Ok I had this idea for metamagic. What do you think?
This idea would take the metamagic feats and alter the way they work. Instead of allowing you to adjust spell level to get an additional effect, the feat would allow you to use the effect on-the-fly a set number of times per day. Similiar to the 'sudden' feats.
The number of uses per day would be based on the original spell level modifier. The feats would be usable once per day, plus extra times based upon the total number of metamagic feats you have. This will work for any spellcaster, including ranger and paladin.
EX)A character has the following feats:extend, empower, maximize, and quicken. They would be usable as follows:
extend- (originally a +1 spell level) usable once per day plus one for each metamagic feat(including itself) = 5/day
empower- (originally a +2 spell level) now usable once per day plus once for each two metamagic feats(including itself) = 3/day
maximize- (originally a +3 spell level) now usable once per day plus once per three metamagic feats (including itself) = 2/day
quicken- (originally a +4 spell level) now usable once per day plus once per four metamagic feats (including itself) = 2/day
The feats' effect would be otherwise unchanged from original form. There should also be a mitigating factor. Using a metamagic feat in this fashion should be a full round casting action to use.( In the case of quicken, it will allow two spells cast the following round.) This prevents the feats from becoming too powerful, and also gives extra incentive to bring back concentration(for making those checks if you get damaged).
The feats may or may not need prerequisites changed for this. And the metamagic rods could be used as-is or changed to give extra uses.
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It's a different approach than what I've been toying with.
Here's my approach:
To cast a metamagic feat, the caster must sacrifice a number of hit points equal to the additional spell slots required for that feat (instead of sacrificing the spell slots themselves). Also, in a 24 hr. period, once the number of hit points lost exceeds the caster's Con Mod, he must make a Fort Sv v. Spell DC or become fatigued. If he fails, the next time the Sv. becomes v. Exhausted and he can no longer cast metamagic-augmented spells until rested.
Magical healing does not off-set the tracking requirement that leads to a Fort Sv.
In the end, I'm sure that there are many ways to approach metamagic feats differently. I'm just hoping Paizo does.
humm both much better then the current rules
My high-level sorcerer would give the first system a C+ (to be able to quicken three spells a day I need 8 metamagic feats, and even then it's not really quickening the spell!) and the second system an F (his spell DCs are generally better than his Fort save).
Hey Hogarth,
Instead of just grading . . . why don't you offer some suggestions?
It'd be more productive.
Well, I thought the implication was obvious: I would prefer to keep metamagic the way it is. (I'd give the current system a "B".)
Having said that, I don't have any complaints about using the Sudden Metamagic feats from Complete Arcane as well. And I'd like to see sorcerers able to use the Quicken Spell feat without having to resort to non-Core feats and alternate class features.
O.K. -- here's my alternate suggestion then:
For spontaneous casters: Keep metamagic as-is, except adding metamagic to a spell does not take a full round to cast.
For prepared casters: They can use metamagic as-is (i.e. preparing a spell in a higher slot) OR they can apply it on the fly at the cost of the original spell + a higher level slot. For instance, a wizard has the 1st level spell Shield prepared, but later on he decides he wants to Quicken it. So he uses his prepared Shield spell and on top of that has to sacrifice one of the 5th level spells he prepared that morning.
Here's what I do.
You can take a spell, add a metamagic feat to it, and add it to your spells known or your spellbook at the increased level without requiring said metamagic feat. For example, you could take quickened magic missile as a 5th level spell known whether you know quicken spell or not.
If you actually take the feat, you can apply the metamagic feat to any spell 3/day, but your caster level determines the level of the spell you can modify by extrapolating the empower/quicken spell-like ability tables in the MM.
Here's what I do.
You can take a spell, add a metamagic feat to it, and add it to your spells known or your spellbook at the increased level without requiring said metamagic feat. For example, you could take quickened magic missile as a 5th level spell known whether you know quicken spell or not.
If you actually take the feat, you can apply the metamagic feat to any spell 3/day, but your caster level determines the level of the spell you can modify by extrapolating the empower/quicken spell-like ability tables in the MM.
That's not bad. Isn't there something similar to the last bit in Unearthed Arcana?
That's not bad. Isn't there something similar to the last bit in Unearthed Arcana?
There might be; I'm not sure. I modeled it after the sudden metamagic feats and the way monsters (and possibly PCs) can modify their spell-like abilities.
I just didn't like the way that metamagic feats were balanced in that an empowered fireball is the equivalent of a 5th level spell for damage, but you had to take a feat to learn it. They're both 5th level spells! It's like having to take a feat to learn a 5th level spell even though you can already cast them.
