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agreed (that Speak Language should be split out of Linguistics).
I also think of the character that has no "skill" per se with the mechanics of Language, he just grew up learning an extra one or two. This guy wouldn't know how to decipher something if the key hit him in the face - his family just always spoke (whatever) around the house.
This skill seems a bit too simplistic for it's own good. I think that the need to slow down learned languages is a must otherwise you could have a player fluent in all known languages pretty quickly.
Maybe set a max based on INT, and even with that you learn the languages extremely fast. Perhaps learning at everyother rank or for every three ranks you learn a new language.
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Language always was a mechanical oddity in 3.x. However, now that we have a Linguistics skill, perhaps we could utilize it to learn new languages. As an example, you could make a Linguistics check to learn a new language. You couldn't try again until your skill was raised, usually by a new level. Complex languages, like Draconic or anything to do with outsiders, would have high learning DCs, while simple languages, like Common or Orc, would have low DCs. You could use the skill to identify dialects of languages you know, too. Hm, I like this idea...
Language always was a mechanical oddity in 3.x. However, now that we have a Linguistics skill, perhaps we could utilize it to learn new languages. As an example, you could make a Linguistics check to learn a new language. You couldn't try again until your skill was raised, usually by a new level. Complex languages, like Draconic or anything to do with outsiders, would have high learning DCs, while simple languages, like Common or Orc, would have low DCs. You could use the skill to identify dialects of languages you know, too. Hm, I like this idea...
I was going to suggest this one and I've already used it in my game and it worked out great.
One could make the language cost as
Speaking basic language (to get around and do trade), costs 1 skill point
Speaking fluently, cost 2 skills points
Reading and writing, costs 1 skill point.
So to be fully fluent and be able to read and write a language, it would cost 3 skill points. Though learning languages is often related primary to one's ability of memory recall and secondly analytical ability, a limitation on how many additional languages one can learn is determined by natural INT modifier (no magical temporary enhancements that increase INT).
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Ok, here are my brand spanking new Language-learning rules:
Sample DCs:
DC 10: Common, Orc
DC 15: Dwarven, Goblin, Halfling
DC 20: Elven, Gnome
DC 25: Draconic, Aquan, Ignan
DC 30: Infernal, Celestial, Druidic
A character with a fluent teacher receives a +5 bonus on their check.
Well, what do you think?
I would also like to see learning languages separated from Linguistics. This "auto-learning" makes Linguistics too powerful, IMO.
Starting languages should be handled as normal, with additional languages purchased as follows (basically using the 3.x Speak Language as a "cross-class" skill, but including a partial benefit):
1pt gives the ability to convey and understand basic information (simple concepts like "how much?" or "which way?"); effectively what Linguistics should provide, but without the need for a skill roll
2pts gives full fluency
Optionally, this could only apply to spoken communication, requiring an additional point for literacy.
If I may input my 2cp.
Language, root languages, their derivatives and cryptology are connected. By understanding the structure of a Root Language it becomes easier to discover the differences and nuances of the derivative languages. Word and letter substitution/scrambles/etc. (and mathematics) are the roots of cryptology and ciphers. Someone with a greater talent for language tends to excel at these pursuits.
This would be my suggestion.
Use root and derivative languages. While I realize this is a more complex way to handle the system, its also much more rewarding. Anyone who can speak 17 languages would be a bit too akin to a god IMO.
If you separate the languages into categories (like my example) and determine how related certain languages are. In PF, Azlanti would be a major root language for the Avistan region obviously. Whatever the main language the character knows, each step removed from that increases the DC to decipher it by 5. Esoteric concepts under discussion tend to create more complex text that makes it more difficult to understand and would continue to follow the normal rules for Linguistics.
For the Languages, I would suggest requiring learning the spoken language and the written/read language seperately. So 1 skill point = Speak Varisian, another = Read/Write Varisian. Also, for Obscure/Dead Languages, like Thassilonian or Old Azlanti, cost two skill points each to learn how to speak and how to Read/Write (or four skill points total for the complete language).
I would suggest this mainly because it is not inconceivable for someone to speak as many as 8-10 languages. Extremely rare actually, but I knew someone who could, professionally and with great facility. Rank 20, which not so many characters will have, should account for that.
I also did this professionally as a Cryptologic Linguist for the US Military for a few years before I decided that it wasn't the sort of work I wanted to do. Thanks. See my example as follows....
Linguistics (Int, Trained Only)
Deciphering a language is not easy. One of the first things to look for when trying to figure out a language is repeated words or similarities of usage. By doing this you start to form patterns and can start begin breaking down a language. I am not going to go into everything, but this is the framework I use.
Learning Languages:
1 Skill Point: Learn either a new Language: Speak or Read/Write
2 Skill Points: Learn a new Dead/Lost Language: Speak or Read/Write
Note that learning to both Read/Write and Speak Varisian would cost 2 skill points. Learning to both Speak and Read/Write Thassilonian would cost 4 skill points.
Check DCs
-Simple Content 20
-Standard Content 25
-Complex/Esoteric Content 30
Modifiers
-You know the language! Automatic Success. Yes, I have had someone try to decipher one of their known languages before...it was bad handwriting..
-Living/Known Language 0
-Dead/Lost Language +10
-Related Language (1 step) -5
-Related Language (2 step) -2
-Unrelated Text +3
-Extremely Esoteric content may warrant an additional +5 to DC.
*Related Language: What this means is that the language you are trying to decipher is actually related to a language the character knowns already. Obviously, the farther removed the language is from the one you know, the harder it is to use that knowledge to help you understand this one. If the language is 1 step removed from the one you know, -5 from the DC. If it is two steps removed, then -2 from the DC. Three steps or beyond should simply be treated as an unrelated language.
*Unrelated Text: An unrelating text is a text that is conspicuously missing repeated words. Without those to help you start deciphering the text, it becomes that much harder. +3 DC. Note that writing and Unrelating Text is not easy and has to be done deliberately and with care. Even doing so, it, do, so, etc. are still going to reoccur, just not more subjective words.
The Price of Failure
If you fail to decipher the content, the verbiage of unknown languages can be confusing. Make a DC 10 Wisdom check or you draw the wrong conclusion entirely by misinterpreting the text. <----I think this is more likely than DC 5. Languages often have multiple interpretations of a word, sometimes dependent on context, sometimes on other factors. Take a look at the various forms of Latin, you'll see what I mean.
I've dealt with it by making literacy and conversational ability both count. Linguistics still grants languages, then, but at a slower rate:
1 rank: Speak 1 more language, but can't read it.
2 ranks: Read that additional language as well.
3 ranks: Speak or read a second additional language.
4 ranks: Speak AND read that second language.
(etc.)
I'm in favor of languages being learned fairly easily in-game, because there's nothing more annoying than role-playing pantomime for six or eight sessions in a row. Once or twice in a campaign can be interesting, but after that it's just a needless pain in the neck.
Haven't read all ideas but I would keep it simple like this.
Base languages as per normal rules.
Ligustics reflects how well you can speak a language (all of languages you know, same to same with reading)
Adding a language would cost one skill rank.
This is not perfect, it has flaws, but in terms of a game it works well enough. Moreover it keeps the Rogue and Bard at an advantage, but still cost them points to be really good at anything.