On Knowledge

[carturo222]

Brief thoughts: (Nobility) feels weird for clerics, as does (Geography) for druids. Paladins should have (History). Monks have more use for (Religion) than for (History).

[Pneumonica]

carturo222 wrote:

Brief thoughts: (Nobility) feels weird for clerics, as does (Geography) for druids. Paladins should have (History). Monks have more use for (Religion) than for (History).

Broken down by item, in order.

Historically, priests were generally nobles (at least petty nobles), and clerics have a long standing D&D tradition of being one of the more likely PC classes to, even at low levels, deal directy with the nobility.

Nature-worshippers I would think would make an avid study of geography, to know the layouts and environments, and to understand the earth in all its shapes and forms.

I sit the fence on giving paladins History. Yes, I can see reason for it, but I can also see reasons for Sorcerers to have Knowledge (Architecture), too. It makes more sense as a cross-class skill, or whatever they're calling non-class skills these days.

Monks are presented as agnostic, humanist, militant philosophers. While they might individually worship a god, as a group they don't follow a faith so much as a tradition.

[carturo222]

Well argued. I withdraw my requests.

[Kirth Gersen]

With so many skills being rolled together (Hide, Move Silently, etc.) it seems somehow awkward to still have like 10 different Knowledge skills. We're experimenting with rolling Knowledge (arcana) into Spellcraft (Concentration is restored as a separate skill);
Knowledge (the planes) and Knowledge (religion) are combined as Knowledge (Powers & Planes);
Knowledge (nature) is subsumed into Survival;
Knowlegde (dungeoneering) is subsumed into Profession (miner);
Knowledge (local) is combined with Gather Information as Streetwise; and we have 2 other Knowledge skills: Lore (history, legendary places, etc.) and Warfare (tactics, strategy, siege engineering, ranks & insignia).

[superpriest]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

With so many skills being rolled together (Hide, Move Silently, etc.) it seems somehow awkward to still have like 10 different Knowledge skills. We're experimenting with rolling Knowledge (arcana) into Spellcraft (Concentration is restored as a separate skill);

Knowledge (the planes) and Knowledge (religion) are combined as Knowledge (Powers & Planes);
Knowledge (nature) is subsumed into Survival;
Knowlegde (dungeoneering) is subsumed into Profession (miner);
Knowledge (local) is combined with Gather Information as Streetwise; and we have 2 other Knowledge skills: Lore (history, legendary places, etc.) and Warfare (tactics, strategy, siege engineering, ranks & insignia).

Those are decent ideas, except Profession (miner), which is pretty lame and not really what dungeoneering covers.

[Kirth Gersen]

superpriest wrote:

Those are decent ideas, except Profession (miner), which is pretty lame and not really what dungeoneering covers.

Yeah, I'm on the fence about that one. I'd designed it based on the stereotypical underground-dwelling mining creatures in fantasy, and figured those critters would know more about underground locations than surface dwellers. I rolled the dwarven Stonecunning abilities into that skill to give it some actual usefulness, and just gave dwarves a racial bonus. Not sure how well this will work in actual play; it's still a work in progress. So far only one character has selected this skill: a wizard converted from earlier editions, who'd adventured in the 2e Greyhawk Ruins and became fascinated with the mining operations there, and with the various forms of underground life.

[thelesuit]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

With so many skills being rolled together (Hide, Move Silently, etc.) it seems somehow awkward to still have like 10 different Knowledge skills. We're experimenting with rolling Knowledge (arcana) into Spellcraft (Concentration is restored as a separate skill);

Knowledge (the planes) and Knowledge (religion) are combined as Knowledge (Powers & Planes);
Knowledge (nature) is subsumed into Survival;
Knowlegde (dungeoneering) is subsumed into Profession (miner);
Knowledge (local) is combined with Gather Information as Streetwise; and we have 2 other Knowledge skills: Lore (history, legendary places, etc.) and Warfare (tactics, strategy, siege engineering, ranks & insignia).

Except for the Know/Dungeoneering and Profession/Miner coupling, these seem like very reasonable combinations.

I could either way with the Knowledge/Arcana-Spellcraft-Concentration combination. I always think of Knowledge/Arcana as knowing magic while Spellcraft is doing magic (this would be an argument for keeping Knowledge/Arcana and Spellcraft distinct and rolling Concentration into Spellcraft). Or Spellcraft could be a case of "the more you do -- the more you know, the more you know -- the more you do". I could really go either way. But it should certainly be one-way or the other.

CJ

[Arnim Thayer]

One of the few things I like about 4E is the condensing of the Knowledge skills. Certain knowledge skills (such as Nobility) could easily be added into a skill like knowledge (Local) or Knowledge (History) without making that big of an imact on the game.

As and aside, the only other thing I like about 4E is the Skill Challenges; earning XP for using skills is an awesome and obvious idea. And allowing for other skills to be used to Aid Other is useful too.

[Steven Hume]

Arnim Thayer wrote:

One of the few things I like about 4E is the condensing of the Knowledge skills. Certain knowledge skills (such as Nobility) could easily be added into a skill like knowledge (Local) or Knowledge (History) without making that big of an imact on the game.

As and aside, the only other thing I like about 4E is the Skill Challenges; earning XP for using skills is an awesome and obvious idea. And allowing for other skills to be used to Aid Other is useful too.

man arent PCs level fast enough without more ways to gain XP, i mean i am scared to hand out story XP or RP XP as my pcs are advancing so fast in 3.5 game. i cant wait till i start a PFG game so i can slow them down to my speed(yes i know i could try to do in my game now but i got a much of whinie players that would not go for it, they already not looking forward to moving their PCs at 10th lvl from 3.5 to this system so i can test high lvl play.)