The sudden feats are interesting, but only 1/day doesn't make them worth taking. But limiting how powerful a spell you can affect and making it 3/day makes it worthwhile to take, IMHO.
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You can take a spell, add a metamagic feat to it, and add it to your spells known or your spellbook at the increased level without requiring said metamagic feat.
Wouldn't this just basically give metamagic to wizards for free? I guess if they have to acquire each version of a spell separately this is ok. swift magic missile, and maximized magic missile would both have to be gotten separately.
I like Hogarth's idea of sacrificing a second spell to feed a metamagic feat. Also, I've never understood why sorcerers get punished with a full round adding meta-magic. Just doesn't make sense to me.
The idea of burning HP to feed spells should perhaps be a different feat, I think there is something like that in complete mage. Your 1HP/ spell level is almost a no brainer. I would make it 1d6 of nonlethal damage for every spell level sacrificed.
As for the original poster's idea, it seems a little complicated. I am a fan of simple rules.
- Dennis
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The idea of burning HP to feed spells should perhaps be a different feat, I think there is something like that in complete mage. Your 1HP/ spell level is almost a no brainer. I would make it 1d6 of nonlethal damage for every spell level sacrificed.
I could live with nonlethal. The reason I say actual HP is to add some salt to the wound. I don't want metamagic to be laissez faire (sp?). Of course, 1d6 nonlethal would be on par with subsequent fatigue, exhaustion, and then unconsciousness.
The next point merits some comments.
So, the spellcaster is fatigued? So what? Drink a potion. Receive a healing spell. Voila!
At first, I would have argued that the caster can't recover from this sort fo fatigue absent rest. That would make the decision to use metamagic much more weighty.
However, on the flip side, your team mates might tire of wasting healing spells (that would go to the remainder of the group) to compensate. (Or otherwise, the sacrifice is felt by the group as a whole and can be roleplayed through.)
For purposes of simplicity, I would go with the latter.
I'm one of those guys who usually like to mess with the rules, always trying to optimize something, make something better, have lots of house rules (not that I use them all.. but still). But in this case I must stick with the core rules, am I the only one who likes Metamagic as it is? But anyway.. here's my 1 CP...
Absolutely don't like this concept of improving (or using more) feats the more you have of the same kind... The reasoning behind this is not of my style definetively.
Now, burning your life force to empower spells... yeah.. this is good. Though I thought you started getting too complex, with those saves and tests and all... Leave the core rules and also let casters who don't want/can't spend more higher level slots burn their Con instead. No more 5th level slots and wanna Empower that fireball?? -2 Con...
I'd would suggest longer casting time to reduce the penalty by 1 (it could be a feat though, not a rule), maybe casting a Standard-Action Spell with 1 minute would reduce the penalty by 1. It's like taking your time to cast it more relaxed, slowly taking your time...
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I like having the application of a Metamagic affect to the spell being a Spellcraft check.
ie, if the spellcaster takes the appropriate feat, then anytime he wishes to modify a soell he makes a spellcraft check, with the DC being set by the level the metamagic increased the spell...
DC 15 for 1 level increase. Dc 20 for 2 level increase. DC 25 for 3 level increase. DC 30 for 4 level increase...etc.
Synergy bonus' are applied for Knowledge Arcanna +2 and Concentration +2 for 5+ ranks.
Its clean, quick and makes it possible for a caster to use the feat more often...and it makes spellcraft ranks valuable to the casters....
I like having the application of a Metamagic affect to the spell being a Spellcraft check.
ie, if the spellcaster takes the appropriate feat, then anytime he wishes to modify a soell he makes a spellcraft check, with the DC being set by the level the metamagic increased the spell...
DC 15 for 1 level increase. Dc 20 for 2 level increase. DC 25 for 3 level increase. DC 30 for 4 level increase...etc
I've said this elsewhere, but the problem with giving "good stuff" in exchange for static skill checks is that it's hard to set the DCs so that they're achievable by "honest" characters (e.g. a character who maxes out a skill and maybe takes Skill Focus, but that's it) but aren't abusable by "dishonest" characters (e.g. a character who maxes out a skill, then stacks on a whole bunch of skill enhancing magic items, spells, etc.).
Why not just modify the Barbarians Rage Points Mechanic?
Spell Shaping Points
At 1st Level SS Points are allocated as: 4 + Key Ability Modifier points at first level.
After first level points are accumulated at a rate of: 2 + Key Ability.
You could apply Metamagic Feats as triple their original cost.
Example:
Empower: 6 Points
Enlarge: 3 Points
Extended: 3 Points
Heighten: Varies, 3 Points per Spell Level Increase
Maximize: 9 Points
Quicken: 12 Points
Silent: 3 Points
Still: 3 Points
Widen: 9 Points
This way the more powerful metamagic feats could be used sparingly or you would use up all of your points at low level. And as you accumulate more at higher level you can cast them a bit more often.
