my Dyson Vacuum cleaner. I'm a stay-at-home dad and ex-construction worker and that vacuum(any type) is the best you could buy. You can waste $300 dollars on a P.O.S. Hoover or you can spend an extra $100 and have the best, easiest, most powerful cleaning tool you ever imagined.....
Ummm... do they have a subscription plan? I kinda need a new vacuum...
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Me too. I about gagged the first time I vaccuumed with our and pulled up all the pet hair and gruge that our old vaccuum wasn't getting. I sing our Dyson's sucktastic (in a good way) glory.
EDIT: and to be on topic, I feel like Paizo ferments customer loyalty like good Scotch. May not be to everyone's taste, but those of us who like it, love it!
Is there room for another this RPG company orgy? I brought enchanted lotions.
Is there room for another this RPG company orgy? I brought enchanted lotions.May be in poor taste, but... ** spoiler omitted **
Your idea of possible poor taste is my idea of brave genius. I'll never forget that spell name, my friend.
Is there room for another this RPG company orgy? I brought enchanted lotions.May be in poor taste, but... ** spoiler omitted **
*casts Bigby's reprimanding earcuff*
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/ THREADJACK
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As far as brand loyalty goes -- it's somewhat meaningless when you first become a customer. Buy the stuff that looks good; buy the stuff you hear is good. If that company provides great product AND great service all the better.
I choose not to purchase from WotC because of the very poor product and the very, very poor service.
I choose to purchase from Paizo because of the very strong product and the very strong service.
-W. E. Ray
Strong products and service are certainly motivators. But, I've got an unrequited crush on Vic and Lisa's home theater room. If you haven't seen it, don't look. Nothing will ever be good again. Spring blossoms will smell of concrete. Punch will taste like liquid dust. The sun itself will turn a pallid grey.
Then I took a closer look at the Pathfinder RPG alpha, the Pathfinder adventure paths, and all the other stuff, and I found that the quality is there, the new mechanics are interesting, the adventures are solid....
Wow, high praise from someone who really knows his stuff! Thanks a ton Darrin! Whatcha workin' on these days? (hint, hint)
...Then I took a closer look at the Pathfinder RPG alpha, the Pathfinder adventure paths, and all the other stuff, and I found that the quality is there, the new mechanics are interesting, the adventures are solid.... I've always had a tremendous amount of respect for Erik Mona, and it looks like he's done an amazing job developing Pathfinder into an amazing brand...
Very well said, Darrin. I think you speak for many of us here and it would be great to see you working with Paizo. I'm only waiting on the print copy of "Reign of Discordia" to run a sci-fi game again for the first time since Star Frontiers!
I look forward to supporting Paizo in the coming months and years. My last WotC purchase was the 4th Ed PHB. Disregarding minis(which I haven't even been buying much anymore, and I get the ones I do on the secondary market), it was my last WotC purchase. Not due to any grudges or idealism, but they currently are not putting out products that gain my interest. Three companies do: Dreamscarred Press, Green Ronin, and Paizo. I'm a psionics nut, a superhero nut, and a 3rd edition nut.
The strange thing? I think I fall into the demographic that 4th edition was aimed at. I'm 19, just finally gaining disposable income, and I was bored in the final days of 3.5. Things were getting old, because there was always a "No, you can't." rule somewhere, unless of course you bought the new $30 book that has three lines of text saying "If you do this, you can."
I got charter subscriber because the final days of Dragon intrigued me. Money's been tight, but as soon as I can wrangle some up, I plan on purchasing some of the supplements to the Golarion world. Mainly because Paizo doesn't seem to be hiding behind a veil of "We know what we're doing, trust us." Paizo is putting out products saying "We think this is FREAKING SWEET, give it a shot. No, seriously. Have the intro free. Here's some designer commentary. Talk with our editor, he's a dinosaur junkie."
Paizo could do two things to make my opinion of them higher. More orcs and employ me. Seeing as PF 11 is coming out, that just leaves one thing...
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I have never been a BIG fan of WOTC (I prefer to call them WizCo). But I have been a fan of Paizo since day one. They prodiced noticably better magazines, even from their first issue.
As far as being gamers like us... yeah damnit... Golarion is sooooo much like my homebrew world it isn't funny. So close I gave up on my own world, which I had been writing up for one day publication. Why bother now?