Of course the Accumulation of points could be adjusted to whatever would be more agreeable if people think casters get too many points too soon. Could go by Key Ability Modifier each level to lower it some.
I just really liked the Rage Points and figured this wonderful mechanic could be used for metamagic aswell.
I've never understood the call to drop the full round casting time for spontaneous casters, what reason is there for it other than wanting everything for free?
Well, I just want sorcerers to be able to use Quicken Spell; removing the extra time is a simple way to allow it. I don't really care whether Empower Spell takes a standard action or a full action, though.
I've never understood the call to drop the full round casting time for spontaneous casters, what reason is there for it other than wanting everything for free?Well, I just want sorcerers to be able to use Quicken Spell; removing the extra time is a simple way to allow it. I don't really care whether Empower Spell takes a standard action or a full action, though.
Perfect Hogarth, it's my opinion also. Any other metamagic could take a full round to cast, no problem, just change Quicken. C'mon, it's already a 4 spell level increase! Since Sorceres get higher spell slots later than Wizards they are already being penalized.
What I think about Wizards (of the Coast) is that they overestimated spontaneus casting, sure it's good, it's great. But they ruined the Sorcerer because of that.
Use of metamagic feats? Full round to cast, you can already cast it spontaneously. Quicken Spell? No, you cast spells spontaneously, no Quicken for you. Leveling up? Wait a little more, stay a level behind the wizard for those higher slots, you already cast spells spontaneously. Special abilities? Hell no!! You can cast spells spontaneously, no need for more special abilites. Extra feats? Never!! You cast spells spotaneously, it's more than any feat would give you!
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I've said this elsewhere, but the problem with giving "good stuff" in exchange for static skill checks is that it's hard to set the DCs so that they're achievable by "honest" characters (e.g. a character who maxes out a skill and maybe takes Skill Focus, but that's it) but aren't abusable by "dishonest" characters (e.g. a character who maxes out a skill, then stacks on a whole bunch of skill enhancing magic items, spells, etc.).I like having the application of a Metamagic affect to the spell being a Spellcraft check.
ie, if the spellcaster takes the appropriate feat, then anytime he wishes to modify a soell he makes a spellcraft check, with the DC being set by the level the metamagic increased the spell...
DC 15 for 1 level increase. Dc 20 for 2 level increase. DC 25 for 3 level increase. DC 30 for 4 level increase...etc
That is a good point. That being said, I wouldn't sacrifice a good mecahnic because of dishonest players...but would rather leave it in the hands of the DM to adjust....or go as far as put in a clause that says that success on these checks is not obtained through skill enhancement items or spells...
Attempting to refine the idea I originally had:
Spell Shaping Points
You gain points based on your Caster Level. There are magic items and such to improve that so that could satiate anyone wanting to maximize their potential in the usage of metamagic.
Example, based on their slots so that its easier to convert:
Empower: 2 Points
Enlarge: 1 Points
Extended: 1 Points
Heighten: Varies, 1 Points per Spell Level Increase
Maximize: 3 Points Prereq: 9th level caster
Quicken: 4 Points Prereq: 12th level caster
Silent: 1 Points
Still: 1 Points
Widen: 3 Points
This way the power is cut down a bit from the original post aswell as making it easier to convert over instead of tripling the particular point/slot.
And for further usage as some of us like to rely on different kinds of metamagic: Note: These would be Bonus Feats to Sorcerors at 6th, 10th, and 12th levels. (The limitation on Sorcerors having to take a full round action being dropped to improve this even more.)
Spell Shaper
Prereq: 5th level Caster
+2 Spell Shaper Points
Greater Spell Shaper
Prereq: 9th level Caster, Spell Shaper
+4 Spell Shaper Points
Master Spell Shaper
Prereq: 12th level Caster, Spell Shaper, Greater Spell Shaper
+6 Spell Shaper Points
This way a Sorceror would put its fluff ability of using its own will to cast spells to augment their spells in a meaningful way without being penalized. Aswell as Wizards benefiting from using their spells without having to have them prepared before hand. The Sorceror would just have a slight edge to start with.
I've never understood the call to drop the full round casting time for spontaneous casters, what reason is there for it other than wanting everything for free?Well, I just want sorcerers to be able to use Quicken Spell; removing the extra time is a simple way to allow it. I don't really care whether Empower Spell takes a standard action or a full action, though.
I'm not sure how but Jason has suggested somewhere on the boards that quicken WILL work for the sorcerer. Whether this will effect all meta-magic or not is not clear.