But for brand loyalty. It only goes so far for me. I LOVE Paizo stuff, but if they ever (lord forbid) start cranking out crap just for some quick cash, then I am gone. They have elevated my expctations and continually meet and exceed them. Some day I will be disappointed, and that is not big deal. But if quality ever takes a back seat then, well... let's not even think it.
That being said... PAIZO ROCKS!
*drops to knees and repeatedly bows*
"I'm not worthy
I'm not worthy
I'm not worthy
I'm not worthy
I'm not worthy"
But for brand loyalty. It only goes so far for me. I LOVE Paizo stuff, but if they ever (lord forbid) start cranking out crap just for some quick cash, then I am gone. They have elevated my expctations and continually meet and exceed them. Some day I will be disappointed, and that is not big deal. But if quality ever takes a back seat then, well... let's not even think it.
Of course, brand loyalty has its limits. It's a trust we put in them, and if they abuse it, they lose it.
But right now, I will gladly buy any Paizo product sight unseen, and will not mind telling everyone I meet and who could be interested about it how great their stuff is.
I hope to get a demo going in AUgust to expose new people to PfRPG. Our LGS is prejudiced against 3PPs, so I may not be able to.
Eh, do it anyway! Spread the love! :D
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I hope to get a demo going in AUgust to expose new people to PfRPG. Our LGS is prejudiced against 3PPs, so I may not be able to.Eh, do it anyway! Spread the love! :D
I'd love to, but without their support it just won't happen. I have no way to contact local gamers without the LGS. We could play at my home or where ever, but would gain more attention at the LGS.
It is sad you have to fight the LGS just to draw attention to another game that would also benefit them with sales.
AUgust
For a moment, I thought this wasn't a typo, but some sort of special event for Monte's Arcana Unearthed. ;-)
Maybe Paizo should plan something for sePtember.
I had been a loyal WotC customer and did not buy any third party products. Even the cancellation of the Dungeon & Dragon magazines did not phase me - in fact I was not even a subscriber of those magazines.
Then came the 4E announcement and at that point I started being interested in what shape the new edition will take on. The more I read, the more I realized that although WotC clearly does have excellent game designers, they have deliberately decided to shift the game both in terms of mechanics and in terms of flavor to a completely different demographic of which I am not a part of. I felt saddened by this, because I realized that the game I enjoy playing will soon not be supported and the new game that replaces it is not to my liking. As a result, I am no longer a WotC customer, not out of spite or anything, but for the simple reason that they no longer make products I am interested in buying. Hopefully, this will change eventually with the 5th edition, when they might decide to come back to some previous game concepts, but we will see - that is still surely many years away.
Luckily, then came the Pahtfinder RPG announcement. I read the Alpha, liked what I saw and realized that PFRPG will likely become the heir to the D&D tradition I like so much. Hence, PFRPG will be the first '3rd party' purchase I will make and more will likely follow. I have heard much good about Paizo adventures in particular, but I make and run my own adventures and campaigns, so those are probably not really appropriate for me and I will wait for the PFRPG instead.
Me too. I about gagged the first time I vaccuumed with our and pulled up all the pet hair and gruge that our old vaccuum wasn't getting. I sing our Dyson's sucktastic (in a good way) glory.
EDIT: and to be on topic, I feel like Paizo ferments customer loyalty like good Scotch. May not be to everyone's taste, but those of us who like it, love it!
This has to be the first time I've seen the word 'Ferments' in a compliment.
I'm going back to school in the fall. Then, after I finish my degree in English after all these years, maybe Paizo will have a position for me (double hint!) In the mean time, I have a couple largish things tentatively going on to keep me busy during the rest of summer. I'd absolutely love to do something for you sometime, and we should talk about that once I get this other stuff cleared off my plate.
Hey man, best of luck! And do give us a yell if you're still sane when you come out on the other side.
Reading posts by Erik, Lisa, Vic, etc. and I might as well be my own posts when it comes to rpg gaming philosophy, and the style of the business I'd like to run if I were doing so.
I'm very happy to be supporting Paizo.
It's also good to see them post here. Not just "officially" but just to chat and such, but also officially to chime in on the "here's how we meant that to be".
A drastic change from a customer service line that changed depending on who you talked to :)
Cheers for PAIZO!
Long live Paizo!